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    Am I overreacting?

    Discussion in 'Lenovo' started by rubenhan, Aug 15, 2011.

  1. rubenhan

    rubenhan Notebook Consultant

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    Hi, guys,

    I'm considering to purchase either X220 or W520 for my next computer; however, as I do more research and research reading thinkpad forums, I couldn't throw away the feeling and impression that the current thinkpad lines have some quality issues. Although I read the reviews for both products in various sites including this site, which acclaims both products for their high quality, when I read so many people complaining about throttling issue, fan noise issue, and other incompatibility issues, it makes me really hesitant to buy the product.

    I am fully aware that the opinion floating around the internet is heavily skewed towards the complainers, so I know I have to consider the factor.

    So what is your general opinion at this point? I rather spend the same amount of money on Dell M4600 and HP 8560w since the cost is about the same.

    Please let me know of your opinion and advice.

    Thank you.
     
  2. Bronsky

    Bronsky Wait and Hope.

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    As between the Precision, Thinkpad or Elitebook workstations, I would probably go with the HP if you can get a comparable deal. I have
    used previous models of each and liked the HP the most. To be sure, all three are really durable and well built computers. If you are reading a lot of complaining on the sites, it is largely because you are dealing with knowledgeable users who are very fussy about their computers. There are only minor differences between the models that most users would not even recognize them if they were not pointed out to them. My office currently has a Precision 4600 and, although I may prefer the Elitebook workstation, the Precision is a pleasure to work on.
     
  3. cobrien

    cobrien Notebook Consultant

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    I think as usual the complainers are much much louder than those who are happy.

    I got the w520 after comparing it to the M4600 because a similar setup was much cheaper.

    I have only owned my W520 for a few days but the only one of your mentioned issues I have seen is battery throttling, which really extends battery life but can be easily circumvented using throttle stop. I found using supplied software even under "high performance" my CPU was throttled to about 1500mhz when loaded with a prime stress test. Even with this throttling I was able to easily load and play SC2 without a noticeable performance decline. I have installed throttle stop and tested that it works so I can have full CPU speed while on battery life but I haven't actually found it necessary so far.

    Fan noise under normal conditions is audible but non intrusive, sitting on my desk its about as loud as my desktop PC processor fan running under my desk and in a case. There is a "turbo fan" mode that cranks it to its max and is quite loud, but in this mode it is able to keep the cpu at 75c under full load. Again its not really necessary under normal usage, but its nice that it is available for extreme conditions.

    Quality feels high to me. The only complaint I would have is the flexibility of the screen which seems about average for a laptop, but doesn't seem up to par with the rigidity of the rest of the system. Speakers have decent volume and are clear and usable to hear things, but don't have a nice full range sound for music (they lack low frequency response). The thinklight as a replacement is not as cool looking as a backlit keyboard, but it works well and is kinda cool in its own right.

    I don't think I have had mine long enough to comment on any compatibility issues, although I haven't noticed anything thus far.
     
  4. ckx

    ckx Notebook Evangelist

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    Very true.

    This is one of the main reasons why you see many more complaints about high-end products than about low-end ones. Here is an example:

    Search dell IN1930 backlight bleed on Google returns ~2,000 results, most of which are irrelevant to IN1930.

    Search dell U2410 backlight bleed on Google returns ~11,500 results, many of which are indeed complaints about U2410.

    So what's the deal here? Does Dell use worse LCD panels and have less quality control on their premium UltraSharp monitors than on their entry-level consumer monitors? Of course not. U2410 is a much better monitor than IN1930.

    However, as Bronsky said, people who buy premium products are very picky about what they get. They scrutinize every aspect of the product carefully and expect everything to be just perfect. People who buy low-end products write 5-star reviews if they turn it on and it works. So sometimes better products do come out looking worse if you go by comments on online forums.

    So what should you do? I think you should probably give up on W520 and X220. From the way you described your dilemma, online forums had (unfortunately) cast enough doubt in your mind about these two models that you will never feel truly happy about them, even if you do receive perfect, problem-free units. Psychology works in funny (and terrible) ways.

    Go with Dell or HP, but do not ever think about searching for known issues of whatever computer you ended up buying. You will always find problems if you look hard enough, and then you will hate your computer for no good reason at all.
     
  5. ThinkRob

    ThinkRob Notebook Deity

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    I've owned or used nearly every model of ThinkPad made from about 1999 onwards (plus a few of the very early models).

    I don't think that the X220 and W520 "quality problems" any more so than any previous models (and far less so than, say, the T40-series.)

    Every mass-produced product line has defects. Every single one. The X220 and W520 are no exception. That said, their design and build are (from what I've seen) absolutely worthy of the ThinkPad name. The X220 looks to be one of my favorite X series designs. I'm not a fan of the T520/W520's size, but I can't fault it on the basis of build quality or design. IMHO it's a net improvement over the T500/W500 in terms of design.
     
  6. cobrien

    cobrien Notebook Consultant

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    This man is correct, the only reason I mention (or even noticed) the bit of flex in my W520 screen is because I bought a high end product and was expecting something amazing so the first thing I did when I got it out of the box was scrutinized every aspect of it looking for flaws.

    Unfortunately unless you can be completely objective this is also probably true.
     
  7. ZaZ

    ZaZ Super Model Super Moderator

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    While forums like this do a lot of good, this is one of the big problems with them. Seeing all this negativity is hard to wade through even for someone who's well versed in the particular subject. All I can tell you is my X220 is as good as any ThinkPad I've used. I would expect the same of the W520, though I've not seen it.
     
  8. lead_org

    lead_org Purveyor of Truth

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    HP Elitebooks 17 inch laptops are great, same can't be said for their smaller variants.

    Dell Precision and W520 is the best alternatives for power, while X220 is probably one of the better windows OS operated ultraportable laptops for that price range.

    But these laptops falls in the opposite end of the usage spectrum. One is a serious workstation machine while other is a ultraportable.
     
  9. Jarhead

    Jarhead 恋の♡アカサタナ

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    I've read plenty of complaints about the W520 (see W520 Owners' Forum), and even though it has its faults (throttling, which is mostly fixed with the 1.26 BIOS; Intel 510 warm boot, which still isn't fixed), I still bought one. Am I happy about it, even with processor issues? Yes. Also, the only weak spot in build quality I could find was on the display bezel, between the hinges (a bit of flex), but it's hardly surprising since all laptops are weak there; it's not too big of a concern either since realistically there will be no pressure on that spot in practice.

    TL;DR: As others said above, happy users don't talk a lot, while flaws are highlighted often in high-end equipment.

    Dell and HP make great business laptops, just like Lenovo does with the Thinkpad line. However, as lead_org said, you are comparing two entirely different types of laptops, the X220 and the W520. Figure out which laptops features you need the most (mobility vs workstation power), then look at laptops in that size range.
     
  10. rubenhan

    rubenhan Notebook Consultant

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    Haha

    It clearly looks like I'm overreacting.

    Well, see. I get really picky BEFORE I buy any kind of product because I pretty much stick with the product until it practically disintegrate. So I become very careful when I buy and pretty much compare everything. But trust me, once I buy a product, I usually don't care much of all those "defects." I live on and try to improvise and adapt.

    The reason why I was deciding between X220 and W520 is because for me they seem to be the most quality products from the Lenovo. I really don't care about the size, form factor, and weight. I simply want a quality product.

    Anyways, with your opinions, I'll definitely positively think about the Thinkpad lines. I'll probably go with W520 after doing some heavy comparison with the Dell Precision lines and HP Elitebooks.

    Again, thank you for your inputs.
     
  11. Jarhead

    Jarhead 恋の♡アカサタナ

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    I was very picky about buying a laptop as expensive as a W520 myself. I looked at the offerings from HP and Dell and I felt that the Lenovo would be the best for me (mainly due to the battery life of the W520 being nearly 8 hours with internet surfing on low power levels).
     
  12. rubenhan

    rubenhan Notebook Consultant

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    Yeah for me, W520's battery life is very attractive although atm I don't need such long battery life. I guess I like the efficiency part of it.
     
  13. Thaenatos

    Thaenatos Zero Cool

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    Forums are great for buffing up personal opinions and making them look sound and feel like the end all be all truth. Honestly the only reason I would consider getting a precision over a w520 if I had the money to buy now is the option for an ATI card. The only reason I wouldnt get the HP is Im not a fan of the keyboard. But all 3 are equally worthy in all categories.

    As for build quality and ruggedness all three are on the same level.
     
  14. lead_org

    lead_org Purveyor of Truth

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    Even if all these alternative business laptops are the same... there is still something that the other laptops don't have... which is a passionate user community whom loves to share their thoughts and ideas with other (also help out where we can on various issues you might have).

    Owning a Thinkpad is more than just about having the laptop, you become part of the Thinkpad fraternity.
     
  15. John Ratsey

    John Ratsey Moderately inquisitive Super Moderator

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    I don't think any of the main notebook brands produce consistently perfect products. There are, however, three types of problem: (a) design; (b) components and (c) assembly. Design problems result in consistent annoyances (although some people like features that I think are annoying such as USB ports on the back). Design can also result in robust or flimsy products depending on the objectives. Component inconsistency results in variable user experience. Displays, perhaps, are the biggest example of variability with notebook manufacturers often using more than one source and there being some inconsistency in products even from one source. That leaves assembly as the other cause of inconsistency which should be manageable by decent quality control. However, sometimes the design doesn't have ease of assembly in mind but consistent assembly problems usually get rectified within the first few months of production.

    As already noted, forums tend to give too much coverage to the problems because the silent majority of contented users have no need to come here and post. It it therefore up to the browser to make a judgement upon whether reported problems are frequent or isolated and whether they get fixed.

    Also, if you can't decide between the X220 and the W520 then the answer is you should look at the T420 or T420s. I bought the latter as a compromise between size / weight, screen real estate and adequate performance.

    John
     
  16. Jarhead

    Jarhead 恋の♡アカサタナ

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    @OP: The reason I bought my W520, besides the battery life, was due to my university's policy on computers. Originally, I was thinking about buying a netbook or a low-power 13" (so makebe something like a X120e or X220i) and to build a powerful desktop system. However, my college requires all students to have a laptop (can't just have a desktop, and netbooks/iPads aren't considered laptops). Instead of managing two computers (smaller, more portable netbook/powerful laptop), I just went ahead and bought a workstation-class laptop since the last thing I wanted was a flashy laptop like an Alienware (AW design is either something you love or hate).

    The T420(s) is a great laptop as well, though IIRC the T420 has better battery life and can accept typical 9.5mm HDDs/SSDs (whereas T420s only accepts 7mm drives). Just like with the X220/W520, you'll find a lot of complaining about the T420(s) on here, mainly about how the screen looks a little grainy. Again, you have to look really hard for that tiny flaw; it's something you won't notice often unless you look for it.
     
  17. kto

    kto Notebook Consultant

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    I think the quality of laptops has gone down over the last few years. That is to be expected as laptops have become much cheaper and development cycles have shortened. On top of that features are increasing and people are using and abusing their laptops in ways (e.g. gaming) they were never used for before.

    I would strongly suspect that another reason you see so many complaints about Lenovo products is because so many people own them. With the X220 and the W520, Lenovo has done a good job of making attractive (specifications wise) products and keeping prices low (in comparison to HP and Dell). I would suspect that Thinkpad pro-users (the most fussy of all users!) are overrepresented on this and other forums in comparison to HP and Dell business laptop owners.

    I think the W520 is a good fit. I know "future-proofing" is a mostly useless idea with computers, but with the W520 it'll be easier to upgrade things like RAM and drives to keep up with the times. The quad-core CPU and discrete GPU will ensure the laptop will last a little longer than X220. Also, the W520 will probably be able to take more physical stress than the X220.
     
  18. ThinkRob

    ThinkRob Notebook Deity

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    There's something else to consider, which is applicable to *all* business-class laptops (not just ThinkPads):

    We're not the primary customer.

    Most ThinkPads, Dell Latitude E series machines, etc. are purchased by huge corporations and governments for large-scale roll-outs. Most of the users who use these machines care very, very little about any of the geeky nitpicks that we post about here. Hell, I'd be willing to bet a pint or two that most of the end users of fleet machines don't even know that this forum exists. For them, their laptop's performance is a binary value: it works, or it's broken -- and if it's broken, they go down to the IT office and get a new one. Posting on a forum never occurs anywhere in that process. :D
     
  19. lead_org

    lead_org Purveyor of Truth

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    at this moment in time, you probably wouldn't want to purchase any HP PC products.
     
  20. Jarhead

    Jarhead 恋の♡アカサタナ

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    Are you talking about the whole HP line, or just the consumer laptops?
     
  21. MidnightSun

    MidnightSun Emodicon

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    I think he's referring to rumors that HP is exiting the PC business, in which case he means all HP computers.
     
  22. PatchySan

    PatchySan Om Noms Kit Kat

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    There is a possibility that it could be the whole lot, though they can spin the PC division off as an independent entity or to another company to carry on the existing lines similar to IBM and Lenovo ( source).

    I agree as I found owning ThinkPads to be a positive experience overall. I think most users who have such experience are likely to buy the brand again and i'm on my 6th one which says it all really, I still have 3 with me (OK one is dismantled but I can easily put it back together and get it working if I want to). I have used the others such as HP, Dell, Toshiba and Acer but I always find myself come back to IBM-Lenovo in the end.
     
  23. NecessaryEvil

    NecessaryEvil Notebook Evangelist

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    Even if you wanted to buy an HP, there's a chance that you couldn't get what you wanted anyway due to all the delays. If you're wanting a custom unit, buy now and get it in October if you're lucky. Maybe it's for the best that HP leave the PC market, as they've been terrible at meeting their expected deadlines the past couple generations. I sat around for months after my faulty W510 last year waiting for the 8740W w/ DC2, and finally gave up on waiting for release twice.



    I will say that if I wanted an ultraportable, the X220 is where I'd go, with the IPS screen.

    On the workstation end, the W520 just seems to lag behind others. Plastic construction compared to metals. No number pad (I love the keyboard, but it's a feature that some of us use frequently). I chose the EliteBook 8560W for the DreamColor IPS display. Their docking station is better, the build quality is better (comparing against the W510 I used to have), but as said, the Thinkpad community is better than any other business line's community.

    I'm without a Thinkpad to my name for only the 2nd time since 2003...and I'd happily trade my 8440W for an X220. I've been unhappy with their redesigned 15" models. I loved my W500, but the W510 seemed like a step back in many ways (and no, I'm not going to blame it on the switch to 16:9, the W510 95% gamut display was way better than the 16:10 LG WSXGA+ I had in my W500 or WUGXA in my T61P). Thinkpads are still towards the top on their 14" models, but aren't exactly possessing of any killer features for me to differentiate base T series against Latitudes. The X series is the only line that I'd pick over the competition without hesitation.
     
  24. rubenhan

    rubenhan Notebook Consultant

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    Wow!
    Really guys, thank you so much for all your inputs.

    I can clearly see that NBR members really care about each other.

    Anyways, for my decision, I bought a Dell (I hear GASPS). I couldn't resist the e6520 deal from the Dell Business Outlet with their coupon. Simply too good to resist. I got
    i7
    4gb
    FHD
    Intel 3000 (I know I know. But this is good for eGPU and I purposely chose it)
    for a cool $670.

    I know e6520 is a "worse" class than W520, M4600, or 8560w, and its FHD is definitely one notch below others, but I heard the laptop and the display are pretty darn good for a general use.

    Also Khenglish's success in his eGPU setup was definitely an encouraging news.

    One reason that I didn't buy either X220 and W520 is how Lenovo declined to update its BIOS to fix the TOLUD issue. For me, that was a pretty disappointing move, not because they are not supporting a very niche group (eGPU) but rather they are not standing upto their promise as many Thinkpad forum members have eloquently described in the above mentioned link.

    I decided against M4600 and 8560w because I realized they are simply overkill for my use. I really don't need a superpowerful GPU ON my laptop since I rarely play game when I'm on the move. I realized I simply need a solidly built laptop that doesn't have an overkill GPU that causes battery drain and heat. The new Sony Z was another candidate, but I didn't care for the old Z that my sister bought and the customer service that Servicenet provided us.

    Wow, I noticed I came up with too elaborate reason just for buying A new laptop. Hopefully, this is acceptable since this is NBR.

    Anyways, I sincerely appreciate every opinion that every single one of you took time to dispense to me. I hope all the best for you, and to all the Thinkpad fans, please don't hate me for choosing Dell over Thinkpad.
     
  25. lead_org

    lead_org Purveyor of Truth

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    Interesting machine choice, you don't really have to be sorry for what you buy.