New Momentus XT SSD?

Does anyone have ideas on when a new Seagate Hybrid SSD will come out? I would think it'd be soon, as the first-gen models were released a year ago...anyways, I'm considering it as an upgrade for my M11x, but I'm not sure if I should hold out for a new generation.

 

As far as I know there has not even be a rumor about an update. Might take a longer time.

 

That seems odd as it's been such a long time since the last update...why the long wait? It could definitely use a refresh.

 

could be because the present xt is still selling v well.

 

@trvelbug Do you think there'll be a new one out in the next few months or will Seagate probably wait until December/January?

 

im actually waiting for one myself. was also hoping for a refresh this month or next.
but theres just no news around the net. hopefully though they come up with something substantial like 16gb nand.

 

That would be awesome. The only reason I'm holding out is because I'd like more space in the SSD part of the drive (16gb would be awesome).
EDIT: Well, actually, more SSD space AND having the rest of the drive be 10k rpm would be INSANE, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

 

Are you sure you need a larger cache? Most people over estimate their needs.

A larger cache won't bring significant improvements for the average user.

 

yes im sure. i owned a momentus xt and the 4gb nand was definitiely not enough for my needs. i use chrome, powerdvd, excel, word, powerpoint, trucrypt, paint, powerdirector, wmp, media monkey, a couple of games and other programs on a less regular basis.
from what ive seen in anands ssd caching test 20-30gb would be ideal for me but i think i can live with 16gb.

 

I expect 4GB is enough for the programs you mentioned. As you know the whole program doesn't have to be cached to open quickly. You might need a bit more for the games.

 

Honestly, I didn't purchase the Seagate Momentus XT Hybrid, when I had to upgrade to HD to something with a bit more space well because it's really the first of its' kind. I've been waiting on a really strong second generation model of it's kind where it will iron out the problems plagued by the first as well as involving something a bit larger than 4GB, while it's usable, I was hoping perhaps 8GB/16GB Cache, something that would allow the HDD to breathe, well at the very least so that I can work on multiple programs at once. Kind of hard to play around in Photoshop and Illustrator, while you are working on the same thing in Vue Infinite and Lightwave.

What really nudged me away from the product was simply that it's the first of it's kind really, never before has there been a hybrid hard disk/solid-state drive. In addition, generally, you would expect companies to have a better release with a much stronger second generation model, addressing the major faults of their first generation. Just compare the iPad 2 to what the iPad really was and you'll see a phenomenal difference between both products, as the iPad was actually the first of it's kind.

 

i dont think so. if i launch pdirector on its own a few times i see the benefit of the cache. however if i use ppro or paint or muvee reveal and i go back to pdirector, it takes a while to launch. it has obviously been flushed from the cache.
im not sure how the caching algorithm of the xt works; whether it only caches programs only or programs and data; but after an hd video editing session in any of my nle's it seems like the other programs are flushed out of the cache.
i have since sold my xt with my older sager as i really didnt see any benefits aside from quicker bootups- when i restarted my laptop frequently.

 

Meh. 4GB is a lot. I'd say the actually HDD needs improvements/ updates. Maaaaaaaaaybe 8GB cache, but honestly 4GB is a lot more than you'd think.

 

yeah for most users it is.

but for hd video and audio editing, multi layer and batch photo editing, gaming, vm's and officework with large databases the cache does not seem like enough, at least with regards to my workflow.

 

@Phil So if I have an 8GB game it doesn't have to take up 8GB of the cache to open quickly? Then about how much would it take?

 

I'm almost positive it doesn't work like that, while it may take up 8GB of space on the hard drive itself, I don't think you cache all of it, because if that were the case, then Windows wouldn't be booting up any faster each time you restarted your computer, as it requires up to a bare minimum of 16GB to 20GB of space. I believe only certain aspects of the program are cached such as the launching sequence and etc, although I can be wrong as I'm not really familar with the HDD Hybrid.

 

Don't know for sure but <1GB would be enough to have it launch quickly.

To speed up each level load time more would be needed.

 

8gb read cache would probably be nice, especially if they could make it multiple channels.

 

@FlipBack What would having multiple channels accomplish? Would more programs be able to open without some getting "dropped" from the cache?

 

No, that is what having more cache would accomplish. Multiple channels would make cache read speeds closer to those of an SSD, which use multiple channels accessed in parallel. If they used 2 channels, the cache bandwidth would be twice as much, etc. It would just make things load even faster.

 

Is that essentially the same concept with dual channel and tri-channel memory (RAM) or is that just the number of slots a memory can hold? I always wondered what Dual/Tri Channel meant for memory

 

Yeah, same concept. Basically the same concept as RAID 0 also.

 

just got one of these drives (320gb) for my revo3700 microPC
very good upgrade and cheap too compared to a SSD

 

Seagate can make a Momentus XT with 8GB SSD SATA3 already.

What's taking them so long?

 

The fact is they don't need to, so why spend more money.

 

But they should want to, since they not only have to adapt to the new, changing market, but they can also rake in additional revenue and profit by putting out new and exciting products.

Mr. Mysterious

 

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing 8GB/16GB/24GB Caches coupled with existing Seagate's Momentus HDD's. Although, they need to do something about enhancing their drive sizes, as much as 500GB/750GB are great, 750GB can't the highest size tier possible. I would love to see something along the lines of a 1TB/7200RPM HDD at least for the notebook 2.5" form factor. But perhaps what's keeping Seagate is the fact that they are probably trying to create something like a readable/writeable cache which would be inherently difficult.

 

You won't see that much cache in a drive for a while since they use SLC which is very expensive. Just check the price of Intel's 311 (desktop mSATA SSD).

 

they may be holding back and testing to see how consumers react to ssd caching. that to me could be a killer blow to hybrid hdd's.

 

If only that card would work in my laptop, you have no idea how happy I would be...

I don't know, the hybrid drive works faster than their mechanical counterparts, compare boot times/app launch times against the fastest 7200RPM HDD, the WD Scorpio Black. Although, they definitely need areas to improve on but it's solid working product, those that didn't get the faulty drives. But I would expect Seagate to launch a much stronger second generation of these drives perhaps offering it with an option of having 4GB or 8GB Cache.

 

I agree. The question is: When???

Mr. Mysterious

 

What I'm curious about is why other HDD makers haven't put out competing offerings yet, despite how the Momentus XT is now well over a year old and has shown that there is clearly a market for hybrid drives.

Has Seagate produced a world-class drive controller that's years ahead of anything the competition can come up with, capturing the position which Intel had in the SSD market for over 2 years following the launch of the original X25-M? Or does Seagate own a bunch of important patents covering hybrid drive technology, making it impossible for competitors to make something similar? Or is it something else altogether?

If WD were to offer a hybrid drive, we might actually see a refresh of the Momentus XT sooner rather than later...

 

do you even know what ssd caching is :
AnandTech - Z68 SSD Caching with Corsair's F40 SandForce SSD

You basically get an ssd and an hdd. The chipset uses the ssd as a cache for the hdd, this is handled by irst.
It is artificially disbaled via software on most sb motherboards but is available on the z68 and the pm67 chipsets. It wil be standard for all ivybridge chipsets.
At present prices you can get a 64gb ssd and 500gb hdd for 150 usd and basically have a 500gb hdd woyh 64gb cache.
Also it could be just a matter of time till someone hacks the irst to support all sb chipsets for this.
Not if thats not a concern for seagate and the momentus team, i dont what is.

 

I won't lie, I'm a bit hazy about the details surrounding the SSDs but my main point was that money is the primary issue. Most people don't have the option for dual drives which would be ideal so they can purchase a smaller sized SSD (as you mentioned) and use it in conjunction with a larger-sized 7200RPM WD/Seagate HDD. But Seagate's Hybrid Drive is an answer for those that aren't willing to spend around $1000 for a large-sized (512GB) SSD, as long as Seagate makes enhancements to what they have and fix the numerous issues involving their product, they should be fine.

A really bold move, one that I think would definitely promote product sales is if they released a 750GB Hybrid Drive w/perhaps giving users like us an option for the cache between 4GB/8GB. I kind of expect them to go up in at least one avenue (whether they go up in drive-size or cache-size is anyone's guess). Honestly, their second generation product will look weak if they just fix errors and release the same drive (500GB/4GB Cache Hybrid). At the moment you can get the Seagate Momentus XT for right around $90-$105, depending on where you get it, that price is ideal for them to make money.

 

Every laptop with a dvd or bd has an option for a 2nd hdd/ssd via optical bay caddy fyi

 

Would this be a good place to talk about optimizing the Momentus XT performance for owners, or would this just be hijacking the thread?

 

Yes better use the normal Momentus XT thread.

 

According to ????USB3.0?Z77/Z75/H77/Q77/Q75/B75??? - ???? Market Trends - XFastest - ?? ???????
not all panther point chipsets will support the Intel Smart Response Technology(SSD caching).
As of today only the Z68 chipset supports SSD caching. The PM67 does not!

I also don't believe that one can hack IRST to support it with current chipsets as a special Intel Raid Rom and support in the BIOS is necessary for SSD caching!

Following is an excerpt from

Intel® Rapid Storage Technology 10.5.0.1027 Production Version Release Notes

6. To enable the Intel® Smart Response Technology feature, the RST 10.5.0.1034 OROM, the RST 10.5.0.1026 driver, the RST 10.5.0.1027 user interface and the Cougar Point Z68 SKU are required.

 

Phil, can you post a link for future readers of where that thread is at? Thanks, search is screwed.

 

True search on NBR doesn't always work well, Google works excellent though. In case you didn't know, adding the search phrase site:notebookreview.com limits results to NBR only.

 

well thats not what anandtech says, according to them it is just disabled by software.
id believe anandtech more than some obscure chinese website.

 

Intel® Rapid Storage Technology 10.5.0.1027 Production Version Release Notes are officially from Intel.

Regarding SSD caching and Panther Point chipsets take a look at Anandtech website

AnandTech - Intel?s Roadmap: Ivy Bridge, Panther Point, and SSDs

as you're a Anandtech believer.

 

tldr, but im sure the statement is there. id just rather believe that than the chinese article you posted back then.

nonetheless, im still hoping it can still be done in the present chipsets and imho it is the major consideration for hybrid drive manufacturers.

 

Buuump!
I'm getting quite impatient with Seagate...grr....RELEASE AN UPDATE!
Seriously, it's been 13 months since the first generation. That's like five years in tech terms.
I'm pondering whether I should order the current XT for $90 (a $15 sale off the normal price) from Newegg or wait until the refresh (hopefully) occurs. I'm about to boot my new laptop in a week or two but I don't want to buy an XT only to have it refreshed a week later and then either have to live with the fact that I would already have an outdated, inferior product mad or buy the new model and then transfer my data. Thoughts anyone? Also, does Newegg have a policy where I could return the HD if I haven't opened it yet?

 

there is no competition for the XT, so it makes business sense to just milk the market. Only the 750gb western digital scorpio black beats it in terms of speed, but the XT still has better boot times.

 

That doesn't mean it can't be improved, though. I'm sure the XT would see a spike in sales with the publicity that comes with announcing a new, improved version of a great, unique HD.

 

the XT as far as i know is not available through new pc's, and that is their biggest market by far. Enthusiasts who buy replacement/upgrade drives will have already researched the XT and therefore additional publicity would be moot.

 

As far as I know the WD is only faster in a few areas. The XT has better boot times, application load times, copy times, lower noise levels and lower power consumption.

Agreed. Maybe the problem is that the Seagate 750GB isn't a very good performer, like the Seagate 7200.4 500GB wasn't a very good performer.

I'm hoping this is causing the delay, Seagate is still optimizing the 750GB to become an XT.

 

are you referring to the 750gb one? it seems to trump it in most benchmarks apart from the boot times

 

Yes I'm referring to the 750GB.

Boot times and application load times are helped by cache, file copy times are also faster (Techreport.com).