Argh it hurts to see Thunderbolt (Light Peak) but no Thinkpads have it...

So Intel and Apple came out with Thunderbolt today, but Lenovo just came out with the new Thinkpads with no Thunderbolt. Though there's no Thunderbolt devices, it looks really promising, 10 Gbits up and down. It'd be perfect for daisy chaining a couple monitors, an external RAID drive, and an external graphics card.

Also Expresscard 2.0 is 5 Gbit/s and 1.0 is 2.5 Gbit/s, so there's no way an Expresscard adapter could deliver the full speeds of Thunderbolt.

So yeah, it's pretty disappointing that Lenovo doesn't have this tech in Thinkpads yet. I guess you can say USB 3.0 is a bigger deal now because it has actual products out, but Thunderbolt has several huge technical advantages, speed, latency, multiprotocol, etc.

Thunderbolt Technology

 

As you said: no devices to attach yet. Clearly, it is very good move for Intel (if any other-than-Apple company had offered it first, it wouldn't have made so much fuss).
Nevertheless - the current version is copper-based - not the optical one. Will it remain compatible when finally the fiber-based standard appears?
Anyway - the one daisy-chain for all devices seems to be great - next to the wireless solution

 

Why do you want to pay today for as yet unfulfilled promises of tomorrow?

 

LightPeak looks promising, but no need to jump onto new technology that has yet to deliver meaningful returns.

Though Intel is pushing it, it maybe a flop, as popular as Firewire or mini DP.

 

Future-proofing. No other laptop I/O does 10 Gbit/s (except video-out ports like Displayport), not even Expresscard 2.0 can reach 10 Gbit/s. So if you bought a laptop with Thunderbolt, you could ostensibly buy adapters for 10 Gb ethernet, USB 3.0, eSATA 6, Firewire 3200, or use Thunderbolt itself at 10 Gbits. Very good future-proofing that even Expresscard 2.0 couldn't deliver.

 

USB 2 > USB 3 > LightPeak when it comes to availability and hardware. So most notebook companies updated their models without LightPeak except for Apple. They seem to be very close to Intel (eg. they also accepted the faulty SATA boards it seems) and now they show off a new piece of connection. Time will tell if Apple either makes a new standard or tries to hold onto a dead technology for years. Without any other companies offering LightPeak I doubt anything will change soon.

 

There haven't been many 3.0 device yet (except for some storage devices), now intel want user to adopt to their standard.

 

Why would you care about something you can't even use? If I transfer a Blu-ray rip from my USB 2.0 hard drive onto my laptop, it probably takes about two minutes. If thunderbolt/lightpeak could do it in 30 seconds would that make a big difference to me? Probably not.

 

Time is money for some people! Unfortunately it is going to be overhyped, you need this to live!!! It's faster, and cheaper!!

 

I'm curious about something. If you have enough physical space to have a couple of monitors, an external RAID array, and a graphics card, wouldn't you have space for a desktop computer? I'm sure that in a couple of months (unless Apple and Intel have some sort of exclusivity agreement) we'll see lightpeak pci-e expansion cards for desktops.

Everybody person I've seen who uses a Laptop for ALL their computing needs also have somewhat limited needs for things like RAID arrays and more than 2 external monitors. Those (e.g. CAD artists, gamers) who do need this much equipment are better served by desktops.

There are probably only a handful of users who could honestly say a Laptop would be better for them than a desktop in the situation you've described.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see Lightpeak in a notebook, but it's going to be a while before we really see that bandwidth being used. Most people would probably be happy with USB 3.0 (still faster than a single SSD, much faster than HDDs) and a display port/HDMI connection.

Maybe in a year or two Lightpeak will gobble up all other connections. But until then, let's hit the barriers of existing technology before feeling bad because we don't have the newest interface.

 

That was the same reason that, a few years ago, people gave regarding why ExpressCard was must-have on laptops. Future proofing. And look at us now. ExpressCard is becoming increasing obsolete, and most people still have not yet found a use of it.

Same story with UWB. Same story with 802.11a.

Future proofing is a fool's errand because the future rarely turns out the way you expect it to. The future you want to "proof" is by no means guaranteed.

(Now, if you had answered "gadget lust", I would have understood.)

 

What do you mean "you can't even use"? Meaning there's no products out? Obviously there's no products out or even announced. But I still care because if this is where the tech industry is going, then it would be a good sign to see Lenovo adopt it.

By the way, you'd probably see about 20-30 MB/s on USB 2, whereas you can get 1 GB/s on Thunderbolt, it'd be up to 50x faster.

I don't think disk storage is really the primary focus anyways, I think it's going to be big for external graphics cards, servers, monitors, and other high-performance peripherals. I get that you don't really care if all you're doing is moving a Blu Ray rip around.

Expresscard is becoming obsolete because of Thunderbolt

I think the future is basically shaped by where tech companies drive us, and there definitely wasn't much widespread support for the stuff you mentioned.

But you should look on the other side of the coin: When USB came out, did you go around telling people it's a fool's errand to buy USB mice and keyboards and USB computers and they should stick to serial and PS/2 instead?

I guess people are skeptical, but I am excited by the possibilities.

I have a desk at home with room for a desktop, but I also need a laptop. Having two separate computers seems unnecessary for me, I think I would like to have one computer but be able to use one plug to connect to multiple devices at once, and with daisy chaining, it'd be an easier setup than having a dedicated dock or a USB hub- style device.

 

Being that this new technology is on an Apple, it seems to be promising. Apple has been somewhat of a leader in innovation: iPod, iPhone, iPad...

The rest of the world usually follows suit. Companies then release their own version with similar styling and features because Apple just created a market for it. Each market segment has followed the same trend. IMO, both USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt are the next big things.

 

lol I think you are missing the point. Nobody can predict the future. I can forsee a few years into the future, people facepalming because they bought all this LP stuff.

The best way to future-proof yourself is to keep your money in the bank.

 

Also I'd like to add that the sheer number of new connectivity standards has been frustrating, Displayport, HDMI, USB 2 and 3, eSATA 3 Gbit and 6 Gbit, Firewire 400, 800, 1600 and 3200, Ethernet 1 Gbit and 10 Gbit, PCIe External, Expresscard 1 and 2, SCSI, Fiber Channel, and probably others. In the tech world, we really need some sort of unification and Light Peak and Thunderbolt is supposed to be just that. It shouldn't be just a new standard among many, but the eventual path for all of our connectivity standards. (the fact that they're going to have fiber optic versions compatible with copper versions is also encouraging)

- Intel Thunderbolt: a closer look (updated with video) -- Engadget

 

I fully agree that Lightpeak moves us one step closer towards the death of desktops for just about everybody except the most hard core computing people.

I'd even like to see Lightpeak make its way onto devices like cell phones because I wouldn't by surprised if some people have replaced their laptops/desktops with cell phones by 2015. Just connect your devices to your cell phone via lightpeak.

But that doesn't change the fact that right now, Lightpeak needs a lot of industry support before that is going to happen. For all we know, next year manufacturers will come out great Lightpeak docks and say "You need Lightpeak 1.1, not Lightpeak 1.0."

So we shouldn't be too upset about it not being in the latest batch of Windows based laptops/PCs. I'll be there soon enough, and I imagine that the type of person who is willing to have (and spend money on) 3+ monitors, RAID arrays, external graphics cards, and what not will be willing to update to the latest laptop if they really do want to replace their desktop with it.

Firewire...

 

Well unless something else comes out that's more than 10 Gbit then there's nothing that Thunderbolt couldn't be converted to (eg through an adapter), even if the standard itself goes nowhere.

well I'm just trying to muse here on why it'd have been great for Lenovo to step up and offer the latest cutting edge tech. I'm also kind of weirded out by their refusal to either drop Firewire 400 or update it to Firewire 800.

Firewire is pretty widely used for video. For years it was the only way you could get video from many camcorders onto the PC because USB 1.1 wasn't fast enough.

 

Lenovo (along should Dell) business should add USB 3.0 first...

I agree with you on this point though. I'll bet we won't see lightpeak in many Windows based Laptops for a year. Why can't the big guys (HP, Dell, Lenovo) adopt stuff like Asus does (didn't they have USB 3.0 in a netbook before anybody else even had it in a laptop)? Even if you buy the best consumer lines (e.g. Studio XPS) they can really drag their feet when adopting new tech.

Firewire was supposed to be much more. I remember (back in 2000?) I was using a setup where we daisy chained 5 external hard drives using firewire. That blew my mind coming from USB 1.1 and PATA ribbon cables.

Back then people were talking about how Firewire (and the faster revisions) were going to eventually replace everything. I was looking forward to the day when even my internal hard drives would be connected to the motherboard with one wire for data and power.

So much for those dreams.

 

Thinkpads are 'business' laptops. Businesses aren't going to want to pay for unproven new tech with no devices that use it. I'd even bet that most users wouldn't want to pay for new tech that has no devices either.

 

They have USB 3 in the W series at least.

Firewire filled its niche pretty well, many years went by where it was the only interface which you would want to use for stuff like video or hard drives, because USB 1.1 wasn't fast enough. So "supposed to be much more", does that mean you thought it would be used for mice and keyboards or things like that? I would say Firewire has done well but it couldn't do everything, and it wasn't practical for everything (like internal hard drives or mice and keyboards). i don't think it really could have been more than it was.

Displayport was unproven tech with no devices that use it as well. Lenovo was one of the first to adopt that, actually.

 

Displayport = a display out, LightPeak = 3/4 of the I/O connectors on a laptop, there's a significant difference.

You seem to glorify LightPeak, why don't you go buy a Macbook Pro then.

 

actually Thunderbolt is Displayport. They're the same connector.

You seem to generalize.

Looks like there are some announced Thunderbolt peripherals.

 

what is thunderbolt?

 

display port =/= thunderbolt, they use the same port but does not mean they are the same.

 

Thinkpads are about true and tested technology, it is not a machine to cram the latest technology into their machines unless corporate industry needs it. Once all the dusts are settled from the hype and there are many products released that use this technology, then business laptops would start integrate these technology into their machines.

 

And there is a chance that, before you really get a chance to take advantage of Thunderbolt, it will be replaced by the next must-have "future-proof" technology.

I did not, but I really should have. USB 1.0 is a really terrible standard. Quote from Wikipedia: Does not allow for extension cables or pass-through monitors (due to timing and power limitations). Few such devices actually made it to market.

Widespread adoption of USB did not begin until the arrival of USB 1.1, which was released 2.5 years after USB 1.0. If you bought into USB 1.0 in order to be "future proof", you would have been totally screwed. The smart strategy would have been holding onto serial and PS/2 and then switching to USB 2.0, which arrived 4 years after the introduction of USB 1.0.

 

well Lenovo did USB 3.0 pretty early on with the W510. And that still isn't a true and tested technology.

Well I guess we'll have to have a difference of opinion then. Because if I bought a laptop at that time and it didn't have USB and a couple years later I found the perfect mouse and it was USB only (and assuming the laptop lasts that long, if it was a Thinkpad it'd certainly last that long ) then I'd be a little disappointed (and also if there was no way to add USB to the machine). I would take USB 1.0's lack of extension cables over having a laptop that couldn't work with the peripherals I want to use (and having to buy a new one).

But I am really doubting anything could really come out of nowhere and challenge Thunderbolt head-on. And there's no interface (that I know of) that offers the bandwidth and low latency of Thunderbolt. The point I was trying to make earlier was that even if Thunderbolt isn't widely adopted, it still can be converted to other standards, so at the very least you're not completely in the dark. So for instance, say I buy a laptop with Thunderbolt today, but USB 4.0 comes out (or something like that) and it offers 10 Gbit/sec. You can buy an adapter to convert from Thunderbolt to USB 4.0 and you'll still get 10 Gbit speeds, minus overhead. If you bought a regular laptop with no Thunderbolt, you couldn't convert anything to USB 4.0 and get the full speeds, you'd only get a fraction of that (2.5 Gbits from Expresscard 1.0, which looks like the only version that's even being used today).

So unless something has >10 gbit speeds that's coming out in the future, Thunderbolt will at the minimum serve as a bridge or a conduit into future technologies, if not being the I/O of the future.

Now I can see that people don't need it today or even think there's a use for it, but I think the PC makers are kind of lounging out this opportunity at innovation. I guess we'll see if they adopt it in a year or so when the new Thinkpads come out. LOL.

 

Sandybridge, Cougar point, and Sandy Bridge Graphics, and the 4200M are all brand new technologies in the latest Thinkpads.

HP and Dell, along with adopting the above, changed their chassis and totally changed their screens. HP added USB 3.0 and Dell added HDMI 1.4 (dumping displayport).

And jaakbo as been pointed out, USB 3.0 was adopted for their high end workstations in the last refresh. USB 3.0 still has bugs, such as where some USB 3.0 chips (e.g. the chip in the external drive enclosure and the chip in the computer) have major problems with each other. It's still in its infancy.

Does the industry need Sandybridge and all these update?. A lot of business users could have waited another 6 months (so all of this could have been tested more) before getting all these updates.

Lenovo, Dell, and HP adopt what they need to to stay competitive. They don't want to lose sales to a competitor. If Lightpeak had been announced along with 100 business focused vendors announcing products, Lenovo would have found a way to put this new tech in their laptops.

Sometimes I think business laptop makers drag their feet with adopting tech because they know businesses are slow (in comparison to the consumer segment) to adopt new tech. They only give the "we only use tried and true" as an excuse to justify waiting until they absolutely have to. Why put more in your laptop when you can put less? You can make more money that way.

And before somebody says I'm full of BS, I do understand why Lightpeak in not in the Thinkpads.

I think the challenge to Lightpeak/Thunderbolt is much more insidious. There seems to be something very fishy going on. First, Intel claims there is no exclusivity agreement with Apple, but then claims we won't see serious adoption outside the Apple world until 2012. Intel also says they will adopt USB 3.0 support into their chipsets, but apparently doesn't want to say when. This occurs when USB 3.0 is finally making some inroads into devices you can buy at stores (e.g. portable drives) and we could really use native support in their chipsets.

I suspect there is something else going on behind the scenes. Maybe implementing lightpeak is too expensive. Maybe there is some hidden fee that manufacturers are not willing to pay. Maybe different manufacturers are trying to kill lightpeak or USB 3.0 for political reasons.

There's always a lot more to technology adoption by manufacturers than consumers know. A lot of people feel like the tech world is simple and "It's great tech! It's going to be huge" is what drives technology. But there's always other stuff going on behind the scenes.

Or maybe I'm insane and reading into all of this too much.

 

No it's more like Apple and Intel start the race early, Intel didn't tell other vendor where and when the race is going to start. After all Apple is the partner that help develop the technology. Lenovo and other vendor have no access to Lightpeak until now, where Apple already have the product ready to ship. They are most likely introduce the technology in their next product lifecycle which is going to be next year.

 

1. These CPU are just incremental improvements, so is usb 3.0.

2. Light peak is a totally new technology and it has yet to prove itself against other technology.

 

And 640k of memory is all you'll ever need.

Wow, I am really enjoying this thread. Embrace change folks.

 

Honestly, I don't care at all about Light Peak -- for now.

Three years down the road, maybe. For now? Not a big deal.

Here's how I figure it. The USB 3.0 spec was released in 2008. The first certified consumer products were announced during CES 2010. After a year, how many of us have/use USB 3.0 devices? I'd bet not many.

I didn't mind when the 2009 and 2010 generations of ThinkPad were released without USB 3.0, and I don't even mind that the current ones lack it. I don't think I'm alone in feeling that. It's the same deal for Light Peak; it'll be a while before Light Peak becomes important, and a *long* time before it becomes a business necessity (if it ever does.)

 

I've been using a SIIG USB 3.0 enclosure with my W510 since they came out.

I could actually put the MBP and Lacie drive to use right now.

 

It's correct that, today, it's not such a big deal that they don't have USB 3 or they don't have Thunderbolt. But we have to really consider how much technology is moving forward. SSDs are becoming faster, cheaper, with more storage capacity. And their speeds are skyrocketing. The Intel X25M almost maxed out SATA 2 in speeds, prior to that, no hard drives got near SATA 1's speed (well maybe some did, but it's still rare to find hard drives that do a sustained 100+ MB/s). Now, after SATA 3 has been on the market for mere months, the Sandforce 2000 based drives are nearly maxing out SATA 3's speeds. In order to take advantage of these drastic increases in speeds, we're going to need interfaces that won't stand in the way. Now I know people aren't really using SSDs too much for external storage, but the trend is that they'll get faster, cheaper, and offer more capacity, so I expect in merely years we'll see much more mainstream SSDs out there.

Now I can see that Lenovo doesn't want unproven technology in their products (although I do believe they've had unproven technology in past products), but I really hope to see Lenovo and other PC makers (6 months to 1 year from now) jump in and take advantage of Thunderbolt's potential.

 

who knows; if suddenly intel finds a flaw in the current thunderbolt and next year they bring out thunderbolt 2.0 ....

the word "U-S-B" and "U-S-B 2" is more common to all consumers; may it be geeks or to just ordinary people who sees it as the most economical way to connect their devices to their computers. Therefore when "U-S-B 3" comes out people will instantly understand what its purpose and due to the "3" in it; would mean that it will "be" faster than "2".

Thunderbolt has a good start with Apple. I can see it as the 'firewire' of 2011; popular upon mac users and other multimedia editors but not so much on the rest of the population.

Thunderbolt can become the new gold-standard / executive standard for connecting devices and as per this time; "bragging rights" for people to say that they have the new MBPs.

I'm sure the next alterations of WDC and Seagate's external hard drives will have thunderbolt support... but only for the premium "MAC" versions with their premium price tags (e.g.: mybook studio) of their products (increasing the egos of mac users).

right now number of thunderbolt compatible peripherals: zero. No sense in having a port for that in the thinkpad IMO. We already complain that the TPs have high prices; this is just another excuse to jack up the prices since it still new technology.

If I needed to buy a new laptop (not just a thinkpad) right now and use it for the next 3 years; the lack of thunderbolt port will have zero impact on my decision.

 

Amount of memory and light peak are hardly comparable (as in they aren't... at all).

The point is, there is no guarantee that this will even take hold and there are no current devices that utilize it. Thus it's useless to the vast majority of people (except those who 'future proof'... which is silly IMO, especially for laptops) and ESPECIALLY for businesses.

 

true.

when the vast majority of consumers needs to transfer files with 100GB+ in sizes everyday; that is the time when thunderbolt speeds will be in demand and become mainstream...

... that or thunderbolt was never meant to be mainstream.

 

I think there will be a number of barriers to adoption. If each device needs two thunderbolt ports for daisy chaining, that's an issue that will drive cost.

Guess we'll know by this time next year when the W530 comes out.

 

My point being if you can't use why spend money for it? The typical notebook cycle is three years. By the time this is mainstream, you'll have moved on.

 

Not that it matters,

I believe USB 3.0 > LightPeak.

Why? Backwards compatibility with a wider range of devices (even if they're slower).

This LightPeak is starting to remind me of the FireWire vs USB days.

Knowing Apple, those promised peripherals would probably follow Apple's simple aesthetics with an absurd price tag vs alternatives.

 

If one seriously considers photo/movie editing, then a new MacPro and a LaCie SSD connected through the Thunderbolt interface makes sense.

PS
It is a smart move to use the Thunderbolt name now, when the interface is just electric, and reserve the LightPeak for the future, optical, solution.

 

Thinkpad weren't always the first to embrace new technology, just look at when Thinkpads started to introduce HDMI/Displayport on their machines.

 

Regardless of the connectivity benefits, video editing eats up ram, and macbook pros only support 8GB of ram.

 

You are right, of course.

PS
I've just noticed another factor in the Thunderbolt equations: Nikon D4 to support Light Peak (Thunderbolt)? | Nikon Rumors

 

dell released the first displayport monitor in april 2008.   the X301 was released with on-board displayport in august 2008 along with docks with displayport for the larger systems.   i'm sure some other company might have been quicker to introduce it but i doubt it was by more than a few months.   more here: Inside the Box Technology Brief ? DisplayPort

HDMI was slow to show up but that's because it wasn't viewed as an important connection for business travelers.   even though some thinkpads have had HDMI since 2008, it's still considered a consumer connection to this day.

 

"I think you are missing the point. Nobody can predict the future. I can forsee a few years into the future, people facepalming because they bought all this LP stuff."

I think people are hugely missing the point. Other than cpu's Lenovo is not a hi-tech company. Lenovo sells reliability. They sell cpu's because they are capitalists and need something to sell or they wouldn't exist.

"I fully agree that Lightpeak moves us one step closer towards the death of desktops for just about everybody except the most hard core computing people. "

I have both. I develop and will have both as long as i live. There are reasons for desktops.

"Thinkpads are about true and tested technology, it is not a machine to cram the latest technology into their machines unless corporate industry needs it. Once all the dusts are settled from the hype and there are many products released that use this technology, then business laptops would start integrate these technology into their machines. "

This is so true.

"Sandybridge, Cougar point, and Sandy Bridge Graphics, and the 4200M are all brand new technologies in the latest Thinkpads. "

We've already talked abour CPUs except one thing. We're being take for a ride. In the eighties, I worked for Digital. Thirty people worked comfortably on a 4 mb machine and now a machine with 1000 times that much memory is small? Software doesn't do any more....

"And 640k of memory is all you'll ever need."

Perhaps in the micro world.....

"Wow, I am really enjoying this thread. Embrace change folks.

Now, after SATA 3 has been on the market for mere months, the Sandforce 2000 based drives are nearly maxing out SATA 3's speeds. "

I think Sandforce is built on 25 nanometer technology. There are complaints that it rapidly get's slower. Tom's Hardware backs up the complaints.

Lenovo is not about change, it's about reliability.
Renee

 

Woah that's weird. I thought you could at least put in 2 8 GB modules and get 16 GB of RAM, but the Apple website says 8 GB maximum supported. Weird because it's the same quad core processors and chipsets as the W520 (I think) but the W520 can handle 32 GB of RAM through 4 slots with 8 GB in each slot.

 

I was struck by the same same thing. Now I don't usually post here but your post prompted me to submit the following quote regarding Thunderbolt:

Thunderbolt = Light Peak = Mini DisplayPort + PCI Express – Stephen Foskett, Pack Rat

As mentioned, just about any existing PCI Express chipset can reside on this Thunderbolt bus, and the topology is extremely flexible. A Thunderbolt peripheral could be an endpoint, using the PCI Express lanes to drive FireWire, USB, Fibre Channel, or just about any other interconnect. It could also be a hub, allowing further Thunderbolt connections, or a pass-through in a daisy-chain topology.

Once you internalize this the lack of peripheral availability isn't an issue at all. I'm certain we will see Thunderbolt "hubs" that will feature connections to legacy devices in the near future.

Note also this little gem:

Whoa there! So this little Mini DisplayPort connector includes 20 Gb/s of throughput in each direction, plus up to two DisplayPort v1.1a connections with 8.64 Gb/s each. This yields a grand total of 57 Gb/s over that slim wire. That’s one impressive interconnect!

IMO Apple competitors must be quite pissed at Intel for providing exclusivity for such a major breakthrough and likely are scrambling to cut that potential 12 months lead time in half. We will see...

p.s. This is in computing terms a generational jump and I BADLY want one to future proof my system!

 

"future proof"

A contradiction in terms.

Renee

 

Obviously within the life expectancy of the device. But that is usually understood in tech circles. We aren't talking about Eniacs here.

At this point any laptop not supporting Thunderbolt should be considered obsolete already. Intel, not by accident, calls this revolutionary technology for laptops.

IMO this development is so disruptive that it will soon affect higher end sales of Apple's competitors.