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    Beware when buying a Thinkpad

    Discussion in 'Lenovo' started by Amn, Nov 7, 2008.

  1. Amn

    Amn Notebook Geek

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    I can confirm here that my T61 cold-botting from AC only (no battery), is limited to 1.2Ghz under load in BOTH Ubuntu 8.04 and Vista 32-bit. The situation is exactly the same, and does not hence indicate Vista or Linux weirdness. Since someone here (and some others elsewhere) suggest it is Lenovos decision, it may be BIOS intervention or the proprietary Thinkpad embedded controller or the also proprietary SMBus chip.
     
  2. louisssss

    louisssss Notebook Consultant

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    people who have their laptop at the desk for weeks/months at a time and only occasionally take their computer away from the desk.
     
  3. THAANSA3

    THAANSA3 Exit Stage Left

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    Thank, Amn. Someone answered it earlier in the thread, but it absolutely does not hurt to have someone corroborate the information. Thank you again.

    THAANSA3
     
  4. zerosource

    zerosource Notebook Deity

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    THAANSA3, so what is you next laptop? when are going to buy?
     
  5. THAANSA3

    THAANSA3 Exit Stage Left

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    I'm giving strong consideration to the T500 and have set a December 1 date for myself. That is my deadline to decide and finally place an order. Also, I am continuing to save as much as I can by that date.
     
  6. zerosource

    zerosource Notebook Deity

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    I'm waiting for any 15" LED WUXGA with graphic that can run GTA4 and Sims3 available... at least M4400 has it on advertise...

    black friday is on 28 right?
     
  7. Charr

    Charr Notebook Deity

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    Had a 90w with my last machine, currently using a 65w (92P1159).

    If you boot the system up from a complete shut down state where a battery hasn't been inserted since start up, the CPU is unrestricted. Using cpufreq performance governor & 8.10.

    I'm no saying it is a problem with the OS, I am saying that it can be circumvented under the right circumstances.
     
  8. Amn

    Amn Notebook Geek

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    Man, that is weird (for me to hear, that is). I haven't had battery inside my T61 ever since I bought it, aside those times I carry it with me, which is basically almost never. It just stands on my desk, sleek that it is.

    In other words I cold-boot into Ubuntu 8.04.1 LTS from a "complete shutdown state" on my 65W AC and no battery in sight, and it caps at 1.2Ghz, it has never went beyond that, unless I insert the battery at which point it instantly is able to. Maybe I should try the new 8.10, have it downloaded, but not burned and tried yet. Also, mine is T61, yours is T400, right?

    Thanks for the important information.
     
  9. mikec

    mikec Notebook Evangelist

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    Still doesn't make sense. If you are doing this (running w/o battery), you are in a tiny, tiny, tiny minority.

    You really aren't extending your battery life. Modern circuitry protects it from overcharging/wearing out prematurely.

    Again, this is making a mountain out of a molehill.
     
  10. arsenic004

    arsenic004 Notebook Consultant

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    "Again, this is making a mountain out of a molehill."
    Exactly.

    Solution - use the darn battery.

    It's like removing the power steering from a car and complaining that it's hard to turn the wheel.

    I don't know how much the battery can be saved (if at all), but there are greater risks if the AC jack is suddenly pulled and such.
     
  11. Amn

    Amn Notebook Geek

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    Charr,

    and others,

    I can now confirm that running Ubuntu 8.10 LiveCD (did not install it yet), after Charrs statement, the PROBLEM IS GONE.

    The CPU DOES SCALE UP all the way now, without battery present, only on my 65 watts of AC power.

    This should put a final nail in the coffin of the "Lenovo decided 65W is not enough" theory,
    and also speaks volumes of the kind of work Ubuntu people had to do to make the CPU work at its maximum frequency WITHOUT any official Lenovo support and involvement (considering in Vista frequency is still capped as of now, more on that further down), and I am sure not much still is known about how the either EC, BIOS or SMBus in a Thinkpad work, since all these are proprietary Lenovo technology, and they so far did not share any useful knowledge (EC, among other things, is a separate "computer-on-a-chip" in your Thinkpad, that controls fan speeds, battery charging and what not)

    What is funny, my Windows Vista that I dual-boot (and it is a Lenovo factory install, with very recent patches and drivers applied) still caps at 1.2Ghz. Go figure. Worth to mention it was behaving like that possibly forever, I found out about the issue when I first fired up Intel Performance Analysis Tool and later CPU-Z. But I did say before that Vista had the problem, so this is not new.

    There are several other benefits over old Ubuntu I had, which are a nice suprises, like the WiFi led under the screen flashing when transmitting data, and the fan is for some reason silent and ACPI thermal zones report normal temperatures; but I need more time with 8.10 to really understand what has changed, and if for the better.

    All testing is welcome. I am now concerned for those Vista folks (possible also an XP issue) that may still suffer from this.
     
  12. Charr

    Charr Notebook Deity

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    I think the problem is that Lenovo wanted to cap processors at 1.6GHz when only running on a 65w adapter, but somehow cold booting on Linux defeats the check.

    I think Lenovo might have a valid reason for the lock, as I was streaming video on Vista and removed the battery, and the system was hammered - it froze for almost four seconds, causing the display to cut out, and the HDD was unable to stay on, but wasn't off long enough for the file system to lose sync.

    Off topic, 8.10 mainly focused on Wifi and WWAN issues, and fixing bugs in Hardy, and came out really well. It is a much better release than some previous ones.
     
  13. Xseries4ever

    Xseries4ever Notebook Geek

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    Well it is true on my X61. I run it without battery whenever I am on AC, due to me wanting to prevent my battery from heating up (thus prolonging life).

    I use Crystal CPU ID to force it to the processor's full speed (1.8Ghz from 1.2Ghz), if I need it. It is annoying, but nothing that would force me not to buy another ThinkPad. Most of the time I leave it alone anyway as 1.2Ghz is fast enough for me.
     
  14. mikec

    mikec Notebook Evangelist

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    You really aren't prolong the life of the battery. You might think you are, but you aren't.

    Modern batteries are definitely use it or lose it. I've tested dozens of li-ions over the past several years. The ones that "wore" out were usually the ones used the least. Time, regardless of use, is a factor. Sorry to be the one to burst the bubble.

    Anyway, just charge your computer to a decent credit card with free warranty extension, and if the battery peters out in 2 years, they will give you a new one free.
     
  15. zerosource

    zerosource Notebook Deity

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    Ubuntu FTW!! Lol, linux for life... :cool:
     
  16. louisssss

    louisssss Notebook Consultant

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    this is not a solution for those with a thinkpad + 65w adapter and not being able to get our full cpu speed without the battery inserted.

    that comparison u made isn't really close. battery inside a laptop shouldn't have to do with CPU SPEED.

    its more like not having power steering and complaining of top speed. unrelated. independent events
     
  17. mikec

    mikec Notebook Evangelist

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    Again, this is an esoteric issue, and you and maybe two other people in the whole world would have an issue with this.

    The laptop is design to be used with a battery installed. Not so long ago, some laptop would not work only on AC (without a battery).

    If you want to use the laptop as intended, go right ahead. If you want to make an issue out of essentially nothing, well, there are plenty of other places to get attention.
     
  18. louisssss

    louisssss Notebook Consultant

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    They are still INDEPENDENT events: having a batter connected to the laptop & CPU working at its default speeds.

    The laptop is "designed" to be used with, or without the battery. right? i'm not sure what "not so long ago" means to you, but my 5+ year old IBM works without the battery only on AC adapter. and 5 years is a century in computer land.

    What if lenovo limited the LCD brightness to 1 or 2 notches running on battery power alone? i'd be pretty mad if they didn't tell me that in advance.
     
  19. mikec

    mikec Notebook Evangelist

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    Well, return it and buy a different laptop brand. It's called competition/choice.

    Obviously, this is a big issue for you. So get one that makes you happy. Light a match, don't curse the darkness.
     
  20. zerosource

    zerosource Notebook Deity

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    lol, good words. :cool:
     
  21. Xseries4ever

    Xseries4ever Notebook Geek

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    I am aware of that. But I am also aware of that keeping it in cool storage (e.g. the fridge) will also prevent substantial battery capacity lost. Batteries are expensive, so if there is a way for me to keep the battery capacity from reducing substantially I will do so. There is no need for me to keep my battery slotted in when I am using AC. It is well known that battery deterioration slows down when left at a 40-50% charge level while kept in a cool storage.

    Look it up.
     
  22. BinkNR

    BinkNR Knock off all that evil

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    I’m in agreement that this is an esoteric issue. While there is a downside to it, on the other hand, if you can’t afford a new battery every two to three years, you have far bigger problems.
     
  23. Xseries4ever

    Xseries4ever Notebook Geek

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    It isn't about not being able to afford. Many people can afford new batteries, but is it worth it to waste a perfectly good working one when you do not require it? Throwing away money isn't something people should be encouraged to do so.

    Desktop PCs works fine (sans-batteries) when connected to the AC, the same with notebooks. I've been using notebooks since 1998, always without the battery connected when on AC, and have never experienced any mishaps.
     
  24. zerosource

    zerosource Notebook Deity

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    +1 for smarter man.
     
  25. mikec

    mikec Notebook Evangelist

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    Um, if you want to store your laptop battery in the fridge, that's your call.
    Most of the world would see that as silly.

    If you are going to run only off AC, just get a desktop computer (which is 1/2 the price of the laptop.) That way, there is no extra battery expense (or you can afford to buy 2 or 3 additional batteries for another laptop.

    This whole thread is an exercise in supposed cost saving on batteries, that really don't bear themselves out in the practical, real world. If you are going to run off of AC all the time, why even worry about the battery?
     
  26. mikec

    mikec Notebook Evangelist

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    Glad to hear you never have had a power outage while using your AC only connected laptop.

    Throwing money after a laptop, when you aren't using the functionality, should not be encouraged. ;-)
    You could use a desktop with twice the performance and half the price.

    Again, you are in a tiny tiny minority, and most would see your position as irrational/illogical.
     
  27. pacmandelight

    pacmandelight Notebook Deity

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    Personally, I would just leave the battery in. If I was not going to use my laptop for a long period of time (like months), I would keep my battery at 40-50% charge and put it in the refrigerator too. However, I use my notebook frequently so I just leave the battery in.

    Notebook batteries (lithium specifically) have a limited shelf life. It cannot escape chemistry and physics: use it or lose it. They die after a 2-3 years.
     
  28. mikec

    mikec Notebook Evangelist

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    Bingo...use it or lose it.
     
  29. THAANSA3

    THAANSA3 Exit Stage Left

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    I agree with all of those who advocate using the d*** battery. I mean, that's what it's there for. This thread really should have ended around page 4 . . . maybe even page 3. If you want the clock speed, then use the battery. If you don't mind the supposed limitation, then run it on AC with the 65W adapter.
     
  30. miro_gt

    miro_gt Notebook Deity

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    - your battery will age anyways (used or not)

    - eliminating the risk of loosing information/destroying your OS is well worth keeping the battery in all the time (in case of power disruptions)

    - sometimes when you're in a hurry and just want to grab your laptop and go to use it somewhere else, you may find yourself with half charged battery, thus screwing up the task that you may have wanted to do.

    .. see my point ?
     
  31. tallshorty

    tallshorty Notebook Evangelist

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    I didn't read the last 8 pages so sorry if this has been brought up.

    I had the X61 and I can confirm that the 90W DOES allow full CPU speed without battery.

    I called Lenovo and complained that the 65W isn't giving me full CPU speed and that I knew the 90W adapter would so they sent one to me for free. Now I have 2, the 65W for the road and the 90W permanently left at my desk plugged into the ultrabase :)
     
  32. zerosource

    zerosource Notebook Deity

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    lucky you! they just need to get kick in the butt before be good to us. :mad:
     
  33. BinkNR

    BinkNR Knock off all that evil

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    No, no, no—you’re crazy. It’s all about doing lots of silly things to get six months more battery life.
     
  34. louisssss

    louisssss Notebook Consultant

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    this thread should NOT be about keeping batter in or not.

    it is about Lenovo CAPPING the cpu speed without the battery in place.
    cut the crap about leaving the battery in, since reading this thread i've been to current generation Sony, HP, and Dell laptops and they all run at full 100% speed with ONLY the AC adapter on. cpu speed was verified with cpu-z 1.48
     
  35. srunni

    srunni Notebook Deity

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    :D :D :D :D

    True that.
     
  36. arsenic004

    arsenic004 Notebook Consultant

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    Here is the answer from Mark_Lenovo:

    "I've looked into this matter with engineering, and the behavior you have observed is actually a design point of the system. The system is working as it was designed. Let me explain....

    The tablet was designed to function while docked on the slice, and run on battery or AC with the 65 watt adapter. Between the slice and the tablet, there are 7 USB ports. If you add up the total system power draw, calculating in the maximum draw on all the ports, maximum CPU + DVD read/write access, etc could exceed 65 watts in a peak. Under normal usage scenarios, which the system is anticipated to operate in, the battery is in circuit and provides a buffer to help the system manage the peaks of power demand. If the battery is removed, and run with the 65W adapter only, the system will throttle the CPU to ensure there is adequate headroom to absorb the power draw of a fully loaded USB configuration on the dock. If the system did not do this, and exceeded the total wattage available, the system would shut down and data loss could result. Lenovo designed the power management to protect the user from this condition.

    The 65W adapter was selected as the base config adapter as it is about 75%-80% of the size and weight of the 90W adapter, and provides a smaller and lighter adapter profile with the traveler in mind.

    The anticipated usage model is with the battery installed in the system. Users who are concerned about optimizing battery life while keeping it in circuit can adjust the charging start and stop thresholds to keep the battery in around the 40% range which is proven to be the optimum charge level for long term storage."

    I'd be outraged too if a product doesn't work the way it wasn't designed to function.
     
  37. THAANSA3

    THAANSA3 Exit Stage Left

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    Good find.
     
  38. t30power

    t30power Notebook Deity

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    I cannot confirm yet, but when I got my T61 I removed the battery before fully charging it for the first time, then installed RMClock to undervolt the C2D T8100 and remember the software reported the CPU working at full speed (ie. 2.1GHz)
     
  39. zephir

    zephir Notebook Deity

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    Well, of course, because the adapter that ships with T-series is 90W adapter :)
    The adapter that ships with X-series is 65W adapter, since X-series is about portability
     
  40. Ahoy

    Ahoy Notebook Enthusiast

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    To OP, I think you should probably change that line since it's already been proven that not everyone is given a 65W adapter and thus does not have this problem.

    As proof,
    My T400 came with the 90W adapter and does not have this problem.
     
  41. Amn

    Amn Notebook Geek

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    Incorrect. Check your facts. Lenovo inform us themselves on the Orders page, at least for T61 models, that integrated graphics models are supplied with a 65 watts adapter, and dedicated graphics - with 90 watts.

    Also, granted I find the issue alarming (not for battery reasons, but due to false advertising), you ARE in danger of not getting enough juice from the AC adapter without battery when stressing the CPU to its maxium TDP:

    Maximum wattage per component:
    1. Core 2 Duo CPU - 35W (yes, there exist models with less TDP)
    2. mobile spinning-platter hard drive - 1.5W
    3. 14" LCD - 3W
    4. 3xUSB - 3x2.5W (USB 2.0 standard maximum wattage)
    5. WiFi - 3W
    6. BlueTooth - 2W
    7. Optical drive - 5W
    8. Audio - 1W
    9. Motherboard, fan, battery charging (!!!), graphic card - ???

    Already with known variables (cross-checked on Internet, some are more precise than others) this puts about AT LEAST (9. not included) 58 watts of load on a power source.

    The one thing I am NOT getting is how does Lenovo guarantee full CPU speed on adapter with battery inserted, if that said adapter has to charge the battery while supplying enough juice to run the system? My only theory is that apparently the watts dedicated to charging the battery vary with system load. So basically if just running the system with the full speed CPU needs more than the adapter can provide (the reason Lenovo "cap" the frequency) then the battery DISCHARGES simultaneously to provide additional wattage required. If the load on the system requires less than maximum adapter output, then the excess wattage is used to charge the battery. In other words, exactly how fast the 65W adapter will charge your battery depends on your system load, and if your laptop does need more than 65W (well less actually, since it is an ADVERTISED figure) then your inserted battery will most likely not charge BUT discharge. I have yet to test this, it will require me to plug in 3 active USB devices, play an Audio CD, run a CPU burn program and what not to see this in action.
     
  42. Amn

    Amn Notebook Geek

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    Your T400 came with discrete graphics (link to quoted page supplied below).

    1. Lenovo supplies 65W adapters to machines with integrated graphics and 90W adapters to machines with dedicated graphics. I can give you the URL of the page where they say they do so, for T400s. Need one?
    2. This means machines with integrated graphics need the battery to make use of their full specification.
    3. I was referring to T61 specifically, additionally saying "not limited to", because the story is the same for T400s, X series and possibly others.

    So, no I do not think there is a need to change the original statement.

    Here is the link by the way:
    http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/systemconfig.runtime.workflow:GetMoreInfo?fCode=/merchandising/US/specialoffers/popups/help_me_decide/Popup_helpme_powercord.html|static&type=help

    In case it does not work (Those poor awful session based websites) here is the quoted paragraph:

     
  43. elfroggo

    elfroggo Notebook Evangelist

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    If this is such a big deal to you then call customer support and tell them what you told us here. It's possible you'd get a 90watt adapter as a replacement.

    The fact is that users using the laptop without battery on AC power are in the minority. For the people that do carry around their laptops, having a lighter 65w adapter is more beneficial than always lugging around a 90w adapter if their laptop does not need it.

    Actually the fact that Lenovo put a cap on CPU speed when on 65w AC and no battery is more due to good engineering than a conspiracy to make you mad.

    Wouldn't you be angry if you lost data if your laptop shut down because of insufficient power?

    The battery acts as a buffer to prevent power interruption. Remember that it only takes a spike in power draw to cause your laptop to shut down.

    It's not the laptop is not capable of running the CPU at full speed, but if you were to plug in many additional power drawing devices then you could run into issues. Lenovo has to design for the most extreme cases, so in this situation they have decided that to prevent computer shutdown without the battery buffer in place; the CPU speed would be capped.

    It is likely that a battery isn't charged very much if the laptop is drawing a lot of power itself. On my eee pc, the adapter is normally warm but not hot. If I'm charging the battery and using the laptop it gets almost blazingly hot. It's an adaptive power supply.

    You need the 90w adapter, go buy one or complain until you get one.
     
  44. mikec

    mikec Notebook Evangelist

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    Buying a laptop and running it without the battery is like parachuting without a reserve chute.
     
  45. BinkNR

    BinkNR Knock off all that evil

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    Buying a laptop and running it without the battery is like… wait… remind me again why someone bothered to buy a laptop and not a desktop, which would cost half as much?
     
  46. mikec

    mikec Notebook Evangelist

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    LOL.................
     
  47. Animaitor

    Animaitor Notebook Enthusiast

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    What about using the laptop to visit clients on a daily basis? Try to bring a desktop with you everywhere you go... in Tokyo!
     
  48. BinkNR

    BinkNR Knock off all that evil

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    Just a follow-up to this thread, it appears the JesusBooks, I mean MacBooks, rely on the battery for maximum performance as well.

    Moral of the story? Leave the ****ing battery in—since you bought a notebook, treat it as such.


    MacBook and MacBook Pro: Mac reduces processor speed when battery is removed while operating from an A/C adaptor

    http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2332
     
  49. reg767

    reg767 Notebook Geek

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    Try getting the Slim AC adapter (90W) for travel anyway - part #: 41N8460. Online stores have this Slim 90W AC adapter travel kit for around US$90.
     
  50. angle123

    angle123 Notebook Enthusiast

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    65W adapter isn't powerful enough to power discreet graphic cards either. I guess that's lenovo's problem, right? Some people are funny.
     
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