Beware when buying a Thinkpad

Hi all,

Bringing to your attention a somewhat peculiar, unknown but important fact, that I have discovered the hard way, just as many others did.

If you think ordering a 1.2+ Ghz Core [2] Duo processor will give you its advertised speed, you may be in for a surprise. Lenovo supplies by default 65W adapters, including but not limited to my T61, which without the battery inserted into the machine IS UNABLE to scale the CPU up beyond 1.2Ghz. You will most likely NOT KNOW you would be getting a 65W adapter, nor will they warn you of the problem. They also apparently not very cooperative discussing the issue.

The problem is that some facility (BIOS) inside the machine PREVENTS the CPU to scale beyond 1.2Ghz when using 65W adapter without battery inserted in the back.

So in effect, for those of you who do not always keep the battery connected, you will be getting a 1.2Ghz processor, no matter what clock speed you wanted, and the official option is to buy an ADDITIONAL 90W adapter that apparently IS ABLE to drive the CPU beyond 1.2Ghz.

In my book this is false advertising. The battery IS REMOVEABLE and there is no statement warning the customer he limits the CPU by removing the battery.

I wanted people to start being aware that not is all rosy in Thinkpad camp.

 

why remove battery in first place? usually laptops come with a piece of paper warning us from this practice and telling us it can lead to electric shock. if you're trying to maximize the battery life, then let me tell u i have a three years old macbook and a five years old hp... both last for three hours no problem. thats like only few minutes behind their original battery life. just a matter of care and calibrating frequently.

 

youd be surprised. i have radios that dont work without batteries in, since the power temporarily 'drops out' or surges beyond the adaptor limits when switching bands, etc.


can you remove the batery from your ipod-esque player and still run it? somehow i doubt it

 

Thats all crap. I frequently use my T400 on only AC, and run the CPU at 2.4GHz.

 

no, its not crap. its the same for me. my cpu only runs at the 6x multiplier (6 x 266 = 1.6ghz) for my P8600 CPU. it ONLY goes to the rated 2.4ghz IF AND ONLY IF the battery AND ac adapter is plugged in.

AND

disabling speedstep in the bios does NOT make ur cpu run at its rated speed 24/7 like how we disable speedstep in our desktops. on the lenovo, disabling it LOCKS the multiplier at 6x.

one of my disappointments with the lenovo (x200)

 

^do you use 65W or 90W?

luckily I have 90W in the first place, but too lazy to take off and put in battery when I wanted to use it.

Thanks for sharing. Need more proof, tho.

 

i use the default ac adapter that came with the x200. i believe its the 65w one (right?)

can people confirm that the 90w adapter will allow my cpu to run at its rated speed WITHOUT the battery?

 

Oh my gosh !!! is this true??? how did you guys find this out? so the only way to get the full CPU speed is to either have the battery and AC adapter both plugged in or to get the 90W AC adapter???

 

yes it is true, but the "ONLY 90w adapter" theory hasn't been proved yet. the batter+65w adapter has been confirmed tho.

why dont u give it a shot urself? make sure speedstep is on in bios

 

I realized why I wasn't experiencing this problem: in Linux, when the system is booted up with AC as the only power, the CPU is free to run at full speed. However, when a battery is inserted and removed, the BIOS initiates the CPU lock. In Windows, it always happens.

I don't understand why they did this, as 65w is enough to run my machine with no stability issues before the BIOS initiates the lock.

 

Thanks for your reply....I'll give it a try now...How do you check the CPU speed?? do you need a special program or something?

 

Oh one more question. Would leaving my battery in my laptop and AC adapter plugged in, damage my battery in anyway even when it's 100% charged?

 

no, if you have power management software it will automatic stop charging.

 

Well, what about when you're using the notebook on just battery power? Does the same theory apply, or do you get the advertised clock speed?

 

no label on your battery? mine says 90W 20V

 

Thanks for your reply. So what should the configuration be in Power Manager under the Battery tab > Battery Maintenance?

1. Always fully charge (Start when below 96%; stop at 100%)
2. Optimize for battery lifespan (automatically change for me)
Notify me when thresholds change
3. Custom Start charging when below: ?% Stop charging at: ?%


Thanks in advance

 

u can use the latest version of CPU-Z. its version 1.48 and its free
with it, u can see your multi change from 6x to whatever the default should be. 6x is what speedstep sets it as to save bat life and power and heat.

 

yes, it will damage your battery, but only a little. it will add extra unecessary charge cycles to it and heat it up when charging + laptop in use at the same time. i use the Power Manager to start the charging at 60% and stop the charging at 95%

on JUST battery power i set it to adaptive, but the only speed i've seen is the lowest (but also noticed that my voltage in cpu-z drops lowest to 1.013.) which is 6x multiplier. the voltage drop is noticeable in temps.

with cpu-z i've noticed 3 diff voltages for the cpu: 1.013v, 1.113v, 1.213v

i simultaneously monitor vCore from cpu-z and my temps from speedfan and they fluctuate directly together

 

did u buy urs seperate from the laptop? what laptop do u have?

i have the x200 and it came with the 65w 20v ac adapter

 

Mine says 90W too. T400

 

So Louisssss, and pardon my ignorance, are you saying that the same theory DOES apply when using only batter power? If so, then that's definitely a problem and possibly even a deal breaker for me.

 

i'm not sure what you're talking abut but heres how the cpu runs on batter power only on my laptop:

Bios setting: adaptive
Lenovo Power Manager setting: adaptive

scenarios: CPU-Z tells me that my cpu speed is 6 x 266 ~ 1.6ghz @ 1.013vcore/1.113vcore

cpu temps are good and low under 30C on a leather sofa. 70F room temp

 

is that the default ac adapter that shipped with ur laptop?

what are the pros/cons of having a higher wattage ac adapter in my case? with the 65w default?

 

Depends on what you want. There are threads about battery threshold around here. I just use it as default [1].

 

by doing that, you are adding unecessary charge cycles to ur battery. u don't need to charge ur battery when it has 94% charge remaining, but if u leave it at the #1 setting, it will charge it to 100% and +1 to the charge cycle.

 

Lenovo will ship 65W with integrated graphic and 90W with dedicated one.
the different is as the number 90W>65W, so dedicated card is intended to consume more power. 90W will charge faster than 65W.

 

I don't really care. I have battery for use not for save. What if set it to start at 60% stop at 80%, what's the point if I'm gonna use it anytime soon?

 

huh the battery is for use when you dont have the ac adapter...

but hey u can do what you want with your stuff. i'll stick with option 3 and set my own charge thresholds

 

also, i use my battery as ups while on ac.

 

Charr:
Please. It does not happen to you, fine. But the issue is real, you just did not do enough Google searching. Also, if you do not have the issue on your T400 without battery, it is a somewhat strong indication that the issue has been swept under the carpet by Lenovo, who started shipping 90W AC adapters with newer Thinkpads BY DEFAULT, because they VERY WELL know about this problem. Do you have a 90W adapter? It says on the bottom of the thing. It is not like T400 consumes more power than my T61 with a similiar configuration anyway. The decision to ship it with 90W adapter by default belongs to Lenovo and it has a good reason.

zerosource:
Well, I do not really care what Lenovo ships with my machine (it is integrated graphics btw), as long as I get my advertised speed with or without battery, or a warning BEFORE BUYING that removing battery WILL (not MAY, but WILL) put an artificial ceiling on my CPU frequency limit. I did NOT get a choice of selecting the AC adapter when ordering either, so you can see what kind of situation this puts the buyer in.

People, whether your radio runs with or without battery is absolutely IRRELEVANT. Whether you have a sticker on your battery that warns you of removing is also IRRELEVANT. We all know very well that we remove and replace our batteries from time to time, also it is a PROVEN fact (PROVEN != MYTH or RUMOR) that batteries detoriate a good deal faster when plugged in because of short cycle charges and heat buildup inside the computer AND inside the battery when plugged in. It is my choice to keep it in or out, there is no explicit prohibition from anywhere to do so. Please, no more "why would you want to remove the battery???!" questions. Because I want to. Because I do not need to have the poor thing plugged in when I either have my T61 on my desk for weeks and months in a row. Because others may not want to either, and it is a fairly normal thing to do, from my perspective.

This is not my personal agenda, I only wanted to tell you this is a fact that with 65W adapter and without the battery, you are left with a perfectly working but capped CPU.

It is not my intention to wage a vendetta against Lenovo or my opposition here, but I will put out facts and facts speak for themselves. Statements like "Well, nobody in their right mind removes their battery" really do not speak for either argument here, and just spice up the discussion.

This is real, this is a FACT. If you do not believe me, I assure those of you who use or have a spare 65W adapter, remove your battery, start up one of Intel utilities that identify current Core [2] Duo CPU running frequency (search Intel support pages for downloads of these) and see for yourself. This has been the case with Thinkpad X and Thinkpad T machines.

My real goal is to make people aware so Lenovo will come out with a statement or at least do not force me and others who already have got a default 65W adapter to BUY another 90W one, because they did not warn us prior to ordering.

As to answer some minor questions:

The apparent explanation I am getting from diverse folks on the Web is that 65W adapter cannot guarantee enough juice to the system with maximum theoretical power draw (including using all the USB ports etc), and will output power surges when unable to do so, and since CPU HAS to be able to receive stable voltage, Lenovo play safe and cap the frequency. Exactly how this is explained and works is beyond me, also since I think plugging in a battery will hardly give MORE power to the system, rather the opposite, considering that the adapter now also has to charge the battery while doing everything else.

With only battery plugged in, without AC power, the laptop WILL scale up to maximum advertised CPU frequency. This is understandable, battery will just put out stable DC juice, nothing can go wrong.

I cannot guarantee that every single model (I did not say 'machine', mind you, but model) exhibits this problem, especially not with newer T400s, W500s etc, since Lenovo has had the chance to 'update' their 'policy' with these.

Ask me questions, I have spent some time on this, and can also provide links to other manifestations of this, and give also links to software that tracks CPU frequency. For XP, Vista and Linux.

My machine: T61 14", Core 2 Duo 2.0Ghz, Intel X3100, Seagate 100Gb 7200rpm HDD ...

 

I'm not sure I would say that "all is not well with Lenovo" from this observation of yours. Lenovo/IBM tend to make machines that are conservatively engineered. The T61's processor is probably drawing too much power to run at full speed at 65watts, what does the processor alone draw on it? 35? So, to force the processor to stick to a lower speed is probably a reasonable precaution. I think your solutions are pretty straight forward: 1) use the machine with the battery the way it was designed (you're likely not going to make your battery last any longer by pulling it out), 2) remove the battery and live with the slower processor speeds; few applications need the full power of your processor anyway, so it's probably not an issue, 3) get the higher juice adapter either by purchasing it or talking to a manager at Lenovo, maybe they'll help you out if you're nice about it. Anyhow, I don't think it's fair to conclude anything about what's going on at Lenovo. By most accounts Lenovo appears to be doing a rather good job. IBM was making great machines that nobody could afford to buy. I'm grateful that Lenovo is offering IBM quality machines at nearly the price you pay for other hideously junky computers like HP, Dell, Toshiba, Acer, and so on. We've all owned these plastic fire hazard pieces of junk. I've had too many of them.

 

I mean look at the title of this post? Come on. Let's not get hysterical!

 

Are the 65W power adapters smaller and lighter than the 90W version?

The 90W ones charge the battery faster than the 65W ones too, right?

 

Strange thing is, running my entire system under full load with just AC works perfectly, with no stability issues.

90W adapters are about 33% bigger, and 40% heavier.

 

My question to anyone who can answer it is: Is the computer unable to reach the advertised clock speed (for example, 2.8Ghz) if it is only on battery power? The OP suggests that this is the issue when the battery is out and one is using only a 65W adapter. Does the same apply when solely on battery power?

 

The same does not happen on only battery, as the LiIon batteries can discharge at very rates.

I was skeptical at first, because I thought the problem wasn't affecting me, but read this post:

Funny thing is, the "problem" is affecting me, but it doesn't seem to be a problem. 65w is enough for a P8600 & X4500. Maybe with faster processors the required usage is higher than what a 65w PSU can supply, thus the need for a lock.

If any one has Linux installed on their Thinkpad, you can test to see if 65w is enough by booting with only AC power.

 

You're not breaking new ground. This is old news:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=246321

http://forum.lenovo.com/lnv/board/message?board.id=X_Series_Tablet_ThinkPads&view=by_date_ascending&message.id=1030#M1030

 

Maybe we should make a sticky about the 65w so that the problem is well known, and stops any spreading of misinformation.

 

Thanks, Charr.

 

vote for a sticky

 

This was very well said. Good post. However, are the other manufacturers really that bad?

 

Maybe I'm being a bit redundant or something here, but the thinkvantage software eliminates the need to be pulling out the battery while on AC power ...

 

for those who are interested, here are my cpu speed/vCore readings from cpu-z

(266 x 9) = 2.394ghz @ 1.213v
(266 x 6) = 1.596ghz @ 1.013v, 1.113v

-for the highest speed ([email protected]), i set CPU Speed to HIGHEST in power manager
-for the lowest speed (1.596ghz @ 1.013v) u can set cpu to LOW or LOWEST, i haven't noticed a difference.
-for your cpu to fluctuate between [email protected] and [email protected] set cpu to adaptive

*notes:
-highest cpu speed can only be reached with battery in with/without ac adapter
-1.013v & 1.113v 1.596ghz are the only voltages and speed reached with ac adapter only

 

I'm confused why this is an issue.

Integrated graphics get the 65W ac adapter. Discrete ones get the 90W.

Lenovo isn't the only one that does this. HP does it too.

So the issue is that if you pull out the battery, and only run on AC, you don't get full CPU power (under the 65W adapter.)

This seem awful esoteric.

 

Deos your HP ramp up to its fully rated speed with the AC adapter in ONLY? (no battery)

 

Why does this even matter? Who runs their laptop without the battery in all the time? Sort of defeats the purpose of a portable computer.

 

You are taking assumptions, and are incorrect with facts.

The machine draws total 17 watts when idle. Average wattage when browsing and listening to Internet radio is 22 - 25 watts. Burning the CPU at 2.0Ghz (battery inside) and doing browsing and listening to radio peaks at 45 watts. Results obtained with 65W AC and battery inside using Intels 'powertop' ( www.lesswatts.org) on Ubuntu 8.04.1 LTS Linux.

Besides, you are missing the part where I say it is in our right to KNOW that we are crippling the CPU when taking the battery out. It is an important thing to many - to know their 2.4 CPU (they like to brag about so much) only does half of it when running from AC only. Other than that I would settle fine for the explanation having technical limitations when made aware beforehand, not AFTER purchase, and after hours of digging into the matter, just as many others had to. This is unacceptable. I am glad many of you can explain the issue, but it is not enough to explain it, this is false advertising from Lenovos part.

 

What is your adapter wattage?

 

No it does not apply. They DO scale up to advertised frequency (if asked to by CPU governor logic) when only on battery (AC unplugged).

 

If it is false advertising, why don't you sue then?

Ranting over here against company doesn't make any good for you. Many touts live here. I did once.. look at your thread rate.

And the 90W/65W shipping, I took that information from one of NBR lenovo forum long long time ago. Google it, seems you are good at.

Nonny is here, she's a fangirl, as her, lol.

Thank you for the information. Nothing perfect.