Are the current crop of Think Pads suffering mfg defects many have reported from last years' models?

I really want to get a 440s but I've been reading about a raft of quality control problems with Thinkpads produced over the past 2-3 years. Would owners of recent products say that they're back to historical mfg quality standards?

 

I purchased an x220 about 3 years ago. I have had nothing but problems with it due to buying the i7 model and it having improper thermal paste application. Constantly heats up to 96 celsius..

I bought a Helix when they first came out and it also had nothing but problems. The glass track pad was misaligned and so it 'clicked' loudly as the glass caught on the keyboard deck. The back of the lid also creaked with pressure and the internal battery in the keyboard dock was frequently unrecognized after joining it to the tablet piece. I returned it and ordered another, only to face other ridiculous issues. The replacement model had the most uneven back lighting I have ever seen on a laptop, with the entire lower left corner of the panel looking like a flashlight was shining on it. Battery life was way below what Lenovo promised as well.. could barely get 4 hours of the Helix with any moderate use.

After sending the Helix back, I waited until the Thinkpad Yoga came out. The track point buttons embedded in the glass track pad made a LOUD clicking sound, and the screen itself creaked when pressing my hands on it when using it in a tablet fashion. The screen back lighting was almost as bad as the Helix, and the battery life was barely 1/2 of what Lenovo stated on their website. TP Yoga went back.

I now have a Haswell X1 carbon on order, but if this new laptop has as many issues as my other recent purchase attempts, I will be done with Lenovo forever. They really need to get their act together on screen panel sourcing and making sure their track pads are consistent. After using the Helix and TP Yoga, it was clear they were made differently (TP Yoga = no dampening on the track pad clicking motion).

 

QC over the last 2-3 years? Not sure it's easy to generalize since that covers several model generations.

Personally I've had more problems with hardware and software (drivers etc.) on my new T440p than any other Thinkpad I've ever bought (and I've been buying them since the late 1990s), but this could just be bad luck rather than a sign that quality is declining.

I always got the impression that Thinkpads were released with tried and tested hardware back in the IBM days, which meant you might buy a machine that was a little behind the cutting edge but at least it was guaranteed to be mature technology that worked.

 

I only bought three in the last four years, i3 E420, i7 X220, i5 T430. None has any problem.

On the other hand, I would avoid buying the first batch of builds, which is more prone to problems.

 

I'd argue that if one is willing to accept playing "screen lottery" to begin with, T440s is likely the safest buy from the current batch of ThinkPads.

My $0.02 only...

 

I have purchased 2 Thinkpads over the past couple months and it hasn't been without issue.

The first was a Thinkpad Yoga, I am typing on it now, and it is great except for a bad group of pixels on the lcd panel. I have been waiting a couple months for stock to have the screen replaced. It took a week for support to get the warranty right to even get the ticket open.

I just took delivery of a x240 and it is horrible. When you close the lid/screen the right side is flush but there is a gap on the left side that is over 1/8". In addition to this the seams of the computer have a lot of jagged edges.

I am returning the x240 and either going to go with another Yoga or try the T440 gamble and hopefully get a good LCD panel.

 

IMO the TP Yoga build quality is far better than the T-series (which is probably similar to the X-series). My T440p has that sharp seam where the top part of the case slightly overhangs the bottom. It's very poor design and finishing IMO. That and the flexy lid ruin what would otherwise be a solid (if dull) laptop.

 

My x120e (from ~May 2011) hasn't had any hardware issues whatsoever, no components replaced (aside from adding a 2GB stick of RAM as soon as I got it). It took them quite a while to fix the touchpad drivers though. 2-finger scrolling was incredibly bad at first, and it kept resetting my 'scroll X number of lines' setting to 1 for some reason (which naturally made external mice annoying to use). In any case, with a few driver updates they got all that resolved (though it took a while to fix 2 finger scrolling as I recall), and at some point they added support for flicking from the sides in Windows 8.x. (I ran 7, then 8.1 beta, then 8.1 release on here - I skipped over 8 completely.)

I'm also considering buying a T440s - 1080p with touch. Note: I haven't used any of the current ones in person - no stores around here that carry them. I have used the T430 and the previous X1 carbon though, both of which felt solid. Plus, I use x131e's all the time at school - I don't believe those have rollcages, but they're plenty rubberized and durable. I don't worry about dings and scratches on those, that's for sure.

 

Anyone who thinks the ThinkPads of yore were flawless has a memory problem. Perfection at $1,000 or two would seem to be very good deal.

 

I can't recall any issues I had with my X220t besides personal opinion (crappy clickpad, fat battery). Then again I bought a late production X220t where the LCD ghosting issues were resolved. Heard people complain about the digitizer drivers but I never had an issue with it. Great little laptop, wish I hadn't sold it, my only ThinkPad I actually bought new new.

 

Current models seem to be built not as sturdy as the old ones when it comes to materials, overall rigidity, etc.

 

That's one way of putting it, although I'm not quite certain that it holds true 100%...

I had a chance to play with a T440p FHD a couple of weeks ago. A couple of quick impressions would include:

a) A great screen. No questions asked.

b) Even if I wanted to - which is not the case - I doubt that I could ever get used to the new TrackPoint setup. Pretty certain that the machine would end up smashed to pieces or returned to Lenovo first.

c) Keyboard feels more shallow than the ones on *30 series. It might have been just this particular piece and/or manufacturer, but I did sense a feeling of travel loss.

d) The laptop, generally speaking, doesn't feel like a ThinkPad at all when held. Something about it reminded me of an old business-grade HP that my daughter owned at one point, but that might just be my warped memory. While I wouldn't say it feels cheap, it most definitely does feel different, and in a way that I don't find attractive. Obviously, to each their own.

My $0.02 only...

 

You nailed it.... it doesn't feel like any previous generation of Thinkpad and it certainly doesn't look like one. In fact, it looks like a Toshiba I owned circa 1998. I guess retro styling is back in fashion

 

No, you're probably not far off, the style of the T440P reminds me a lot of my old HP 8510P.

I don't see how that is a bad thing...... that system looked gorgeous, was built like a tank, and gave me absolutely no problems in 4 years before it was replaced with a T420 and passed-down to my lady friend. And it is still rocking along nicely today, if not for a line of stuck pixels caused by a degrading display cable and a bloated Win7 install. And frankly, while I do appreciate the form-over-function of the T420, the T440P manages to maintain that (except for the trackpad) while looking MUCH better IMHO.

Also...... COMIC SANS!

Wait, so the black box of the older Thinkpads is new and stylish, and other laptops are retro? Now I've heard everything!

 

Just in case my point was left unclear in the previous post: I was NOT bashing HP and their design at all. However, an EliteBook - or any business-grade HP of yesteryear - is not a ThinkPad.

T420 is outright ugly in my opinion, which doesn't make it a bad machine per se. Having said that, it feels like a ThinkPad to me, while T440p doesn't.

As for Comic Sans in my posts: get used to it, or ignore my writings altogether. The font in question is not going anywhere.

Just in case you missed most of the past two decades when it comes to ThinkPads: they were designed as black boxes on purpose.

The "colourful" approach to ThinkPads reminds me of wearing a pink tuxedo to one's own wedding, but I'm old-fashioned and conservative in more ways than just one.

 

Wow, little miss defensive, eh? I thought I wrote a fairly jovial and positive post, but apparently not.

 

You just happened to jump on the bandwagon that I have very little patience for. Not to mention the fact that it had absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

Back to the aforementioned topic, your points were well-presented and worthy of further discussion. Your snide comments are not.

 

Wow. Talk about a Thinkpad diehard! You should get an award from Lenovo for giving them 4 second chances!

Hi. I'm the OP of this thread. Both my son and daughter in University need a new computer and I'm having a terrible time deciding whether it is a mistake to saddle them with a no-longer-reliable-well-made Thinkpad. This one post kind of summarized them all. Of course, one can have problems with all different products, but it's harder to get great discounts on Thinkpads like you could a few years ago and I'm coming to the conclusion that the design and performance of Thinkpads are better than ever but the quality control and customer service are going south. Doesn't leave much choice for "business class" product, as Dell and HP are quite expensive as well. Maybe just buy "disposable" cheap laptops backed up to the cloud. Thoughts?

 

If anything, comic sans looks worse at 96dpi - aliasing is more noticeable to me. (cleartype, pretty good monitor here) I know this isn't what he was getting at, but it is something to consider. (of course, the same goes for Times font in that regard) I'll happy when hiDPI on the Windows side of things (multiple monitors of different DPIs and third party apps mainly) starts really improving. That, and when I can buy a hiDPI laptop that can actually be upgraded and serviced by the end user.


In any case, are there any of us around here that actually like the new integrated buttons? From what I've heard though, I'm not convinced that the quality is actually any different. As for the HP 8510p someone mentioned, I've seen plenty of HP machines like it and happen to like that design (much more so than their newer all-silver brushed-metal Elitebook design). I don't entirely like Lenovo's new design from the stock pictures I've seen, but then again, it looks fine in other pictures. If only there were a store nearby with them, though I don't think it'll be too much of an issue for me...

And just FWIW, my x120e is nearly 3 years old, is definitely not based on the older design (no rollcage, cleaner design that's more like the X1 and newer machines than the older ones), has been taken with me to school a lot, and is still holding up quite well. No hardware replaced whatsoever (aside from adding a stick of RAM in addition to the stock 2GB). That was a ~$450 machine as well.

 

No, the black-box styling of Thinkpads was very much part of the brand and had been more or less unchanged for several decades (at least since I started buying them in the late 1990s). Surely if a company's gonna throw out a classic design they might come up with something a little more original than a plain dark-gray featureless box that Thinkpad competitors used to look like.

On another note, I'm curious if Lenovo's fixed the shoddy-feeling plastic assembly of the T440p. If I slide my finger up the front edge of the machine it catches on a sharp overhang where the top and bottom parts of the case meet. It's perhaps my biggest gripe with the basic build and I cannot tell if it's a deliberate "feature" or just crummy manufacturing tolerances.

 

Generally speaking, I always advise against "disposable" laptops - and most other things in life - but since I'm not the one providing you with funds, maybe I should just shut up and play my guitar, to paraphrase late great Frank Zappa.

I'd suggest taking a peak at Dell and HP business outlets where a previous-generation-model can be purchased with 3 year NBD on-site warranty. Depending on what size machine one is looking for, and what they're looking to spend, some pretty decent deals can be had there most of the time.

My $0.02 only...

 

As a long time thinkpad user, my T40 felt the sturdiest. I was not impressed by the quality of the W540. The 8770w that I am using now gives me the confidence of a well built machine, like my T40 did.

 

Well, 8770W will make most of today's laptop feel inadequate and cheap...a very impressive machine indeed.

T40 is to this day the prettiest ThinkPad in my opinion.

 

I'm been looking for one of these for awhile....



The newer (or rather later IBM models) I found didn't have much beauty. Best were the super old IBM ones like 701C, Transnote.

 

When was the touchpad the selling point for thinkpads? In my experience they are always lousy.

op: why not just go to each individual owner thread to check it out for yourself?

 

I know of a near-dead-mint TransNote with instruction manual and almost everything apart from the original box but that one won't come cheap...an amazing piece of engineering that laptop (?) was...

 

From my experience with Lenovo, they have screwed up too many times with me to even care about quality anymore.

Take a look at this:

I'm returning my ThinkPad Yoga. There are too many issues, from what I've read, starting with the LCD ghosting issue. I'm sure not everyone gets the same issue, but I'd rather not gamble with it. The device, in my hands, looks great and compact but there are some things that I don't like:

1. The audio quality is absolutely terrible. I feel like I'm listening to something out of a tiny box or using a child's toy. I have heard much better.

2. The "magnesium-alloy" chassis is really not as great as it sounds in terms of simply feeling the device, but the device still does have a very durable build to it. (A ThinkPad standard, I'm sure)

3. The touchpad is too dang loud. If I was in a library, using this device, not only would it annoy me but I'm sure I'd get eyes.

4. Pushing the lid back for Tablet Mode is harder to do than usual, but I guess they did that intentionally since it's supposed to be super sturdy (ThinkPad standards again?). Even so, you can hear a faint creak sometimes -- that screams cheap.

5. The lack of ports is annoying. I understand it's an Ultrabook, but for a business Ultrabook? Come on. That OneLink dock is overpriced and absolute clutter for those who are trying to keep it simple (but still useful) on the go. I have seen non-business Ultrabooks with more ports.

6. The bezel on this device is horrid; it's an absolute nightmare. They could have definitely been a bit more generous with respect to the display since it's already enough that it's a 12.5" device. The bezel makes it 10x worse for me. The TPY could have definitely been at least 13.3 inches instead of 12.5" to make up for the bezel disaster.

7. I'm also not a fan of the Fn key being on the far left. Not fond of it at all.

For the price I paid for this device, and the terrible customer service I had to experience (over a month of delay + shady associates not following the requests of the customer, but mislead them anyway), it is definitely not worth it. I had an associate from Lenovo offer me 7% off of my order total OR double that in accessories as a compensation, but even then, the flaws of this device are too much (and the service) to keep it for that price. I have enough email evidence to make a big fuss out of this (customer service-wise), but I may not.

----

To the OP: You might not even be interested in the ThinkPad Yoga, but I thought I'd let you know anyway before dealing with Lenovo. It's always good to see a perspective from all angles.

 

I've found the touchpads on the mainstream ThinkPads to be very usable. The one on my T60/T61/Z61t/Z60m/T400 were all fine. X series and X tablet didn't get touchpad until X220t.

 

Actually, X30* and X201/T were the first X series with a "mandatory" touchpad.

Not that it matters to me: on all ThinkPads in this household - apart from my daughter's "spare" T60 - touchpads are disabled in BIOS if they exist in the first place...

To OP: what size machine(s) are you looking for and what are you willing to spend per unit? Starting a new thread in "Which laptop should I buy" section might not be a bad idea...

 

I agree, this thread will pretty much bring the OP a variety of experiences (which some may be factual and opinionated), which is a good thing for informative purposes when shopping around, but to look for what laptop to buy, I would recommend starting in that forum as well, OP.

 

I shall do that, but now will exclude Lenovo/Thinkpads as options. Three years ago everyone would have booed me off the forum for suggesting there was anything inherently wrong with Thinkpad products or customer service. I still expect the same from the WNSIB? thread, which has always had an incredibly strong Thinkpad bias. It's such a shame that now that they have finally come to parity in terms of performance and features, they have fallen off the grid in terms of quality and support.

Thank you all very much for your candid comments.

 

Pretty sure the X200/X201 had touchpads:

 

Actually it was the X201 and onward that came with trackpads. I have an X200 and an X200tablet- both do not have trackpads.

 

The X200 and tablet version never came with touchpads. The X201 and X201t had an option for for a touchpad which was not popular. And I was referring to the tablet version, hence you see X200/X201t.

 

IIRC , the following ThinkPad models have used screens ( AH-IPS panels) that have could have serious image retention issues:
X220 , X220t , X230 , X230t , X240 , ThinkPad Yoga

 

seems like an issue in the industry with these types of panels, part of the reason why I'm still using high gamut TN panels till these sort these issues out

 

I do recall that PLS panels and IGZO panels don't suffer from image retention as much as AH-IPS panels do.

 

I doubt there is a study to reach that conclusion: most people have at most a couple of data samples, and in the one data sample that I have (x220) there is no image retention at all.

 

The original panel that came with my X230t had image retention issues.