The Notebook Review forums were hosted by TechTarget, who shut down them down on January 31, 2022. This static read-only archive was pulled by NBR forum users between January 20 and January 31, 2022, in an effort to make sure that the valuable technical information that had been posted on the forums is preserved. For current discussions, many NBR forum users moved over to NotebookTalk.net after the shutdown.
Problems? See this thread at archive.org.

    Best W540 or Lenovo Alternative?

    Discussion in 'Lenovo' started by Flickster, Apr 16, 2014.

  1. Flickster

    Flickster Notebook Evangelist

    Reputations:
    104
    Messages:
    335
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    31
    I've owned my W530 for nearly 2 years now and it's been an awesome laptop and to be honest it's still going strong, there is actually little need to change it apart from maybe going to a better IPS technology panel.

    However, I normally change my laptop every 2-3 years and with the 2 year mark coming up I thought I would ask what is the best W540 alternative / W530 upgrade option?

    I am asking for an alternative to the W540 because most things I have heard so far are that it's been a big downgrade to the W530 and previous Thinkpads in terms of design and build quality.

    I don't know if it's true but I've been reading a fair few comments on this forum saying that Lenovo really seem to be killing the Thinkpad and going in a totally wrong direction, if this is true, what are the die hard Thinkpad users moving to? What is the next best thing out there at the moment for those not happy with the direction Lenovo has taken with the Thinkpad.

    I hope things will change in the near future and Lenovo will do a 180 and go back to making the Thinkpads of old. Only time will tell.

    Cheers.
     
  2. changt34x

    changt34x Notebook Consultant

    Reputations:
    4
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    31
    I've been contemplating moving to a W530-like computer for quite a while. Unfortunately I feel this year it is going to be really hard to do. I've owned several alternatives to the W540 (ie. 15" mobile workstations), but they all have too many compromises.

    M4800 - The best machine I have owned. It is big, heavy, built very well, fast, and has epic cooling. It doesn't ever break a sweat with even Prime95 and Furmark. Unfortunately, the QHD screen does not allow Nvidia Optimus and drops battery life to 3-4 hours. You can get a FHD screen and Optimus, but after seeing how great the QHD screen is I can't make that compromise. (Returned)

    M3800 - Great design and screen. Unfortunately, I can't justify this over a rMBP. The i7-4702 is the only CPU option and the k1100m is quite disappointing. The battery life with the smaller battery is also not very good, and there is coil whine. rMBP has longer battery life (even with the M3800 on the larger battery), same storage options, faster CPU options, faster GPU, and no coil whine. (Returned)

    ZBook 15 - Friend owns one, equally good as the M4800. However it is mind-bogglingly expensive and offers no high-res screen options.

    rMBP 15 - I have the $2600 one currently assigned from work. It is a great size with a good blend of performance. However having to switch between OSX and Windows every 30 minutes is very irritating, they should have included a larger power brick, and it won't last under heavy load without throttling. (Not mine so can't return)

    W540 - The best blend of price, has a good screen, CPU, GPU, and battery options. However everything else is more iffy. I used a T540p and was quite disappointed by the trackpad (imprecise clicking), track point (lack of buttons), screen flex, backlight bleed, and flex on the base. Keyboard is fine, just takes time getting used to. I haven't had the chance to dump $2000 on a W540 because I don't want to go through another Lenovo return nightmare (like on my T430) and because there doesn't seem to be much activity on the model.

    I might get a rMBP for my personal use and try to migrate fully to OSX, as it seems to have the least compromises (if you can live with one SSD only, 16GB RAM, and fewer expansion choices).
     
  3. Flickster

    Flickster Notebook Evangelist

    Reputations:
    104
    Messages:
    335
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Hi Changt43x, I agree with you on the price of the Zbook 15, prices here in Australia are ridiculous. However, I had a look at some trust worthy sellers in the USA and you can get a brand new top spec'ed 4800QM with 32GB RAM and UWVA FHD screen for around $2300 which is the same as I would pay for a similar spec'ed Lenovo in AUS. Better than paying the $4000 they ask in AUS for the same spec Zbook.

    Not sure why HP are so out of touch with prices in Australia.

    However after looking in more detail, there is still actually very little reason to upgrade from my 3820QM FHD W530, the performance 15inch options out there are just not that big a jump. Guess I'll wait another year but I would still be interested to know what Thinkpad die hards are moving to now the Lenovo seem to be killing the brand.
     
  4. ibmthink

    ibmthink Notebookcheck Deity

    Reputations:
    897
    Messages:
    1,936
    Likes Received:
    385
    Trophy Points:
    101
    IMHO: Lenovo isn´t "killing" anything at all. They are just changing in the direction the market changes in my point of view. You can like it - or not. Everyone has his / her own view / opinion on these changes - nobody can tell you if they are good or bad, because you will have to experince them for yourself, and then decide on this experince.

    changt34x already listed the alternatives in the Workstation segment to the W540 - Dell Precision M4800 and HP ZBook 15. All three (W540 included) have strengths and weaknesses - you have to decide whats important for you and whats not.

    If I would posess a W530 like you have, I propably would skip Haswell and wait for Skylake - not because the machines now on the market are bad, but because Haswell isn´t really a big step forward in CPU power - the real benefit of Haswell is the better efficiency for the ULV CPUs. Also, you would gain a improved screen and a better GPU (but the GPUs used in all current Workstations are already outdated). You will have to decide if thats worht your money...
     
  5. md33

    md33 Notebook Enthusiast

    Reputations:
    0
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    more flexing
    soldered ram
    cruddy screens (bad qc control)
    cruddy trackpad
    integrated buttons
    service is not as great as before
     
  6. jcvjcvjcvjcv

    jcvjcvjcvjcv Notebook Evangelist

    Reputations:
    35
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    41
    They are moving in the direction the market is moving? Lol whut?? Never saw so much complaints all over the place since the *40 series. It got even crappier compared to the *30 series.
    No dedicated buttons, gone Thinklight; gone good keyboard layout, gone eSata, gone power supply compatibility. And on top of it all still the irritating 16:9 screens. If they are gonna copy Apple with all the crappyness they better start with copying the one thing Apple did right: 16:10 screens. But knowing Lenovo, they will probably claim those screens can't be bought. Just like they claimed they killed the 4:3 Thinkpad T61 due to "low demand" while there was a 2-month waiting list and $300 premium just to get that 4:3 screen...

    Thinkpads used to be different in the fact that at least the keyboard and trackpoint were vastly superior to the competition. Currently that's hard to claim though... the layout got downgraded to that of the first "multimedia" laptop.

    Somehow Google is able to make Chromebooks with 2560x1700 screen... so it can be done. Now combine that screen with the keyboard and I/O layout of the *20 series and *poof*; gone are all the complaints. And you can still offer a cheaper variant in the same chassis: just put in a 16:9 or 16:10 screen with a huge plastic bezel, just like you do now with 16:9 screens in 16:10 laptops.

    Even worse: it even seems Lenovo produces that Chromebook....
     
  7. ibmthink

    ibmthink Notebookcheck Deity

    Reputations:
    897
    Messages:
    1,936
    Likes Received:
    385
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Well, let me examine that:

    - More Flexing: What do you mean by that? More Flexing where? Do you mean mean more palmrest-flex? Then: No, the new machines don´t have more palmrest-flex. If you mean screen flex, than also: No. The screen used in the T440s for example is way thinner than the one used in T420 or T430s for example, but still flexes about the same amount, because the material is just better.

    - Soldered RAM? Are we really talking about the W540 here? I don´t see soldered RAM in this machine...even if you expand that on all new ThinkPads, you have exactly 4 machines with soldered RAM:
    - T440s (partly soldered)
    - T440 (with i7; partly soldered)
    - X1 Carbon
    - ThinkPad Yoga

    And you have 7 machines with normal, removable RAM (not counting S/Edge models):
    - T440 (i3 and i5)
    - X240
    - T540p
    - W540
    - T440p
    - L440
    - L540

    So, the majority of ThinkPads still have normal, removable RAM. And honestly, whats the big deal with soldered RAM: Soldered RAM isn´t any different from any other soldered component on the motherboard. It is not really more likely to brake than any of these other soldered components...

    - Cruddy Screens: Lenovo does use IPS screens now on nearly all T/X/W models. If you are refering to the fact that there are two IPS screens used in the T440s/T440p with different quality: Yes. Thats true. But thats no different from any of the generations before. Most components, with few exceptions, are coming from at least two different part manufacturers. Thats something normal, also with screens. And thats not only Lenovo, every manufacturer does that to ensure that they don´t ran out of parts. I heard that HP also now started to use these LG screen on their ZBook 14, propably also on the Elitebook 840....

    - Cruddy Trackpad / Integrated Buttons: Both points are really the same, and both not valid IMHO, because this is purely a thing of personal taste/preference and also "getting-used-to-it". Propably, if you ask someone the first day he uses a new ThinkPad how the TrackPad is, he would answer you different than 4 weeks later.

    This is a very polarizing change no less. For me myself, it absolutely does not weaken the TrackPoint at all, and how could it: In the end, it works just like the former design with dedicated buttons, it just feels a bit different because the buttons sizes are a bit different and of course the feeling is different (thats the "getting used to" point).

    - Service: Well, I can´t say anything about this. I know that the service quality of Lenovo can be very different, depending on where you live, but I can´t comment on the service, since I never had any defect with any of my ThinkPads.

    Even if you want to troll around: Can´t you just speak a normal English? ;) I won´t get into this whole display ratio discussion again, this was raged over and over again and has no need to be resurrected. Why? Because it is futile to discuss this. The moment the market as a whole switches to 16:10 with Notebooks, you will see 16:10 ThinkPads again. Thats also why the new ThinkPad 10 is 16:10 now: Because this seems to be the new standard with 10" Windows Business tablets.

    What are you talking about: That were you beloved Tx20 and the Tx30 models, with the T420/T430. They no longer do that, as the 14" T-Series is now smaller in size.

    Anyway, this thread is not for this discussion...
     
  8. md33

    md33 Notebook Enthusiast

    Reputations:
    0
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    5
    okay flexing is obviously more noticeable on the newest version of thinkpads compared to the others, even worse on the x240 which was already bad from the start, another disappointment is the amount of flex on the t540p which is really ridiculous to think, you say the materials are better, but you have no proof of that claim while there is numerous amounts of report for the unsettling amount of flexing thinkpads have compared to previous generations. my claim can and has been measured, yours has not other than the belief that it is better...

    X240 has soldered ram
    T440 soldered processor, unnecessary on a laptop as large as the t440

    if you even want to talk about the w540, don't gloss over the throttling issues, obviously you do not use your thinkpad for professional work, but having these issues in a 2,000 workstation is ridiculous especially if you are doing large renders or cpu heavy work which can take hours, and a stupid error from throttling when trying to meet a deadline is definitely something that would make me want to throw this piece of garbage out the window..

    touchpad is not opinionated when you consider that it is really dysfunctional, granted most people who buy tp probably use the pointstick but eventually that will be removed

    it seems like the more people praising the thinkpad are the people who either work in a cubicle and don't really do serious work or are students, technically that is what not thinkpads were marketed for, of course you are not going to experience issues when you sit in a desk all day

    the brand has been diluted into a hybrid consumer laptop with a work laptop sticker on it..
     
  9. ibmthink

    ibmthink Notebookcheck Deity

    Reputations:
    897
    Messages:
    1,936
    Likes Received:
    385
    Trophy Points:
    101
    What are you talking about? Show me those "numerous" reports please....your claim is not "measured". I may recall this review: Review Lenovo ThinkPad T440s 20AQ-S00500 Notebook - NotebookCheck.net Reviews "Manufacturing is top for this test device and the stability of the case has also been increased" - This is true.

    Most people I heard of with the X240 do not report flexing - the say that it is a well build machine. The T540p is of course a bit more prone to flexing, since it is bigger and has more slots and also a DVD drive, but thats nothing new with ThinkPads. It does not affect durability.

    This is either a lie or you don´t know much about the new ThinkPads. The X240 has one RAM socket - no RAM is soldered on the board.

    1. ULV CPUs are not available socketed
    2. "A laptop as large as T440"? The T440 has nearly the same size as the T440s, and is exactly as thin. A socket for the CPU does take room in the height. There are larger laptops than the T440 with soldered CPUs.

    No, its not. It functions very well (if you use TouchPads). But it functions even better if you only use it for the integrated TrackPoint-buttons...

    This is pure speculation. If you want to belive that, then do it.

    Nonsense.

    Please utilize capital letters in your sentences....
     
  10. Bluebird20

    Bluebird20 Notebook Consultant

    Reputations:
    0
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Why are we so emotionally attached to a brand? If someone criticizes something, that's their opinion. Simple as that. No need to get very defense about it. And these things are opinions, nothing more.

    I think we are moving away from what the OP had asked about (as it happens in all threads) to what the people in the thread want to discuss. He's looking for a certain thing and here we are throwing our opinions and judgments around (which won't really help him). But I guess if this didn't occur, most of the threads on the internet would be much smaller.
     
  11. ibmthink

    ibmthink Notebookcheck Deity

    Reputations:
    897
    Messages:
    1,936
    Likes Received:
    385
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Yes, thats true. Well, I only tried to help the TS by suggesting that he should not jump to a new machine now if he is happy with the W530.


    Sure. But ask them, not me. I only voiced my opinion as well - which some other then started to attack for no reason.
     
  12. ajkula66

    ajkula66 Courage and Consequence

    Reputations:
    3,018
    Messages:
    3,198
    Likes Received:
    2,318
    Trophy Points:
    231
    My $0.02 would go along the following lines...

    I'd still be quite leery of scaling within Windows of any kind with a 3K panel. If you're running any type of older software, there will be issues.


    While I haven't personally used W540 for an extended amount of time, I'd say this much:

    a) The change in keyboard/trackpoint area is drastic enough to warrant testing the of the new setup in person.

    b) W540 has - by far - received the worst user feedback out of the entire *40 generation, judging by the number of *legitimate* complaints on the Lenovo Forums and elsewhere.

    c) I would deem that a top-spec'd W530 would still hold its own in a "head-to-head" test against a 3K version of W540 (apart from the screen) pretty well for most applications.



    While I don't know anything in this respect for a fact, I seriously doubt it.
     
  13. Flickster

    Flickster Notebook Evangelist

    Reputations:
    104
    Messages:
    335
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Thanks for your opinion Ajkula66 and others, even if it does sometimes seem to get a bit heated :).

    Ibmthink, you definitely know your thinkpad products well, I appreciate your opinion. However, I can't ignore the numerous poor reviews on the internet and even on this very forum, the number of people speaking poorly about the W540 is considerable.

    As mentioned earlier, think I'll stay with my W530 for now, it's still very capable. In my opinion the performance gap to the new generation is simply not big enough to warrant leaving behind a solid, functional design. Maybe the next range of Intel CPUs will provide a large enough step in CPU performance so that combined with a better screen, the decision will be easier.
     
  14. jcvjcvjcvjcv

    jcvjcvjcvjcv Notebook Evangelist

    Reputations:
    35
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    41
    You mean the panel itself got decreased in thickness. That does not mean the material of the chassis got better in any way.

    You can't replace it. You have to decide when you first buy the machine what will be your RAM needs at the end of the life cycle. That often means you have to pay a lot more for the RAM when you first buy the machine as opposed to an upgrade 2 years down the road.

    Just because every other manufacturer uses cruddy screens doesn't mean it's not a valid complaint.

    Not really. I still regret not waiting two months longer for the 4:3 Thinkpad T61 instead of buying the 16:10 T61 (in 2007). And I even much more hate the 16:9 screen on my W520. That has not changed at all over the 21 months I have it in use (the W520).

    You have to get used to something that previously just worked w/o any getting used to. That's the problem. The same thing with shoe-sellers. They always say "the shoes has to form around your feet... bla bla bla". It usually just means they want to sell you shoes that don't fit properly. Because once bought and worn for a week... you can't return 'm. Luckily I have found one particular shoe brand and model (Echo Track II) that just fits perfectly straight new from the box

    Last time I had a ThinkPad serviced I had to use the vacuum cleaner when it came back to make it look like anything I send in...

    If you don't make abnormal claims; sure.

    Yes, there is a need.

    No, it's not. You sound a lot like Lenovo though..." Change Is Hard: Why You Should Give In to the New ThinkPad Keyboard...

    And who has to take the lead? Apple?

    Wohooo!!! A whole 0.5 mm!!! Extraordinary! So who is trolling here now?

    T420:
    Detailed specifications - ThinkPad T420
    T440:
    http://www.lenovo.com/shop/emea/content/pdf/ThinkPad/TSeries/en/thinkpad-t440-datasheet.pdf
    0.5 mm is small enough to be a change in the way they rounded... or because they measured at a different temperature.

    Then don't bring it.

    Oooh... I can cherry (or lemon) pick from reviews too:

    Here:
    http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Lenovo-ThinkPad-T440-20B6005YGE-Notebook.114855.0.html
    Because the people that would be most critical of what they buy didn't buy it in the first place due to such screwups as the single RAM slot or the ridiculous nonsense with the End / Insert key:
    https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/X-Series-ThinkPad-Laptops/X240-End-Insert-Fn-key-woes/td-p/1330763

    There is already too much software that raises blood pressure too much. No use in buying a machine with hardware that will add on to that...

    Soldered or only one slot: both are bad. Especially because you can't use Dual Channel with only one slot. Combine that with the integrated video that eats from that memory bandwidth and it's double stupid.
     
  15. prdie

    prdie Newbie

    Reputations:
    0
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    6
    x240 is not well bulit. I've shortly (month and a half) owned two. Both had faulty keyboard (some keys were screwing and squeaking on press), one had rattling fan and badly aligned glass screen vs the bezel (sharp glass edge that is, with addition of touch usage, capable of cutting a finger). the build quality is terrible for 2500$ I've spent on a piece.

    The only luck was that the retailer has no problems with returns. Because with the second ntb I visited Lenovo Authorised Service shop and tried to get the keyboard and fan replaced. Apart from the fact, that the delivery of replacement components was 14 days instead of 3 days promised, they told me also that the keyboard will not be probably fixed and that especially f1 and f4 keys (with diode) will screw again.
     
  16. Bluebird20

    Bluebird20 Notebook Consultant

    Reputations:
    0
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    31
    For no reason? Apparently, they had reason. Otherwise, they would not do it. There are people who are "loyal" to Lenovo here and others who are not. The important thing is to try to help the OP in whatever he is looking. But we all have our little agendas that we try to push (even in the laptop world).

    We are always pushing our beliefs, whether pro or con, down on people. To be honest, I think people value their beliefs far more than actually trying to help others.
     
  17. jcvjcvjcvjcv

    jcvjcvjcvjcv Notebook Evangelist

    Reputations:
    35
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    41
    More precisely:
    You have people who are "loyal" to a certain brand regardless of what they make. And on the other hand you have people loyal to quality products, regardless of who makes it. Emotional attachment to a brand is just complete stupidity. Of course those companies want that...

    Look at Apple: regardless of what they come out with... a lot of people pay double for it compared to what the same thing from a competitor costs. With the Thinkpad fans however... their fanboyism is generally more based on a love for quality... not a specific brand. That's why you can read about people ditching Lenovo and buying a Dell Precision. When I bought my W520 I didnd't really have to look at what HP and Dell had to offer; the Thinkpad was clearly superior for me. If I had to buy new today... I don't think I would end up at Lenovo at all. More likely a Dell Precision M4800. Even better though: I have absolutely no reason to buy anything at all: my W520 is still alive :)
     
    huntnyc, Flickster and jook33 like this.
  18. ibmthink

    ibmthink Notebookcheck Deity

    Reputations:
    897
    Messages:
    1,936
    Likes Received:
    385
    Trophy Points:
    101
    No. Both is true.

    No. But is this really a point that "Lenovo killed the ThinkPad"? Remember, this was the original question. ;) I don´t think so, since this is something IBM did too.

    Well, thats your problem. If you are not open minded, nothing new will work for you. But most people today propably have no problem with the 16:9 format.

    You say my claim is abnormal, but thats not very spefific. Please, tell me, in your great wisdom: What abnormal about the claim that "Lenovo is changing the brand in the direction of the market"? Lenovo is changing the brand in the direction the market is going, Ultrabooks, Touchscreens etc., just like HP and Dell do too. Nothing more was implied.

    No, there is not. I would like 16:10 too, but it is not important for me. Because 16:10 is a lot like 16:9 in the end...just a little bit better. But I am fine with both.

    This discussion is "beating of a dead horse" - since high-res screen are available now, the biggest disadvantage of 16:9 is gone - less vertical space then former 16:10 or 4:3 Notebooks.

    The TrackPoint itself need its time to get used too at first - if you argue like that, there will never be any innovation. Propably no problem for you, but it won´t work in the tech-world.

    You were the one who started this, and you are also the one who is continuing this discussion.

    "Apple takes the lead"? Who is making abnormal claims now? I thought Google would take the lead with its 3:2 Notebook? How could Apple "tjake the lead", they never stopped making 16:10 Notebooks.

    You. Who buys a T440? T440s are much more common (and then the T440p). The T440 isn´t even the succesor to the T420/T430 (the naming is wrong if you ask me), thats the T440p.

    Now let make me a comparison:
    T430s: 343mm x 230mm x 21.2–26.0mm
    T440s: 331mm x 226mm x 20.65mm

    Add to that that the T440(s) now has drop-down hinges, which also helps in this aspect, it doesn´t make the machine smaller, but it hides some of the bezel...

    Thats correct of course. Lenovo isn´t perfect. Nobody ever said so - it would be much better if the X240 would come with two slots. But oh well: Most people won´t care anyway, because the T440s is now so small, the advantages of the X2xx Series are becoming very slim.

    Thats very unlucky. However, these are not issues with the quality of the machine itself. These are QC issues, which Lenovo had a bit too much in the past months. I have heard they had some issues with their Joint-Venture with Compal, Lienpal, in terms of quality. I hope these are resolved by now.

    You see, the X240 might not seem like a well build machine to you, since you had defect ones. But there are always some Lemons, X230 also had some quality issues ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HrBqtUtvUI) these were also resolved after a few months. Ask most people now what the think about their X230, they will say to you that it is a well built machine. The X240 will be no different.

    Hope you have more luck with a different Notebook.

    Every has Notebook has its pros and cons - the quality of the Precisions is not in general higher than the W-Series.

    Don´t make me laugh: There are enough people who jumped ship when IBM sold their PC unit to Lenovo - just because ThinkPads are no longer made by "Big Blue". Or people who jumped ship when Lenovo was removing the IBM logo from ThinkPads.

    There are enough people who complained that the Enter key was no longer blue...

    There are enough people who won´t even try out a new ThinkPad, not because they are bad, but because they look (a bit) different from the former ThinkPads. The best example is the new keyboard itself:

    Don´t try to fool yourself. You can´t generalize on "ThinkPad fans".

    Yes. As is emotional attachment to a display ratio, or a keyboard layout - complete stupidity.
     
  19. ajkula66

    ajkula66 Courage and Consequence

    Reputations:
    3,018
    Messages:
    3,198
    Likes Received:
    2,318
    Trophy Points:
    231
    For some of us, both matters are a question of productivity, not an emotional attachment.

    I really thought that we were not going to go down that path again, since it has nothing to do with OP's question and needs...
     
  20. pipspeak

    pipspeak Notebook Deity

    Reputations:
    94
    Messages:
    1,041
    Likes Received:
    55
    Trophy Points:
    66
    I'm curious what W530 configuration the OP currently has. If I were in that position I would probably keep the W530 for another year since Haswell does not really offer much more in terms of power and there are potentially other upgrades that could boost W530 performance to keep it competitive for another year. The screen is another issue, but since Windows and some software is still pretty bad at scaling I'd not want to go beyond 1080p for now anyway.
     
  21. livebriand

    livebriand Notebook Consultant

    Reputations:
    22
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    31
    I don't know about you guys, but I have yet to see a single touchpad where I would call integrated buttons an upgrade. If done right, it's a sidegrade. If done wrong, it's potentially a dealbreaker. The touchpad on my netbook is even smaller than it would be on one of the new Thinkpads (if those had discrete buttons), and yet, it's not much of an issue for me. In fact, the new touchpad design was unusable for clicking when I tried it in store - sounds like most of that is due to early bugged drivers, but the overall feel still didn't seem as nice as the last-gen ones, or other business laptops with discrete buttons.

    And as for screens, I also see zero reason to have 16:9 over 16:10 unless you gain more pixels. (I do a lot more on my computer than watch movies.) 16:10 is good enough for side-by-side multitasking, yet still enough to have a good height. I realize this isn't likely to change unless the entire industry moves for some reason, but one can hope...


    In any case, for the original thread, why upgrade every 2-3 years just because it's been 2-3 years? Unless the W540 is substantially better than the W530, what's the point?
     
  22. jcvjcvjcvjcv

    jcvjcvjcvjcv Notebook Evangelist

    Reputations:
    35
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    41
    If both are true... your first statement is not true.

    Not in that sense. But you might say they fell more behind, what means there is a relative decrease in quality.

    Pff... open minded. What a bull. You work at marketing or something? It has nothing to do with new, it has to do with worse. I would be more than happy to get a 3:2 display on my next laptop. And oh: I couldn't care less about "most people". But since you apparently do, I'm definitely going to use that argument against you.

    If you imply something else, you should write something else.

    Yes, it is a lot like 16:10: a decrease in vertical workspace compared to what we had before. Both are crappy, but 16:9 is the worst of both.

    Not just the amount of pixels matter, the actual vertical size of the screen matters too. And to use your own nonsense against you: most people don't opt for the higher resolution screens anyway.

    The difference here of course is... in the end it doesn't work better. If you have to get used to something, it better does work better in the end. When I changed bicycle from a 3-speed with coupled brakes to a 8 gear with individual roller brakes it took some getting used to; but in the end; it works better.

    But yeah, since there are too much stupid people around in the tech world... it "works" that way that you can sell something crappier and claim it's better.

    Lol no, you started it. I just came by, saw your nonsense and had to respond.

    It was a question. You answer it. Apparently, Lenovo didn't just "move into the direction of the market", but wilfully choose to abandon 16:10.

    So, actually you once again implied something else than you said. You talked about the " 14" T-Series". That includes the T440. I couldn't care less about the T440s without docking connector.

    It probably just means the screen can't open as far, there is no place for protruding battery (very usefull as an handle). Besides that: Just like I don't care about the T440s, I don't care about the T430s. Fact is: T440 isn't anything smaller than T430, just like W540 isn't smaller than W530 (or W520 for that matter).

    Even your precious T440s with 331mm x 226mm is a lot bigger compared to the 12" X220 with 305.0mm x 206.5mm. That's a 19% larger footprint.

    Even w/o these QC issues you still are stuck with the stupid single RAM slot, and moronic keyboard layout. That's aren't QC issues, but might be called quality issues.


    In the case of W540 vs M4800 it seems everyone that touched both agrees the M4800 has a higher build quality.

    Nowhere near the amount of people that complained about the stupid keyboard layout starting in the *30 series and nowhere near the amount that wants to see 16:9 confined to the boneyard.

    Probably because most people can not just "try" a Thinkpad. The only way I can get my hands on a specific model is to either have someone in my environment (friend, family, colleague) that has that model or buy it myself. Nowhere near my are they available "in store". Based on the looks of the *30 series keyboard (and online complaints of users), I decided to buy a W520 over a W530. And you know what... a lot of people around me got a T530. I did try that keyboard later on and definitely don't regret my decision. That keyboard layout is absolutely bonkers. No numpad (via numlock), no forward / back, no alternate menu key; pretty much a Toys 'R us notebook keyboard layout for 5-year olds.

    True, but you're definitely not in the 2nd category.

    With every decrease in vertical workspace, I have to zoom more and scroll more; meaning it takes more time to do my work. Now I like the increased battery runtime on my W520 compared to older Thinkpads... but I don't like it a significant portion of it get's lost during scrolling and zooming. That's not emotion; that's pure productivity. There was a reason I paid 500 euro's for 20" (4:3) screens way back; because they were the biggest available.
     
  23. power7

    power7 Notebook Evangelist

    Reputations:
    155
    Messages:
    531
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    41
    The best alternative to W530, assuming you can live with the keyboard layout ( compared to desktop keyboards, the choices nowadays are between very bad layouts (some Dells, HPs, and pretty much everything else) and just horrible layout (Lenovo and Apple), is a laptop that:

    1) has decent build quality
    2) 32GB of RAM easily added
    3) 3+ TB of SSDs easily added, and don't cost much really (sub $500/TB)
    4) decent cooling
    5) DisplayPort 1.2 (i.e can hookup more than 2 high-res monitors)
    6) Has centered keyboard, with the exactly same keyboard layout available for on-the-desk use (after all you don't REALLY expect working with a workstation-grade laptop on your lap)
    7) Size-Weight is reasonable for travel (yes, your cellphone will weight less, whatever you choose, and is likely to have MUCH higher screen resolution if you're after ppi number, and a desktop will be FAR more powerful, especially if you care about GPU performance)
    8) Decent battery life in typewriter mode (like 6+ hours)
    9) Trackpoint that actually works, and is your device of choice, even with mouse or touchpad provided too
    ...

    Tada.. It's W530! Or W520, if you can sacrifice #5. Sadly, but true.
     
  24. Flickster

    Flickster Notebook Evangelist

    Reputations:
    104
    Messages:
    335
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    31
    As mentioned earlier, I've decided to keep my W530 for at least another year as there seems to be nothing out there worth making the upgrade to. My W530 is a solid spec: 16GB RAM, 3820QM CPU, K2000M GPU, FHD display and SSD and 750GBHDD combo, hence no rush to change it.

    The reasons for me normally upgrading every 2-3 yrs are:

    1. Due to me using my laptop for work, it gets a fair beating.
    2. The 2-3yr cycle is normally long enough for a decent upgrade to be available (not the case this time).
    3. I only have 2yrs warranty and I don't like being out of warranty (the 3rd yr extension option is $$$).
    4. As a result of working in the IT sector, I' am able to get approx a 35% discount per yr on a personal laptop, combined with works corporate preferential pricing makes buying a high spec unit a fairly inexpensive exercise.

    I really still enjoy using my w530, if anything I may upgrade to 32GB RAM down the track for more VMs but it's still a solid unit. The main reasons for me moving to a new unit would of been a better display (IPS and higher res), better graphics card and faster CPU, however looking at the options available there is really nothing in the 15inch form factor that provides a significant upgrade in these areas, apart from display, while still being reasonably priced and maintains other important features I have come to enjoy on my w530 such as:

    Hence why I've decided to wait another year. I also wanted to know where many Lenovo power users were moving to seeing that many are not happy with what the company is doing to the Thinkpad range, especially the W5XX series.
     
    huntnyc likes this.
  25. djembe

    djembe drum while you work

    Reputations:
    1,064
    Messages:
    1,455
    Likes Received:
    203
    Trophy Points:
    81
    As you get significant discounts on corporate purchases, an HP Zbook / Elitebook may be a decent next purchase in a year or two, as they tend to get high ratings on build quality. The biggest problem with a workstation from pretty much anyone but Lenovo is going to be battery life. Since most (if not all) other professional workstations are not compatible with Nvidia Optimus, none of them will have anywhere near the battery life of a Lenovo W-series.
     
    huntnyc likes this.
  26. jcvjcvjcvjcv

    jcvjcvjcvjcv Notebook Evangelist

    Reputations:
    35
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Most... but not all.

    The FHD (and lower I guess) versions of the Dell Precision M4800 with nVidia support Optimus. It's just that the Intel "GPU" can't handle the higher resolutions, so that's why it is disabled with the 3200x1800 screen.

    With HP you get arrow up and arrow down keys that are sized for 5-year olds.