Build quality of new v.s old

I am wondering if this topic has been discussed (probably) but I am sure many people have an opinion on it especially Lenovo owners and probably people who have considered a recent Thinkpad.

I also hope that owners of the older IBM Thinkpads will comment.

I am interested in learning of the differences and reading opinions about the new laptops compared to the ones that were under IBM. I know Lenovo bought them but how much has the quality gone down or maybe I should say changed? Maybe the change is just different and it's still decent business quality? That's what I want to know and to hear about the perspectives.

I can read the reviews here and the one on Notebookcheck but it is owners who can give the real scoop. Also, comparisons and thoughts about how they compare to the older Thinkpads (think T4x and T6x series, even the more portable X6x series) will help.

I am considering T410 and T510 for a new laptop. They're expensive but as long as coupons are available, they can become affordable (for me).

Finally, Lenovo is offering LED displays with a somewhat high res, are offering a digital video input port and eSATA port. These might be minor preferences but are close to being deal breakers if they are not there. While I can compromise on some, if hey are all there, then for me, the laptop becomes a contender. Thinkpads are known for being quality business machines but I would like to know how they are now - how much has the integrity of their hardware construction changed?

Thanks for any answers and comments!

 

Build quality is something that's discovered over time. The Core i machines are still pretty new. I don't know that you could say much about them durability wise. The newer machines I've seen have been very good, but I have not seen any of the Core i machines.

There's been good/bad for both the older and newer machines. The X200 is better than the X6x quality wise. When I wrote the X61 review for NBR I was amazed at how flexy the lid was. The T4x machines you referred were slim and sexy, but had rigidity issues due to the slimness. The T60 that replaced it was a much better machine in most ways, though a little thicker. The Tx00/Rx00 are solid, but the keyboard replacement was an accident waiting to happen.

Honestly, I think the best you can say is the quality yings and yangs over the years. You don't know until its time has past. Sometimes you'll buy a cheapie notebook and it'll last for a long time while others you drop a wad and it's nothing but trouble. Sometimes you just got to make a leap of faith and pray for the best.

If you know how to work the system like with coupons, you can get a ThinkPad for less than a notebook at BestBuy et al. Plus it'll offer you better quality and support. Lenovo has dropped the prices of ThinkPads by a 1/3 or more all while in my opinion retaining very good quality, which is a pretty impressive feat in my opinion.

 

Thanks for the comments, ZaZ! It helps in my comparisons. I am trying to determine overall quality and comparing to Dell, Asus and Sony laptops. I guess more the first two since they at least have 'business divisions.'

 

ZaZ reviewed the X61s with an ultralight LCD/lid. The ultralight lid is thinner and flexes more than the standard X61 lid. I haven't heard of any systemic issues with it or with X61/X61s build quality.

I think the more significant quality variations occur model vs model, or early in a model's life vs later, as opposed to IBM vs Lenovo.

 

Dell's consumer line laptops are not that good, then again i doubt that any consumer line laptops are of the same level of quality as the Business laptops. Dell Latitude laptop are okay, but their design changes all the time, if you don't have the Dell label on it, no one would know it is a dell laptop. There is no consistency in their design. Quality wise they are on par with Thinkpads in most areas, apart from the heatsink.

ASUS laptops are cheap, most of their laptops are ugly since these no visual consistency in design (just lot of unnecessary stickers and ugly plastics). Price is the main attraction towards ASUS laptop, otherwise people would just buy the Alienware for their game machines. (One could argue that the Lambo version of ASUS is really good, but the price is really expensive too).

Sony use to make quality laptops, but in the recent years, their laptop quality declined dramatically (this is across all their product line). IMHO their laptop is overpriced, and design wise it is better than most generic consumer laptops, but nothing that special.

Lenovo's Thinkpad still is the best, due to it staying true to its design element (probably have to do with the fact that Lenovo still use the same designer that IBM used for their laptop design. i.e. David Hill).

-Quality wise, Lenovo Thinkpads are better than IBM Thinkpads, due to the existence of the internal magnesium rollcage.
-Fit and finish wise, Lenovo Thinkpad's T and R series is not as good as the IBM T and R series, they are slightly bigger gaps in certain areas. But given how much cheaper the Lenovo Thinkpads compared to IBM Thinkpads was, i think this point is forgiven.

 

I don't know much about this that you are referring to. Would it be possible for you to explain this a bit or to point me to where I can find out more about what you are saying here?

Thanks

 

Starting from the T400, T500, R400, R500, X200, etc. Lenovo have changed the keyboard's backing plate from solid pate to perforated plate design, which according to Lenovo was done to save weight.

The perforated keyboard plate lacks the structural rigidity of the solid plate design, so in areas where there is lack of support i.e. around the upper left area, there is more flex than compared to the solid backplate keyboard.

For people whom don't use Thinkpads that much or never extensively used previous generations of the Thinkpads, they would usually not notice this problem. But for people whom use a lot of Thinkpads or punch the keys on their keyboard very hard, then there is discernible differences to be noticed.

Lenovo addressed this problem by either sending out the old solid plate keyboards and later adding backing plate on the upper left side of the laptop chassis (on selected laptop models).

 

Oh! How would I know if my R400 has the reworked keyboard or the old one? As of now, I find that my keyboard clicks a bit more than normal (as compared to an Acer 5920 and to a Sony Vaio). I can't feel any flex at all and the keyboard is (touchwood!) surprisingly responsive.

 

If your R400 keyboard suits you, why does it matter whether it's the old or new style?

To find out, remove it, flip it over and see whether the backing is perforated or not.

 

Sometimes there is no way to address the question of "why" aside from asserting it as being an expression of an innate curiosity. And, thanks for the answer.

 

Clicky response is not a bad thing depending on which keyboard you like for a thinkpad (NMB, Chicony, Alps). But if the keyboard bounces then that's an issue.

The x200 is mostly free from issues with the new keyboard design due to the small chassis. But you can get the keyboard to flex in certain areas, but not in the main keystroke areas with your strongest fingers.

 

in 2003 i purchased an IBM thinkpad x31 for about $2k
in 2008 i purchased a dell notebook to replace my old x31, actually i love my x31 but it was too slow, i wanted another thinkpad but at that time i didn't have enough budget, and i turned to cheap dell.
in 2009 i hated my dell so much...overheat, short battery life...it's not on par with thinkpad at all, from all aspects except lower price. fortunately i had enough budget, so i paid $1k to get an x200. one year passed i can't say x200(lenovo) is better than x31(ibm), but at least it's not worse than x31.
basically i feel their quality is the same, but lenovo thinkpad is 50% cheaper than ibm thinkpads.

i'm happy with my x200, but i need a smaller thinkpad with longer battery life, so i just ordered my 3rd thinkpad x201s.

one thing i'd like to clear: lenovo received a lot of criticism...but that doesn't mean lenovo is not as good as dell, or sony, or hp....because thinkpads' consumers and dell/sony's consumers are different! a lot of thinkpads' owners are working professionals, their expectation is higher than those school boys who own a dell. and because lenovo is a company from china, the brand image is not as strong as the big blue.

consider that you can have a thinkpad that has the same quality, but much cheaper than b4, thinkpad is still worth buying today.

 

What dell did you have? We've already pointed out that consumer lines are not comparable. That isn't really fair to compare either. Was it a D series latitude?

 

Thankfully the keyboard does not bounce! But how does one get to know which keyboard (NMB, Chicony, Alps) is installed on the machine?

Thanks

 

I believe you can check the FRU# or look under the keys (lifting them up to look under the key cap).

here is a link to see

 

I checked on the link and the part number I got for my machine is 42T3970.

But that still does not tell me which one it is. Or, am I missing something here?

Sorry...I meant to say, I checked on the link on the Lenovo site for Part Numbers.

 

The part number doesn't tell you as far as I know. They all have the same part number, however I think the FRU (on the actual keyboard itself if you take it off) will tell you. But you can also examine the keys.

 

OK. Thanks.

 

42T3970 - this should be the solid plate design.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lenovo-ThinkPad...temQQimsxZ20100308?IMSfp=TL100308154001r23034

 

here is my brief opinion build quality wise.

vanilla T400 that i had (2) were worse than previous T60 and T40 series that i've used. However the T400s that I have now is alot better than any of previous IBM/Lenovo T series models. The few X301 machines that some of my co-workers own are fantastic as well.

I have a W510 on order, hope its more similar to T400s than vanilla T400. T400 regular in my opinion was rather lackluster with build quality probably worse than Dell latitudes, being close to something Asus would put out.

 

My dell was actually an XPS1530, in feb 2008 it costed about $1.5k, top configuration at that time.

i know business and consumer lines are quite different, but i believe i should get what i paid for. 1.5k dell xps is high-end machine, but the build-quality was not comparable to thinkpad x series at all. this comparison is fair because the price is in the same range.

what i feel about dell is that, they just try to keep their cost/price as lower as possible for the consumer machines (that's why you can find more than 50% of school boys are dell owners), but they don't pay much effort into product design and quality. i found that my friend's newly-bought dell xps design is exactly the same as mine xps1530 bought 2 years ago (actually dell xps 15XX series was introduced in mid 2007). 3 years passed the design hasn't changed...

another thing made me unhappy is, it seems that dell seldom updates those drivers. but lenovo developers keep improving drivers and bios very frequently.

i never used dell business machines, so i can't comment on latitude build quality. but at least i know, dell's business machine is way more expensive than thinkpad. for example, x201($1k) vs dell e4200 ($1.5k), they're both ultrathin 12.1 business laptop, but dell costs 50% more than thinkpad, and i doubt that the quality/performance of e4200 will be better than x201.

i don't like dell but their laptop sales are so good....i like IBM but it failed...i'm so happy with lenovo's thinkpad but thinkpads market share is....i guess, less than one third of dell?

 

People keep using the 'cheaper' excuse of todays thinkpads compared to older generation IBM thinkpads.

The fact is, all technology gets cheaper. Sure, there appears to be some purposeful strategy by lenovo to make thinkpads cheaper, but technology in general gets cheaper over time, with more mature manufacturing techniques and better technology.

Computers alone were a fortune a long time ago and fit the size of a room. Nobody but governments could buy computers. Nowadays your average joe has a computer more powerful than the old computers. This alone says nothing about anything, other than that technology just gets cheaper with time.

 

computer does get cheaper as technology matures, but it will only do so to a certain point. Since the labour cost, capital input cost for design and manufacturing, raw material costs (this is on a steady rise for most materials) are not decreasing.... the price would only drop to so low, before there is no profit margin.

 

six years ago, IBM thinkpad was the most expensive laptop in this planet, even compared with other competitors' business line, thinkpad price was usually 50% percent higher.

today, compared with other business machines, lenovo thinkpad isn't expensive at all, sometimes much cheaper (eg, 1k x201 vs 1.6k dell e4200)

let's just say business line: IBM thinkpad price was 30%-50% higher than average, but today lenovo thinkpad price is almost the average level ( i feel x200/201 series much cheaper than dell and hp business machines)

all technology does get cheaper, but thinkpad price dropped much more than others.

 

Absolute nominal cost means nothing. As wallmage points out it is the relative pricing that matters.

Regarding dell though, the outlet has great deals and the mass roll out form factor (e6400) is a lot cheaper in corporate volume than the T400/t410 based off my anecdotal evidence from work and friends talking to Dell reps. My company use to use Z series Thinkpads but has had Dell contracts for the past couple years. We usually do 3 year business leases.

 

I don't see it. No worries, I'll ask the Lenovo Reseller I bought the machine from. Hopefully, he should be able to tell me. Thanks. But yes, given the descriptions I have read here and elsewhere, and given that I don't feel any kind of flex on the keyboard, it could be the solid plate design. I also seem to remember that the keyboard that sounds like it clicks is the Chicony, but, I could be wrong.

Edit: I don't know if this matters in any way, but my machine was constructed in Jan 2010.

 

That's flat out wrong.

 

it doesn't really matter when your machine is constructed, since it was made to order, parts could be interchanged at the request of the corporate customers.

 

Well, if the quality of the current ThinkPads is half as good as it was in 2000-2002, - I'm game!
My R40 (2002) is still up&running Ubuntu Karmic with all the effects on. Played all the biggest gaming titles from 2000 to 2005 (BG/NWN/AA2X/etc). On average the lappie was off maybe 8hrs in every 3-4months, when I wasn't gaming for 8-20hrs straight, was downloading stuff, playing music 24/7 and so on.
Not a single hardware failure in 8 years of aggressive use!
Once, I was too upset with the homework in Quantum Physics and smashed the lappie (I was bad ) - the HDD got a few bad sectors from the impact.
A couple of times the machine did fall while being on (from about 3 feet) didn't even blink.

Looking at the W510 at the moment but the only thing bothering me is its graphics card. It's not suited for occasional gaming. Wish they could offer us some SLI/CF capable systems with nice FHD AG RGB LED screens. Than I'd be sold hands down (or up )

 

Ya, graphics options aren't very impressive this time around.

 

Labor cost is going up big time in China and many manufacturers are having trouble finding employees now due to this new problem for them.

 

The quality of the R400 and R500 is definitely better than the R40 and R5x series, due to inclusion of the internal magnesium rollcage.

Regarding gaming stick with your Alienware M17x, don't think there is any laptop that rival a fully specced Alienware.

 

42T3970 is a perforated ALPS keyboard.

I had one in my T400 and just replaced it with a 42T3209 ALPS sent by lenovo warranty.

 

Chiming in with my general opinions of the myriad of T-series I have used.

Most of my notebook experience is with ThinkPads, and most of those have been T-series.

T2x: Extremely durable; built like a tank. Build quality is superb, and that's without the magnesium rollcages used since the T6x. It might be thick and far too slow for my needs, but I won't be giving up my old T21. That machine stood up to my abuse since I purchased it used in 2004, and still works without a hitch. However, this might just be my own personal T21, but people complaining about keyboard flex on the newer systems haven't seen my T21. It visibly bulges almost everywhere under even minimum typing pressure, and that's after installing a brand new(in IBM packaging; not an aftermarket replacement) keyboard and palmrest. I would take the keyboard in my M1730 or T400 well over the one in my T21.

T4x: I've gone through probably 6-7 T4x machines. Overall general build quality is great, keyboards are solid on both 14" and 15" varieties, and overall exterior impressions is that it's a great system. However, the infamous GPU issues really made these machines really unreliable. Other than that issue they're wonderfully built.

T60: Even though the design cues changed a bit from earlier models, the T60 is everything the T4x series was and then some. My 15" T60p was about as solid as it got, but I didn't like the heat issues. I had an NMB keyboard that was probably the best notebook keyboard I've ever used. I want one of these for my T400 really badly. Build quality is just rock-solid, and the fit and finish is excellent.

T400: I may have just gotten a very well assembled example or I'm just not extraordinarily choosy, but I don't see many of the complaints about the T400. I don't find the palmrest that flimsy and the system itself just seems solid. My personal T400 is much like my T60p in overall build quality. The only major complaints I have are that the hinges sound a little noisy and the Thinklight on this model is just plain useless. The keyboard isn't the best but it's passable... I'm waiting for a good, confirmed source of NMB T60 keyboards to get a new one. It feels a little mushy compared to the NMB, but is still far better than the ones on my T21 or my M1730.

I haven't even set eyes on a T410/510, but if the reviews say it's an improvement on the T400/500, then I would be very confident that they are great notebooks. With the exception of the ATI GPU flex problems in the T4x series, I would have to say that any T-series I've used would have the build quality to withstand years and years of use. They will most likely be working long after the hardware inside of them has become too outdated for your needs, just like my T21 has.

An aside, as far as gaming on my ThinkPads is concerned. These are business notebooks first and foremost, but more recent models have GPUs that can be used for light gaming. I can use the HD3470 in my T400 to play Crysis at mostly low(but a couple bumped up to medium) settings. I can play Oblivion(another game I still play frequently) at mostly high settings, as well. I do play other titles, but this is enough GPU power that I can comfortably enjoy most of my favorite games on the road or if I don't feel like lugging my 16 pound M1730 and power brick around. I consider gaming performance on my T400 to be a nice plus and not a primary consideration, however.

The GPU on the T410 is significantly more powerful than the one on the T400(but is only on par with the GPU on the T500), so there is a bit more performance to be had. However, and I stress this considerably, anyone expecting to get an enthusiast-class gaming system out of a ThinkPad(with possible exception of the W700... and if you're looking at those you can definitely float an M17x) is going to be disappointed. If you're getting one for a work/school notebook and can deal with casual gaming on lower settings, then you will consider it a very nice tradeoff.

 

..and so did quality.

You get what you pay for with current Thinkpads, please don't compare a Thinkpad from Lenovo with one from IBM that costed $5000 8 years ago.

The build quality was night and day.

 

I have to disagree with you. i work in Architecture office and we use Thinkpad for many generations. The earlier IBM/Thinkpad had slightly better "finish" but the later Lenovo/Thinkpad have much stronger structural frame inside. So, The Built quality are better. If you have a chance to handle the new w510 then you will agree with me. From the changes between T60 to the W510, you can see that this company (Lenovo) is very ambitious to try and built a BETTER Thinkpad while providing a very competitive price.

cheers

 

I will tend to agree with that. Design wise the thinkpads have evolved for the better. However the lower cost means less attention to QC and fitting of parts, which we see evident from some users here.

 

My 8 years old IBM was about 1.3k$ back then. And there's no way you can have 8 years of happy working/gaming with Zero issues for 1300$ today.

 

I also found the T500 to be poor by business class standards. I strongly preferre my elitebook.

 

You don't know what you are talking about. While I agree that the finish and little details are a bit lacking but the build quality has only improved with all the technologies implented.

 

I agree. It's impossible that it hasn't. Even if there is less budget, the materials, research + development compared to back then is much better.

 

Then use your Elitebook... no is asking for your opinion on whether the Elitebook is better than Thinkpad or not.

 

I love thinkpads due to the fact that my T60 keyboards can still be used in W500, which is also true for the battery.

 

I'll chime in. I have a T500....my first Thinkpad.

For a fantastic price point (under $800).....I got spill-proof keyboard, Mg roll-cage, HD airbag, Great Thinkvantage tools, extra security w/fingerprint reader, ultra-nav, nice speakers, tons of ports, great battery life and a three year waranty. Plus a bright LED/matte with rock solid metal hinges.

And I forgot it passes military specs for semi-rugged.



drake

 

(Mod clipped)

I think lots of people here and elsewhere mix build quality with and quality of the product. I see it as how well it's put together, and of what quality the parts are. My eee PC is a bunch of tonka toy plastic but it has no creaks, warps or unacceptable flex in it.

In what regards do you (previous posters who mentioned it) feel the quality has declined? Materials used (less metal, more flexy plastics) or the quality of construction (shoddy build quality) or both?

 

no idea, just got my first thinkpad two days ago. but for the money i paid i am pretty happy so far.

 

When I had my IBM Thinkpad R50e back in 2005 it was a joy to use, it would probably be my favourite of the lot. It was tough, ergonomic, well made and great value. I did spilt some water over the keyboard which frizzled it but all was OK when I purchased a replacement and was working fine until I sold it away. I then replaced it with an Acer Aspire, then a Toshiba Satellite Pro A120SE business laptop later on and my goodness what a mistake. Flimsy plastic, bits were going wrong, awful keyboard and touchpad (Toshiba's in particular) and poor cooling drove me crazy. Needless to say I stuck with Thinkpads ever since!

In terms of build quality and strength I still see it as rock solid as ever on my 3 year old T61 which I bought only a month ago with confidence. Ask if I do the same with a 3 year old Dell/HP/Acer/Toshiba laptop and I wouldn't even dare think about buying it 2nd hand. Oh and the Toshiba Satellite Pro A120SE which I bought in 2007, that had given up the ghost in 2009. And considering my current 2nd hand T61 was built at the same time is still rocking on, I can say that i'm more than pleased!

 

But in my opinion the new Thinkpads is the only business laptops that still holds true to its original design. Thinkpads = Evolutionary Laptop design....and other business laptops are just Revolutionary design, but like most political revolutions they fail in their intended purposes and history has to repeat itself.

Also, people would instantly recognize a Thinkpad even without any form of logos or badgings, but can we say the same about the Elitebooks and Latitude without their company logos?

 

I've deleted and edited a bunch of posts in this thread. If you do not have anything useful to add to this thread, please don't post. To those who composed legitimate replies - try to keep the discussion on topic, in regards to the build quality of new and old Thinkpads. I encourage those with actual first-hand experience to contribute them for the OP and other forumers' benefit - thanks.

More on the topic: My dad had a T42 and is currently using a T60. I have a T500. All of them felt very solid, and although I didn't like some of the design choices Lenovo made (ie: dropping the grey color of the F- keys, color on the UltraNav buttons, etc), I felt that through the models, the build quality was preserved well despite the dropping costs. There were undoubtedly changes in design philosophy between each generation of Thinkpads (notably between the T4x and T6x series), but overall, I feel that the famous Thinkpad build quality is still very much present. My T500 is very solid - I can carry it by one corner without fear of it breaking, although I tend to avoid doing so. When the lid is closed, it's nearly indestructible.

I haven't seen or used the new Tx10 Thinkpads, but if they are an improvement over the Tx00 generation as many reviews have claimed, then I would be similarly confident in their build quality.

 

What new people don't get and that Lenovo take advantage of is the trademark "Thinkpad"

As i said you can't compare the Thinkpads from IBM with Lenovo, Lenovo Thinkpads are sloppy put together which you can see how large tolerances they have in their production, rollcage or not does not set the worksmanship of the product.

And they are not price worthy either, remember that the low prices are only in USA and not the rest of the world where the majority lives.

With the money i pay for a T410 in Europe i can get two T410 in USA, that's the difference.

In Europe the Thinkpads are overpriced, you get a Elitebook 8540w for the same price as the W510 or even cheaper at some places and you can't compare the 8540w with W510 in build quality.

For me the choice is simple.