Build quality of new v.s old

Though this particular discussion is verging towards pointlessness, perhaps you should consider that tax structures at different places and various other costs which include the cost of doing business differ and that the U.S. in that way is relatively better placed. Mind..when I say tax structure, I don't mean your personal income tax.

And, logically, it would appear that advances in technology would yeild better products - leaving aside nostalgia. I would think the same applies to ThinkPads.

 

In my opinion, IBM spent much money for R&D, so their Thinkpads leaded the market by innovative technologies & excellent build quality.

Lenovo cut down R&D cost, so other competitors caught up. Thinkpad leads laptop technologies no more. The only thing remains is build-quality.

Many people lost their faiths when Thinkpad became a Lenovo's trademark. I don't see any problems here. The world is flat. Lenovo sells their Thinkpads all around the world. If build-quality was drop down, simply, customers stop buying them. That's a simple rule of market. But I see a lot of people who owned IBM Thinkpad(s) before buy a new Lenovo Thinkpad and be satisfied.

Lenovo broaden Thinkpad trademark. SL, Edge,... That's their business. But I think, class and quality of T/X series still remain.

 

Actually, the exact opposite is true.

Here's a quote from a recent interview with IBM/Lenovo's David Hill:

"It was clear to me during the last five or six years managing the design of IBM's personal computer business that they were slowly shutting off the hot water if you will in the shower. That the development budgets were becoming smaller and smaller and it was more and more focused on product areas outside of the personal computer. So it was really very refreshing for me to walk into this new company, Lenovo, and see that their focus was 100% on making personal computers. I have often stated that IBM never would have made the ThinkPad X300. And I believe that to be true, because they were turning their sights in a different direction, on services and software and more on servers and this sort of thing."

 

Price in Australia for Thinkpads dropped substantially after Lenovo took over. Regarding Europe, the price is high due various tariffs, taxes and expensive pension fund that companies have to pay for their employees. Anyone whom have done business in Europe, would know how much more expensive it is compared to countries like USA or Australia.

You could use your same argument for Benz, Porsche, BMW, etc comparing the prices between USA and Europe.

 

yes ... and for cars. A car I am looking at is 30,000 AUD in Oz and some 40,000 Euros in Europe ... same car. I own a T61 and T400 Lenovo. The T61 feels more solid, the T400 came with a bump above the media keys in the plastic. I thought the keyboard di not sit right but I cannot make it sit better so the bump in the plastic is still there. T61 is in my view a better machine. Screen has better colours as well, not as washed out. T400 I am selling due to LED screen problems. I did not know Elitebooks were any cheaper than Lenovos in Europe. Here in Holland they are definitely not. I am looking at a Probook from UK at about 540 pounds.

 

Oh come on. I still remember people complaining about the uneven gap between the ThinkPad T40 Ultrabay Slim slot and the Ultrabay Slim DVD-ROM drives... that was in 2003 when ThinkPads were still expensive made-by-IBM machines.

I know it is tempting to fantasize about the good old days, but almost every ThinkPad has its own quirks -- even back in the IBM days.

 

Yes but, the point is, sure they might be keeping/watering down the things IBM was famous in it's ThinkPads for, but they aren't really continuing the tradition and introducing many innovations, IMO other than the stronger chassis/thinner keyboard backplate, the T400/T500 were much the same as the T61/p's.

 

Yes, but even IBM didn't make radical changes every generation (in fact, Thinkpads are often know for not changing) - there was little difference, for example, between the T42 and T43.

But I think it's blind to say that Lenovo's not innovating the Thinkpad line - the keyboard was recently tweaked between the Tx00 and Tx10 generations, new higher-capacity batteries and a slice battery were introduced, a new improved hot-swappable docking connector standard was adopted, USB 3.0 was even introduced on the W510, and very amazing port selections are available on both the T510 and T410 - all while maintaining the build quality that IBM Thinkpads were famous for.

 

Lenovo maintaining build quality? are you joking?

I will never buy any Lenovo again, they are cheap and they are nasty, you get what you pay for, but they have nothing in common with the old Thinkpads which was renowned for build quality, innovation and being the best PC notebook

Those days are gone.

 

Please be reasonable. if you have a chance to see the new W510 then you would agree with me that both finish and built quality are much better than the IBM's thinkpad.
Regarding innovation, i am glad that lenovo keep their thinkpad simple and functional. I am a purist and Minimalist, i dont want any nonsense on my laptop. Lenovo thank you!

 

i thought Thinkpads were not cheap according you several posts back, or did you forget what you said?

So how many thinkpads have you owned over the year?

 

Think we just have another troll again. It is always annoying when business laptop discussion turns into anit-this or that or fanboyism...

 

Think twice!

cheap in regards to quality, not price.

@jaredy
And i don't like the fanboyism by some in this thread either, Lenovo is nothing else than a budget brand today.

 

I agree with you somewhat.. I think the fit and finish of the new Lenovo laptops can improve.. They don't quite compare to other laptops (Dell, Sony etc). However, I do think that the build quality is equal if not greater in terms of durability. There is no way in telling though.. Lenovo laptops are built mostly from plastic and there are laptops out there that are made out of different metals which can only benefit the durability/fit and finish. That's not to say that the inside of Lenovo laptop is not metal.

 

let me paraphrase what you said to freshen up your memory, I will never buy any Lenovo again, they are cheap and they are nasty, you get what you pay for.

So when you concluded that sentence with 'you get what you pay for', were you not at all discussing the price of Thinkpads?

-----------

Also @BNHabs:

Only the SL and R series exterior use an all ABS-PC polymer mixture casing, while the W and T series use a ABS/PC top (depending on the model) and Carbon Fibre reinforced polymer bottom casing.

T400s/T410s use a carbon fibre/glass fibre reinforced polymer top and magnesium alloy bottom.

The X series (apart from X100e) use either an all magnesium alloy casing or mixture of Magnesium alloy bottom with Glass Fibre Reinforced Polymer top casing.

 

From what I have read, it appears that both the R and T series all feature the same magnesium roll cage used in the lid and main body chassis. Top case material feature Super-Elastic PolyCarbonate (SEPC) and the bottom case: Carbon-Fiber Reinforced Plastic. I think you will find a reference to this in the tabook.

Edit: I think what jaredy says in the post above (#62) is true. This is becoming a troll-driven discussion.

 

@lidvik

Lenovo is not a value brand. Many of the OEMs are not value brands. They have value brand lines but the companies as a whole are usually not positioned exclusively to be value/low-end. Granted Dells server line is more value oriented.

Acer and the Gateway brand could be considered more value oriented, but Lenovo is definitely not solely a value brand on the cheap...

 

Thinking a bit more about the build quality, I suppose the only thing that I would worry about is the lettering from the keypad fading away...but then again, the same happened to me on my IBM-era laptop too...

I wonder how to prevent this from happening.

 

Depends on how oily your hands are. My keys are decently shiny but no letting is gone since there is that coating over the letter itself. But I imagine it would take a lot of use. And people who use their laptops that much are likely touch typist anyways.

 

You can call lenovo sales and complain about the Flex keyboard problem and ask for second keyboard. Then you have a spare keyboard! Lots of people doing it.

 

Err...thanks, but no thanks! I'd prefer to be upfront about these matters. As and when the lettering on my keyboard fades away, I'll ask for a new keyboard - and, if necessary, pay for it. As for my existing keyboard, there is no flex at all so no purpose in lying about it either to Lenovo or anyone else. Maybe I'm an idiot (quite likely that I am), but that's the way the cookie crumbles for me I guess.

@jaredy: OK. Thanks. Will keep in mind.

 

In my experience, the keys on my original T21 keyboard started to fade about a year after I got it(purchased used)... so it may have seen 3-4 years of hard use. I ended up replacing the keyboard about a year ago for posterity's sake. The keyboard itself still worked well, but the N, M, and B keys in particular were almost rubbed completely off. That notebook saw the majority of a 100K+ word story I was developing, so that may have attributed to some of the wear and tear.

Once again, I'm going to have to disagree with the people who say that the overall build quality has gone downhill. Seriously, I have every bit of confidence that any ThinkPad I've had(with unfortunate exception of the T40-series systems I had, due to the GPU flexing problems) would have outlasted my needs... I'd be retiring the system due to obsolescence before it stopped working. I have at least as much confidence in my T400 as I do my T21. If I can get a couple of true T60 NMB keyboards and a more potent processor I'll definitely be hanging onto it for a good long while.

I'm not tooting Lenovo's horn on this one, nor do I consider myself a ThinkPad fanboy. However, my experiences with other notebooks(Dells and HPs, mainly) has led me to believe that a ThinkPad is a great semi-rugged business notebook. the inclusion of a Trackpoint style pointing device seals the deal... I hate touchpads. I also have a 380ED from 1997 or so, as well as a pre-ThinkPad IBM PS/Note from 1992... both of these still work although I don't really use them anymore.

 

My X200 seems just as solid as any other ThinkPad I've used, except maybe the Z61m, which was a flippin tank.

 

Yes that is True for the R400, which is pretty much a T400 in disguise (which i should have mentioned and forgot). But the R500 is all just basic ABS-PC material with the bottom Mg rollcage.

Regarding the keyboard, it shouldn't fade unless you use it a lot, this you can prevent by getting a keyboard silicon protective cover, which does make the typing experience a bit different.

 

I do agree with some comments on here. After 5 years my refurbished Toshiba Portege is done, well the hard drive gave up but it's too obsolete to revive. It lasted a long time given that it was made from cheap plastic, fell countless times etc. Back on a T61 which is too heavy really. My T400 is being on-sold and yes I do think the T61 is better quality AND better screen. The one thing I would hope for is a true metal look Lenovo. Plastic in whatever form always feels cheap. But the metal alloys are very nice especially if also used around keyboard etc. Did you know that most radiation of a laptop comes through your hands because tha is where most manufacturers use the cheap plastic, yes Lenovo as well. I typed 1000s of mails, wrote many many reports etc on my Toshiba and the letters never faded at all, the keys did get shiny though.

 

what radiation are we talking about here? EM radiation?

Alloy casing is good, but when you drop it and fracture it, it can be an expensive replacement. A small crack on X series laptop's Mg casing would easily propagate and would eventually require the replacement of the entire casing. And superglue is not going to fix the issue like it does with the CFRP/GFRP or ABS-PC casing.

A thin aluminum or magnesium plate is not going to stop much EM radiation.

 

So, does this mean that the R500 is structurally a trifle weaker than the R/T 400?

 

the screen part is weaker, but the bottom part is actually stronger due to the thicker Mg rollcage as compared to the T500 or T400.

R500 is designed to a desktop replacement, so you are not suppose to carry it around with you all day.

I use to carry a 15.4 inch R61 around, it was just too big. I guess this is why Road warriors love the x series laptop.

 

@lead_org...

OK. Thanks. I should also mention that you are a wonderful storehouse of information and knowledge about the ThinkPad machines!

Thanks for sharing what you know around! I, for one, have immensely benefitted from what you have shared on this forum and elsewhere.

Cheers!

 

Ditto, my sister's 15.4" R61e is a beast to carry around for long periods. 14.1" is pretty much the ideal maximum for people who's constantly on the move, though most people would go for the X-series due to their sheer portability.

 

Never used a X-Series, but the 14.1" (R series) that I have is very convenient as compared to the 15.4" Acer that I used previously. I must say that after having got the ThinkVantage Utilities and updated all drivers etc., the machine is a dream to work on. The only thing is that I have yet to get used to is the TrackPoint...I guess I am too used to my Logitech Nano.

The real test of the sturdiness (build quality) and ease of mobility of the R400 (for me) will begin next week when I begin traveling like mad!

 

interesting thread. i've been using a 7 year old T41 myself and have had no problems with it whatsoever. build quality of this thing is solid as a rock and the keyboard is the best i've used on either a notebook or a desktop (used to favor the apple aluminum keyboard until this thing trounced it). naturally i'm worried about the known gpu problem but no issues yet! *knocks on wood*

From what I can tell handling other people's thinkpads and seeing them at stores like NCIX i concur that the build quality has definitely improved in years past since the IBM days. The lower prices are really just the icing on the cake. Build + price makes the thinkpad brand the only brand of notebook i'll buy anymore after countless BS experiences with other brands. ESPECIALLY Dell. Ugh.

As for netbooks i think any brand will suffice since they're cheaply built by definition; even the lenovo ones.

 

I'm not so sure that they are all built cheaply. My EEE 1000H is better built than almost every full size laptop I've gotten my hands on. Note I haven't had my hands on a thinkpad before. But compared to "consumer" laptops, my 1000H is built like a tank. At least that's been my experience...

 

Netbooks have smaller foot prints so it is easier to deal with flex issues.

 

Apart from Sony (they like to charge premium for everything), most Netbooks of same feature would usually have a price difference within 100 dollars, while some brands like Acer or Asus sometimes offer cashback on their popular netbook models.

Also, most netbook designs are pretty much the same, so the only difference between netbooks are the price, brand, after sale service, keyboard size/feedback and screen size.

 

So, what is the consensus: Is the build quality of the IBM-era ThinkPads better or worse than the Lenovo ThinkPads?

Personally, I don't see a difference, but as you all know by now, I am not a sophisticated user like most of you folks. Perhaps this thread needed a poll at the outset. Maybe it's not too late?

 

I think the general consensus is that Lenovo has improved and evolved the Thinkpad line for the better (most part).

Fit and finish and QC might not be quite the same, but overall the laptops are extremely competitive and have some of the top build quality and usability for business laptops in a general.

 

Your gut instinct is the best indicator of whether the build quality of the new thinkpad has improved or not.

 

One thing that I kind of miss from the T4x generation that I didn't see anyone mention yet: the rubberized coating on the inside surfaces of the Thinkpad, like on the X301. I really wish they carried that over the the other Thinkpads - it makes the machine look nicer overall.

 

which of the T4x had an internal rubberised coating on palmrest?

 

indeed the local computer store here in victoria got a big shipment from a local business of used t4x thinkpads. i don't recall rubberized palm rests on any of them.

 

I doubt that any IBM Thinkpads had passed these tests:

http://www.slashgear.com/eight-lenovo-thinkpads-hit-military-rugged-standards-2335468/

Build quality affects directly durability. Durability of new Thinkpads, IMO, is unquestionable.

 

So, another way of saying it is that ThinkPads rule...but not universally! And (stealing from another thread on NBR), the answer literally lies in your own hands. You are the best judge as to whether the newer ThinkPads are equal or better than the IBM-era machines.

Desite a few hiccups, I think this was a very informative thread.

 

Interesting to note that while the R400 is listed in the ThinkPads tested, the R500 is not, but both the T400 and the T500 are listed AND the SL300. Or, it could just be the case that Lenovo gave only these models to be tested.

 

Yah -- I agree entirely. Also, my experience when I had a small, somewhat indefinite problem with the "o" key on my X300 keyboard seeming to not register sometimes was that Lenovo sent me out a new keyboard under warranty immediately, but they wanted the old one back, which was just fine with me.

I'll also add I recently dropped this X300 a foot or two on its corner and it developed a 1/2" crack at the edge --- Since I have a 3yr depot warranty with ADP I send it in for repair and it came back with a completely repaired chassis, plus they went over the machine, reseated the DvD drive and replaced the hinges, which I hadn't even asked them to do. So I've had only excellent experiences with Lenovo's repair services.

Finally, on the topic of this thread, the X300 has IMO the best build quality of any laptop I've ever owned, including some older thinkpads (like an X41).

 

Maybe. I was surprised to read this. HP uses "business-rugged" to market their Elitebooks, which passed these tests, too. Lenovo doesn't. That may be the reason why R500 was not tested.

 

Can you please explain? I'm afraid I don't understand.

 

. You have heard of some ads about "business-rugged Thinkpads"? I haven't. But I heard a lot of ads about "business-rugged Elitebooks". IMO, Lenovo didn't focus on these tests. That may be why R500 was not sent to test.

 

@vimvq1987...ok...I see what you mean! Yeah...never heard of 'rugged' ThinkPads...unofficially, I think it is assumed that they are rugged!

 

ThinkPad has been passing those MIL-spec rugged tests, going at least as far back as 2007.

http://lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/?p=93

Lenovo also talks about X201 passing 8 MIL-spec rugged tests on their ThinkPad sites.

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/notebooks/thinkpad/x-series/gallery

The reason you have not heard about business-rugged ThinkPads is probably because Lenovo does not devote a lot of marketing effort on it.