And some Lenovo owners think they have problems!

In spite of my and others anger with Lenovo, I have a feeling things could be much worse...just have a look. What nightmares...all over the map.

www.appledefects.com

 

Makes me feel a little bit bitter about my the LG LCD on my T61 having slight light leakage and bad color reproduction and one good viewing angle.

 

Well, I think the main point there is that no-one is perfect.

You could frankly start a similar site as appledefects.com for pretty much any manufacturer. The one difference I've noticed is that Apple owners seem to generally be much less tolerant of defects (compared to some other things, like the bezel issue on the X61t, which it seems like most people just seem to suck up and accept). If Apple shipped a machine with a bezel that game unglued like that, there'd be a huge uproar about it.

I think the bigger issue is, does the company take care of people who have these defects and get them a working unit?

-Zadillo

 

its an apple...go figure

 

Apple crApple

That site is all about defects, however, so it kinda amplifies all the bad stuff by design. And Apple folks are probably more intolerant of defects cuz they pay 20% over the odds for the hardware in the first place.

 

Hrmm, can you point me to where else I can find a machine exactly like the $1999 MBP (all aluminum body, 2.2 GHz CPU, 5.4 pounds, 1" thick, 15.4" LED backlit screen, 128MB 8600M GT, etc.) for $1600? Or for that matter a machine comparable to the $2499 MBP (same deal, except 2.4 GHz CPU, bigger HD and 256MB 8600M GT) for $1999?

You mentioned that Apple owners pay 20% over the odds for the hardware, so I assume you mean there is a machine with those exact specs and dimensions for 20% less ($1699 or $1999, comparitively).

-Zadillo

 

Well no machine is going to be exactly like an Apple just like no machine is exactly like a Lenovo. But as far as internal hardware specs. The T61 w/ nVidia 140M and the T61P will knock off that 20%. Especially if you use some of the discounts that are available probably more like 25%.

 

Sure, understood. But weight and dimensions and things like an LED-backlit screen aren't non-factors. The main point I'm making is that it isn't exactly correct to say that the MBP is inherently 20% overpriced - clearly there are machines one can get that are 20% cheaper, but if you were to make those machines 5.4 pounds, 1" thick and throw in an LED-backlit screen, you'd eat up a lot of that 20% difference.

-Zadillo

 

And that's my point... Macs have "features" that really do little for performance and result in higher prices. I guess we differ on the definition of "hardware".

For example, LED backlight doesn't inherently mean it's a better screen by any stretch of the imagination, just that it can be made thinner and consumes slightly less power. Put an LED backlight on a mediocre panel and it's still a mediocre panel. And an all aluminum case? Not what I would classify as hardware and exactly the sort of reason some Macs are more expensive that they have to be. The guts the the machine really are nothing special (T7500, Nvidia etc.)

SO IMO there's a premium charged for having a thinner, cool-looking computer that performance-wise is nothing special.

Now, us Thinkpad buyers are happy to pay a premium for really ugly-looking machines, but that's another story

 

Yes, there is a premium charged for having a thinner and lighter machine - that's not unique to Apple though. Why do you think an Asus V1S costs more than some of Asus's other laptops?

There's also another important factor about LED-backlit screens; they don't wear out and become dimmer at the same rate as typical CCFL screens. Outside of that, every LED-backlit screen I've seen (the 15.4" panels on the MBP, the 13.3" panels on the Sony SZ, etc.) has been brighter and crisper than comparable CCFL-backlit screens. It isn't simply about less power (although the extra battery life does help).

And for better or worse, at this point in time, LED-backlighting is still a premium feature (which is why it adds an extra $130 to the price of an XPSM1330, for example, and that's just a 13.3" panel).

Anyway, I do consider the overall dimensions and weight of a machine to be important aspects of the computer. I think these are important considerations with a portable machine.

Also, why would you say the rest of the hardware in an MBP is "nothing special"? At this time, the 2.2 and 2.4 GHz CPU's are the top of the line CPU's, and the 8600M GT with GDDR3 memory is also the top of the line GPU in 15.4" machines.

Again, the only thing I disagree with here is this idea that Macs are 20% more expensive for nothing. Whether the premium aspects of them are worth it is another question. But it's not like Apple is selling something that other people sell the exact same thing for 20% less.

-Zadillo

 

good job zadillo ,u just stole words outta my mouth

 

V1S? That's not available yet is it? I'm getting sick of waiting for my T61... I'd seriously consider bailing if the V1S was available to be shipped right now.

 

No, available for preorder from some retailers (and I think some others will have it soon; there's a group buy thread for the V1S where it was mentioned that MilestonePC will be offering some special deal).

EDIT: Err, nm, the MilestonePC thing is for the V2S and F8SV.

-Zadillo

 

In my opinion: I could have a better machine. The T61p with the Quadro card(570M w/ a 7700 3Dmark) and something really premium, the WUXGA screen, for less. That is after discounts which Lenovo does offer unlike CrApple.

Oh! but who would know about this killer T61p. Not the average person. The average person has an iPOD or is dreaming to buy one. Apple marketing is REALLY premium. (marketing techniques to catch stupid people hungover on fashion for the purpose of their appeasement)

The iPHONE might be an exception. The audio hardware in these apple products is cheap.

The education departments of universities nationwide endorse CrApple products..

MACS may be UNIQUE. They are not ordinary machines.

That is if you are a fashion victim like the major populous.

As for people that want real quality, they had researched through many similar forums such as ours and found what really is better in terms of quality.

I would buy that 7-8 pound DELL 1520 over a MAC any day. And if I have 400 dollars more to spend, i would of bought a T series from Lenovo.

The reputation of the T series is unrivaled. PERIOD
-do not underestimate what can be behind the scenes in the market. A real premium product. A T61p !

 

I think you've made your point - although just as a comment, I'd be more compelled to have a serious discussion with you if you could avoid resorting to the use of the term "crApple" - it just makes it hard to take the rest of what you say seriously.

Anyway, the rest of this isn't really worth getting into (i.e. "people only buy Apple products because of marketing, etc').

-Zadillo

 

If we check other forums here like Compall,Asus and Dell they have the same shipping problems so I don't know why we just blame Lenovo , i am one of those people that still waiting for my T61p,
razzasizer good points

 

Sometimes I go to extremes in my opinions to make my point. However, I don't present a universal view of Apple whoes headquarters are located 12 minutes away from my house. They have some obvious plus points which other companies don't have. It all comes down to you as the consumer.
Pardon my insolent attitude. Apple and IBM are great companies. They are Pioneers of most of the tech we deal with on day to day basis.

I only like to critique Apple and similar companies to amuse myself. So, their you have it.
thumbs up to you Zadillo

 

Gotcha. Sorry to take this so seriously, it's just one of those things that tends to get me riled up...

Have a good night, and thumbs up to you too.

-Zadillo

 

Most of the "overpriced" arguments come from the Macbook line, small screen, overweight and other flaws make it a poor machine for the price.

But once you get in the high end territory then its hard to say anything is overpriced... since well everything is different.

 

Apple tries to sell a Madison Avenue or Rodeo Drive lifestyle with their products. How can I be cool? How can I be fashion conscious? How do I act like a big-shot in Hollywood? How can I pretend to be writing the next big screenplay at a coffee shop? How can I impress my drunk friends? How can I show off to the kids at school that all have iPods? I know, I will buy Apple products.

The Thinkpad tries to sell us the corporate workhorse machine. It is a no-nonsense product that is professional, increases productivity by 1000 percent, and is built to withstand a 8.0 earthquake. How do I get that raise? How do I complete that project that needs to get done next week? How do I blend in with my coworkers? How will I look discrete and professional at a meeting? How do I climb that corporate ladder? I know, I will buy a Thinkpad.

These are two different marketing strategies from two different companies. One tries to sell a chic and metro sexual lifestyle where as the other tries to be as traditional and unassuming as ever.

If both companies juxtaposed their marketing strategy, they would have different sale results. That kid at school with that boring Thinkpad would not be cool to she and her friends. That fashion designer would be complaining about how unsexy it is. That aluminum or glossy plastic shell would look out of place in an environment that is unchanging.

My point is that a products' perceived quality or style is all from marketing. You and everybody else has already been brainwashed.

As a postscript, I will be looking forward to receiving my T61!

 

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

I've never understood what the basis for comparison was for that though....... Sony's C series was the closest thing I've seen to a competing laptop (13.3" consumer-priced machine), and it had a similar price range (in the $1099-1499 range depending on configuration). And I don't think it's really overweight compared to some of the almost 6 pound 14" notebooks on the market like the dv2000 series.

 

I had 3 Macbook Pro's with terrible screens last month before I gave up and ordered a T61. I also realized $2500 was way too much money to spend on technology that would be obsolete in a year.

 

I believe a PC spec'd exactly the same a MBP has a price of about equal, if not more.

However, Mac products are not customizable. So the average user will be buying a computer with a high end video card, 2 gigs of ram, a 120 gb hard drive, and unnecessarily fast CPU.

This is all stuff that is completely useless to the average user. I know many people who do nothing but surf the net and chat who buy $2400 Macbook Pros.

Are Macs a waste of money? For most people.

 

I think that's still the exception, rather than the rule though. Plenty of people who are buying Macs just to chat and surf aren't buying $2000/2500 MBP's; they're more likely to buy a MacBook.

Yes, the MBP is only available with a 2.2 or 2.4GHz CPU and an 8600M GT.

I'll definitely admit that there are people who end up paying more for components they wouldn't otherwise want/need, and the MBP isn't as configurable, as say, a Dell Inspiron 1520.

But the fact that some people pay extra for the MBP for things they don't need doesn't mean that the components it has AREN'T a waste of money for the people who actually do need their capabilities (someone who uses Final Cut, Motion, etc. doesn't find the GPU or CPU's to be wastes of money) - and the MBP is tailored to them; the fact that some people buy these machines without needing all their capabilities is a bit besides the point.

-Zadillo

 

I definitely think the issue is with lack of customization. In order to get a burner from Apple you need to have more HDD and RAM at a manufacturer's 2x prices for those things. If you just want more HDD space or more Ram, you get a burner and the other part you don't want.

HP kinda sucks these days with configs as well. you either get 1GB ram in 2 sticks or 2gb in 2 sticks, no option at all for 1x1GB

 

Yeah, certainly a fair point. I think that's the biggest sticking point most people have, with two base MBP configurations, without any options to customize the CPU or GPU VRAM.

But frankly, there are a number of notebooks on the market with limited configuration options like that.

 

I agree that the casual user would be fine with a Macbook, but there are many people who don't want to 'settle' for the 'next best' technology. Someone who doesn't know much about computers may not realize that a Macbook is fine, and that a MBP with the latest CPUs really isn't necessary. This is where many students end up spending more than what is necessary. Way more.

 

Very true. Although it's probably never too early to learn a valuable lesson about buying just what you need.

Of course, for many students, a $399 Acer laptop is probably all they'd really need.

-Zadillo

 

Ain't it great? And that's what keep the US economy chuggin along. Consumers getting suckered into buying stuff they don't need by flashy marketing and their competitive nature.

God bless the land of the free (plus taxes and tip)

 

I'm not an apple fan, but "obsolete in one year"... I don't think so. While technology will advance some over the next year it will hardly advance to the point that it would warrant today's MBP or T61P owner to upgrade. I'd suspect that today's MBP or T61P would serve most people very well for the next 2-4 years... at least.

"Settle"? Again I'm not a Mac fan, but this works with any laptop brand. There are many who will order a T61P because it is "the best" even though an R61 would serve them just as well. Or as Zadillo said, an Acer might serve them well. However, some people just have to get "the best" and don't want to take the time to do a little homework or ask someone who knows, what exactly they really need. It's there own fault really.

 

As for my case, what really attracted me to the T61p was the WUXGA screen. I can't stand a WXGA. An SXGA+ isn't bad.
I usually copy and past articles off the net into word only to shrink it down to 8pt font Aral.
I can't get a better deal on an WUXGA 15.4' screen.

So basically, sometimes there are some specs that appeal to certain users.

T series notebooks are reliable, and have quality options. That is what I want, a reliable premium product that will last me another 5 years or more.

 

Well, big difference here is that "crApple" actually is shipping notebooks, while who the hell knows when the "superior" T61p will ship if I went and bought it online today.

I am actually looking for something like MBP, T61p, or even V1s... and MBP is the only one I can actually get within next 30 days most likely.

 

high resolution LCD FTW!