April Fools

Lenovo to split into Lenovo Business Group and Think Business Group, effective in April

Time for a forum restructure?

 

Can't wait for them to remove the Lenovo logo from my ThinkPad lids.

"... the Think brand is his company's best asset in the high-end market, and that it is the only brand that can compete with Apple in the high-end market"? High-end market? Apple? Can't wait for their myopic followers to stop claiming that certain uninspired decisions -- like lousy screens -- are due to corporate/business requirements.

Get ready for aluminum unibody notebooks and smooth-as-silk glass trackpads.

 

Amen.

Some of us have been getting ready for this type of debacle for a couple of years now...ever since the "new" keyboard layout was introduced on "economy" models...

 

You never know. The new boss may do a rollback on some of the ThinkPad models.

Hopefully the new chiefs for the ThinkPad brand will also care about quality control. The defect rate on the X1 Carbon Touch is a shining example of where they need to hit pause and assess core values.

And with any luck, the new bosses will also want some excellent screen options.

 

Rollback, yes. Some rationalization should be in order: focus on fewer models and execute on them extremely well.

The range of models and options per model is bewildering. Nothing really stands out.

 

Does Sharpie come with rubberized ink?

 

Someone better clue in Dr. Hortensius that they're gonna need better display options if they want to expand to the consumer market.

 

Yay! This is good news. They at least acknowledge the different business vs. general consumer markets. There is hope for the ThinkPad brand.

 

Who do you guys think is best placed to bring out PC's answer to the retina display? Lenovo (or Think), Dell, HP, sony, samsung? waiting ...

 

Samsung makes Retina displays for Apple. That is what my 15" has. Other makers also make the Retina screens for them. LG I think.

Samsung also makes PLS screens which are very good. You can see them on the 13.3" Series 9 machines.

The screen on our T430s is made by Samsung and it is certainly sufficient for many business and pleasure roles. I would have liked an option for a better screen. I would have liked an IPS Touch. In fact, if the X1 Carbon came with a superior IPS screen, we wouldn't even have the T430s.

I'm not sure who the maker is for the ASUS ZenBook screens, but they are pretty highly regarded. They probably have multiple suppliers like everyone else.

 

the division between ideapad and thinkpad is not new, but the thinkpad division seems to have more responsibility and more product coverage now. Because the service of thinkpad is led by IBM, this will benefit the users.

 

It's not myopic, but reality, given the price points for ThinkPads. Sure, Apple has the retina MBP Pros and HP offers the DreamColor LCD, but they sell for three times what a typical ThinkPad does. Most notebooks screens just aren't that great. The history of ThinkPads is replete with crappy screens with a few exceptions. I say show me a notebook that is as well built and sells for around the price of a ThinkPad that's got a great screen?

Large institutional buyers, who largely drive the design, care about cost and compatibility with screen quality low on the priority list for the most part. Until that changes, you probably won't see better screens. I'm all for better screens, but then question becomes, are there enough people willing to pay more to get better screens to move the market? I'm not sure that there is, at least not right now. For every post here bemoaning the poor quality screens offered on ThinkPads, there's more attempting to squeeze dollars from Lenovo. The people here are also enthusiasts who are likely to express dissatisfaction with the screen that the typical buyer, at least in my experience, which makes it seem the market for better screens is bigger than it is in reality.

 

While there's quite some merit to the arguments expressed above, my question would be why Lenovo shies away from offering a *proper* LCD on a MBPR/DC level at a substantial premium? They'll never know whether there's a market for those unless they actually start offering them...but they can't be bothered.

The main difference between IBM and Lenovo concepts - in my not-so-modest opinion - is that IBM's ThinkPads were trend-setters, for the most part. Lenovo products - with a very few exceptions - are merely followers.

I know that IBM lost a ton of money through their PC Division - but there's got to be a middle ground - and every time I dare think that Lenovo is about to take it I get a slap in the face...

 

I'm not really sure how to feel regarding this bit of news, and I'm assuming we won't see any designs or products out of the *new* Think group until next year at the earliest?

I think the build quality and screen quality needs to improve (the latter significantly) if they want to take on Apple. The X1 carbon looks great on paper, the price is already at a higher, apple competitive tier, yet the quality of most of the units is just not up to par with what it should be. None of this is going to be an easy task for Lenovo.

 

That's a good question to which I don't have an answer. While Mac faithful seem willing to gobble up anything Apple tosses out there, I doubt HP sells a lot of Elitebooks with the DC2 given the price and the fact they're pretty heavy, just as Lenovo presumably didn't sell many $3,000 X300. Perhaps they feel it's not worth the effort for such a small market.

I agree in the IBM days there was much more innovation, but it was also a very different market back then. I remember looking into getting a T60 when they were first released. A new one witha 14" SXGA+ LCD and Intel GPU was around $1,400, which is why I opted for the R60 that I got for $800 and that was very reasonable. Today, if you know how to play the game, you can probably get that notebook for half of what the T60 cost. Manufacturers are under enormous cost pressure and the majority of buyers are very cost sensitive. I get asked a lot what notebook to buy, not just here, and cost is almost always the first question. People ask about size and performance, but screen quality does not often come up. Look at all the posts in the WSIBN now forum where people are trying squeeze into the best notebook for the least cost. This is true for all manufacturers, not just Lenovo. As soon as they they raise prices to offer something better, it will likely cost them sales. I don't see a fairy tale ending where if Lenovo offered better screens everyone would rush to buy them, maybe if they eat the most of the cost increase.

Notebooks are shrinking market too. I look at my Nexus 7 and it can do 95% of what I need on the go and it's far more portable/convenient than my X220i. It fits right in my pocket, it offers snappy performance for most things and has a very nice IPS screen. About my only issue with is the glass screen cover, which is often annoyingly reflective. Hopefully, someone smarter than I can figure this whole thing out. I'd love to get a T430 with the HD+ LCD that's as good as the X1C, sort of a tweener of my X220i and R60e, but unfortunately, I can't buy that notebook right now.

 

I think there are other factors that will drive different design choices and decisions.

I used to laugh at the notion consumerization of IT was going to have an impact, but you can see it everywhere.

Would touch screens on PCs be happening at all right now if it weren't for the iPad?
Would Metro exist if it wasn't for the iPad?
Would the X1 Carbon Touch exist if it wasn't for the iPad?
Would the ASUS Zenbook exist if it wasn't for the MacBook Air?
Would the X1 series exist if it wasn't for the MacBook Air?

I get that a lot of people have external LCD panels for their day job, but those same people have a W T F moment every time they take the T430s home and compare it to their Retina iPad, iPhone and other personal devices.

Consumerization is creating immense pressure.

Why doesn't Lenovo just take the next step and actually try to delight their customers? Now there's a thought.

 

Leaders change the status quo.

Followers try to stay alive within the status quo.

Followers of followers try to come up with interesting arguments to justify the followers' behaviors.

 

Was there a point in there somewhere? I don't see how spouting platitudes helps move the discussion along.

I don't think anyone here is defending Lenovo or the lack of good screens, but rather explaining how things to be as they are. Is anyone here against good screens? That's sort of like being against Mom and apple pie. You act as if it's easy as flipping a switch and then Lenovo could offer IPS screens to everyone. I would bet it's far more complicated than that. Lenovo is smart. If they could find a way to offer better screens and make a buck, they do it, but they have to make a profit or there's no reason for them to exist. They're one of the few PC makers right now who's doing well.

I have no doubt Apple is having a major effect on notebook/ultrabook and software design. I would add to your list the fact that the X220/X230 have an IPS LCD is directly related to the iPad. After netbooks, ultraportables are probably the most effected by the iPad for the reasons I stated above.

 

"Was there a point in there somewhere?"

Uh, yes. Several good points have been made.

 

Are they really?

This is a company that screwed up the launch of their last two flagship products, has sales/marketing people who don't know (or lie about) their products, has separated development/production among lines that inhibits/prohibits leveraging of procurement and innovation -- and is now looking to make them even more separate. My Edge-developed crippled T-series 430u languishes because of horrible business decisions. Happy to be proven wrong in the future, but I don't see smart, savvy business practices of late.

 

To most (not all, granted...) people, 'smart' means 'successful' and most commonly (particularly in this context) in a business sense.

Lenovo has never been more successful in the PC space and is well on the way to being No.1 worldwide (or already number 1 depending on the literature you prefer to trust).

I don't agree with many of the steps taken in the brand's evolution either, but any argument that they are 'stupid' (or your choice of word for the antonym of 'smart') is probably going to be quite stupid itself. Anyone waiting on their demise for them to 'realize their mistakes' is going to be waiting for a very long time.

There's certainly room for a strategy like Apple's, and room for a strategy like Lenovo's in today's multi-tiered market. What I can't figure out is why there are so many Apple fans/supporters (note that I choose not to use the potentially aggravating word 'fanboy') on these Lenovo forums; why don't you guys just go to the Apple sub-forums instead and leave the people here alone, instead of criticizing every other thing that Lenovo announces or does? Nothing you guys say is going to change what Lenovo does.

 

I bet most people here who are comparing Apple to Lenovo are brand agnostic and just admire Apple for how they're actually driving innovation in the consumer electronics market. I would be one of those people. I'm a die-hard TrackPoint user, but after briefly flirting with a MBPR, I can't help but feel envious of the beautiful screen and quality of construction of that machine, let alone the iPhone 5 and iPad, which are also everywhere so most people will benchmark against them...

 

And nowadays, when the technology have progressed, and there is DisplayPort 1.2 with daisy-chaining/Thunderbolt/USB3 etc, the docking connector is no longer as critical as it used to be just a few years back for connecting drives, external monitors etc. With laptop battery life longer than 4-5 hours, the replaceable battery is also not as critical feature for many people as it used to be: while 10, 20, 150 hours on battery(-ies) is nice, most just don't spend enough time far from the power outlet.

Add to that the Lenovo's ongoing experiments with the holy cow, aka keyboard layout, and suddenly Apple laptops start to compare a lot better to Thinkpads as a business device. Especially in Europe, where Macbooks are priced in the same ballpark as similarly configured Thinkpads, if not cheaper.

 

Heh...I can only speak for myself and will say that I'm likely the farthest thing on Earth from an Apple fan...with that said, I don't think it's acceptable to just sit and watch Lenovo destroy everything the ThinkPad name once stood for as they are hellbent on doing in my not-so-modest opinion.

While my posts will have no impact on their production strategy, I refuse to keep quiet. And I'll vote with my wallet again and again. That much I can do.

 

Gotta love these threads and the polarization that occurs. Can't we just arm chair quarterback and have some fun? Geez. It was a re-org announcement. It remains to be seen how it will effect the product lines and resulting products.

And regarding ThinkPad loyalty, I was a die hard until a couple of years ago. The wifes iPhone started it followed by my iPad. I want Lenovo to kick Apples butt and really deserve the Number 1 moniker in ALL categories, but they are nowhere near doing that.

 

Any time you make a product as successful as ThinkPads that have changed significantly over the years, there's bound to be a good chunk of people who yearn for the good old days, but it's just a different world. Notebooks are far more ubiquitous that they were back in the day, which I think is a good thing, but for that to happen, prices had to come down. There's probably a lot of people here with a ThinkPad who could not have afforded one if they were still selling for $1,500 a piece and in today's marketplace, few are willing to pay that price. If you don't change, you die. It's not really a right or wrong. I'd be the first person to applaud Lenovo taking on Apple in their marketplace, though I don't think I'd spend that kind of money for a notebook. I might be the only person in America who doesn't like Apple touch pads, but I'll take the stick and silky smooth trackpoint buttons of a ThinkPad every time.

 

I think most people don't know much about computers.
The construction is not quality when it warps under it's weight, and simple bumps. I repair Macbook pro's constantly, and it is rare to find a flawless Macbook pro without dents, flexing, bends, nicks, chips, or scratches. Then I get Thinkpad's and many other brands which come in looking good apart from scratches or scuffs.

The screen is quite frankly great but poorly implemented with functionality resembling a 1440x900 screen. OSX simply is not a operating system that works well with resolutions.
The color reproduction, backlighting, and other fidelity aspects are sub par even by TN standards. (thinkpad's too).

Mac laptops make up less than 12% of the market, if that.That's counting all Mac's.
So no they are not compared because it's what everyone uses. The reason why Macbook Pro's are used for comparison lies in a totally different aspect which is of internet traffic. Apple vs PC is a hot topic, and yields more traffic than Lenovo Vs Dell.

 

Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

You are most decidedly not alone. I can't even use their touch pads. It's moderately embarrassing.

 

Like a starting at $2400 Lenovo Thinkpad? No thanks, it would kill businesses from buying them. Adding them as an option also isn't economically feasible since businesses are Thinkpad T series main customer. Why add an option that your customer base doesn't want?
As far as good quality screens, good luck getting them in large numbers. Computers are trending to become cheaper, not more expensive. That means screens, batteries, keyboards, and other things will be sacrificed.

 

Well, Lenovo seems to get the right path concerning screens and resolutions. On CES, they have announced several new devices, and nearly all with a better resolution than the former models. They even will throw a ThinkPad Edge E531 with FHD on the market (E431 will be updated with an HD+ screen). So, when now even the budget line gets the same resolution screens as the T-Series, I am sure that Lenovo will bring higher resolution screens (and high quality screens) into the T-Series. Even the mobile ThinkVision display has now a 13" HD+ IPS display.

On the other side, it seems that its time to say goodby to the dedicated trackpoint-buttons (replaced by the 5-button-clickpad) and to the physikal docking-connector (replaced by the new OneLink docking). Concerning an update of the keyboard layout, it seems, that Lenovo will return to the FN key separation, which is a good thing. But the 7th row won´t return.

 

Third. That includes in function, and aesthetics. (price is not a concern)

Never been one to wear overly gaudy or "in with the styles". I put functionality first. For aesthetics I prefer something professional looking, that doesn't scream "look at me". Just something that when you look at it, you understand it's a tool. Not just any tool, but a good tool.

 

Lenovo right now is using Price as a weapon to get its name out in the market, so its choice of LCD is basically something that is functional and cheap, unless there is enterprise customers (or other large customer base) whom demand otherwise. Obviously, Lenovo is also trying to get its name out by doing some other product designs that are considered cool or more functional, like the ThinkPad Helix and Yoga 11S.

 

Which is why i opted for the T430s instead of the X1C.

 

That wasn't a starting price for a T-series ThinkPad even in the IBM days...so I really have no idea where you're coming from with that figure. When you have the purchasing power that Lenovo has, you're the one who creates the price of the parts required.

And you're basing this statement on what survey?

Disposable computers are trending to become cheaper, not the serious ones...while the prices have gone down significantly over the past decade, there's no reason not to maintain a flagship model that not everyone can afford...it's called prestige. Lenovo was somewhat on the right track with W7xx series but once again - just like with the X30x series - executed a great concept in a cheap manner and messed up royally...

 

1. It's to reflect what pricing one would take if someone were to follow Apple's wasteful manufacturing.
2. First of what survey are you basing the fact people will be willing to spend $50-$200 more for higher resolutions? The market shows that MOST people want inexpensive, not more expensive and are willing to trade off. That's my survey. On anecdotal evidence:
The fact I work in IT and service several businesses. So far yet to see a single Macbook Pro in a corporate business setting, only a handful amount of times I've seen anything higher than 1600x900 in businesses apart from maybe obvious positions like graphics, head of office, accounting, and a few other areas. Not to mention all my friends and family whom I recommend laptops to, none choose high resolution screens. In fact most people don't know the difference, which is sad. Let a lone LCD technologies. The few people that want higher resolutions tend to be gamers, or professionals whom require it by need not want.
3. Seriously? Have you not noticed what HP and others have been selling the past 2 years?
Metal chassis
Quad core
Discrete graphics
Decent res
Under $800.

Find me a contender for $800, from 2005.

 

I don't recall advising Lenovo to follow Apple's path. Quite frankly, I'm extremely upset at the current Apple influence that has spread to the ThinkPad range.

Even if you were to slap a DC2-quality panel on a W530, it wouldn't have to hit your presumed price point.

2.

The fact that I know hundreds if not thousands of people who had no problem dishing out additional funds while *proper* screens (at the standards applicable at the given time) were available...and that I'm getting far more orders for my IPS-equipped FrankenPads than I can fullfill at the moment...

I don't know how things stand where you are, but where I work (NYC) you'll see plenty of Macs in corporate environments. In many of these places you would have seen nothing but a ThinkPad a decade ago.

The only HPs that I care about are nowhere near that price range...and those are the ones that Lenovo has no answer to...as in top-end EliteBooks...

 

1. I don't believe I had quoted you. Unsure why you are making it about you.

2. For how many units are you getting orders? A few hundred thousand? If so, definitely relay this information to Lenovo, otherwise a couple hundred won't do it.

3. Servicing Dallas, TX... Only Mac's I've seen as Imac's, and some minis. But no Macbook Pros given to employees yet.

4. ? Okay. I don't see how this is relevant to the consumer or general user. I don't like HP myself at any level (yes I've dealt with elitebooks, well built but bad QC and support), as you may tell from my signature but it doesn't mean I will disregard facts.

 

Lenovo themselves stated that 15,000 pieces were minimum that would prompt them to introduce high-quality IPS panels several years ago. They never followed up...search their forum and you'll see what I'm talking about. That's really not that big of a figure for any top-tier manufacturer.

That's exactly why I said that I can't state how things are in your neck of the woods. If you ever end up in NYC, I'll be more than happy to give you a tour of the city and show you what I was referring to...

I believe that we were discussing the business segment...which is what ThinkPads (as well as EliteBooks and Precisions) have as the target market...I wasn't talking about the general consumer market whatsoever...

My point being, it's perfectly fine to have your average lousy-mirror-screen 15.6"@1366x768 laptop at the lower end of the market, for an average Best Buy customer. My concern - and point of reference - are aspects that are lacking in high-end units...

 

So what exactly are you asking for? The option, or the price increase to obtain suitable screens?
So for a laptop starting at $780 say a T430, you expect better screens? And you want them to do it for $50 or?

 

The option of having a proper IPS screen on a top-end model such as W530, for instance.

Not for $50.

Definitely not for $1000

Somewhere in the $200-300 range. And that can be done. Effortlessly on their part.

Mind you, I'm not asking for anything. Once they've changed the keyboard layout I was done with ThinkPads.

 

If your done with thinkpads why not get an Elitebook W with a Dreamcolor 2 and actually get a IPS panel worthy of it's name?

 

I don't need one right now. It's really that simple.

However, if and when I get to the point of needing a quad core CPU and 32GB of RAM that will be my next desktop replacement.

 

I hope they bring Think back to what it was in the T60/T61 days, some of the best ThinkPads were made during those generations.

 

While true, they were making laptops at a time of less competition, especially from devices like tablets and netbooks which help drive the race to the bottom.

 

Because HP Elitebooks suck otherwise and they are too expensive.

 

I'd take my T420 over my T60 or T61 any day of the week.

 

that's because you most likely dont have 14" SVGA+ T61 like mine

 

I got 1600x900 I am fine with that.