Forget Intel Skylake, Kaby Lake on the Way

Intel confirms tick-tock shattering Kaby Lake processor as Moore’s Law falters

2015 - 14nm Skylake
2016 - 14nm Kaby Lake
2H 2017 - 10nm Cannonlake

 

Forget Intel Kaby Lake, Ice Lake on the way.

 

Forget Skylake or Kaby Lake, Haswell already here and I am using it right now.

 

T2050, great attitude, I second that!*

* - unless they do introduce quad-core i7/xeon convertible with dual-digitizer somewhere along the way. =P

 

@Jayayess1190 hey kiddo .. you are sooo soo boring with your forgets ...

 

Simona, we love to be informed about what is coming - it keeps changing, as Intel keeps modifying their roadmap(s).

Jayayess1190, please keep it going

 

no point outrun developments ..
enjoy and be happy what u got now..

 

The thread titles are completely tongue in cheek.

It's not about being happy with what you've got, it's about understanding what's coming next. I like to see what's in the pipeline. It helps me make an informed decision. Too much buyer's remorse if you don't pay attention.

 

Simona, many of us are getting new hardware for ourselves and our clients, and we need to know what is coming to tune our decisions for ourselves and others, based on available info.

It isn't only for our own needs that we do this research.

But, you are right, for ourselves it's best to be happy with what we have, and to enjoy it to it's fullest, because it is what we can touch and experience right now.

Tomorrow I am getting a new laptop for myself, a Broadwell based laptop, and I will be very happy with it. I won't be thinking about Skylake, or any of the future releases, only about what I have now.

On the same day, I will be doing research for future work that will need me to be forward looking at the new hardware coming available sooner and later. That is part of what I need to be aware of for my work.

None of it is boring, maybe occasionally overwhelming, but point your face into the wind and keep going forward, and leave the boredom behind

 

Sounds like a cool name, better than Lava Lake. Hope it lives up to it.

 

When do we get Loch Ness?

 

Ice Lake Baby.

A light skinned cpu that raps your compute world.

 

Shortly after Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg (hope I spelled it right)

 

forget everything .. and go to the lake

OMG when did the WingNut reach 33k posts ... lol.

 

I dunno, was there cake?

 

Kaby Lake is said to be a Skylake refresh correct?

The saving grace is Kaby Lake comes out when Pascal is due for release so regardless Intel sells chips.

 

there was ... but not anymore I see you've given like 30k advices since last time I was on here, lol, ~2 years give or take. So you're like and adviser now

anyhow, I was waiting to see when Intel will hit that brick wall in the manufacturing process ... and I guess it's coming around the 10nm process. About time they give more effort onto the GPU part.

 

Forget about pooping, diarrhea on the way.

 

But diarrhea is poop, just runny poop. Anyway what is this randomness?

 

Just bored, and what is up with all of these speculation threads and "forget this and that" threads that make no sense.

 

It's just tongue in cheek way of saying what's next in the Intel pipeline. This has been going on for years, mostly thanks to Jayayess1190.

 

Well there is the OT section for that, you know

 

Forget Kaby Lake wait for Cannon Lake with unofficial DDR4-2666 memory support.

 

good times are here...

Skylake-Desktop Gaming becnhmarks - High End GPUs - Anandtech

I am just hoping they will deliver the notebook CPUs by December.

 

Guess they didn't include the 4790K because it would win every gaming test

 

Cannonlake News:
Intel Corporation Will Finally Be Upping Its Core Counts With Cannonlake

 

Interesting. Great for workstations, though honestly, high-clocked quad-cores are enough for my workflows.

 

Quad Cores are great, bring me Jaguar in 5 pound laptop form factor with 1,000 petabytes of storage and 1,000 core i100 mobile CPU and dual HellFirePro and GeForce GPU. Workstation and Gaming box in one. Can know all, can run all. "My plastic fantastic lover. Data Control & IBM" The Jefferson ThinkPad takes off. aka the SuperComputer in a briefcase.

 

So will Kaby Lake be a refresh for Skylake? I know Intel has commonly been doing a refresh for each generation.

 

Kaby Lake is a tock, still on 14nm though. Cannonlake was supposed to be Skylake's tick before it got delayed.

 

Kaby Lake seems to be touted a 'skylake refresh' per this article: http://wccftech.com/intel-14nm-kaby...16-256-mb-edram-hseries-91w-kseries-unveiled/

And yet the Intel 'tock' cycle seems to indicate a change in microarchitecture in other articles.
So... which one is it?

 

Does it matter? As always, we'll get a 5% clock-for-clock improvement, maybe 10% tops if Intel is feeling generous.

 

Unfortunately, since there is always something newer, faster, better, just around the corner, if we always choose to wait, none of us would have a system!

 

See:
http://www.extremetech.com/computin...-will-introduce-kaby-lake-at-14nm-to-fill-gap


Seems to me that Cannonlake will be the next major change.

Doesn't matter to me either, either way. I'll buy (or not) what makes sense for me, after testing it myself. Not what a not real world usable clock for clock (or apples to apples) comparison might say I may get.

The platform as a whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. Just like Windows 10 brings DX12 support, Skylake brings other aspects to performance that will become more meaningful with time.

Today, with the right RAM (DDR4 2667 or higher), Skylake matches and exceeds the long in the tooth and highly optimized Haswell platform that comes before it.

Kaby Lake will be no exception, regardless what clock for clock improvements mock 'apple to apple' tests might show.

 

It's totally going to be what Skylake was supposed to be. Higher clocks, better cooling, minor architectural optimizations, a generational leap in GPU performance, and platform improvements.

I have a hard time not believing that at least a portion of Skylake's improvements were held back for Kaby Lake so that Intel will have a more compelling 2016 product.

 

Skylake is what it is, as will Kaby Lake be...

No doubt Intel would like Skylake to have included everything they are planning for Kaby Lake, but I don't believe for a second that they would simply keep their staff on salary and allow them to do nothing in the meantime just to make Kaby Lake seem 'extra' impressive (for you).

Whatever improvements Kaby Lake will offer are being worked out today and will be ironed out now and over the next 6 to 9 months... Not just sitting on the drawing board and waiting for an executive 'go ahead'.

While there are examples of companies that bring out a product too early... there are no companies around today that will sit on tech 'because they can'. They give what they have, period.

If your version of events were the norm, AMD will stun the world and it's competitors... sometime in 2057...

 

Predictable

 

Yeah;

 

And now Win10 will be mandatory with Kaby Lake going forward (and other 'new' processors from everyone other than Intel).

See:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9964/microsoft-to-only-support-new-processors-on-windows-10

I'd like to see how the 'Win7 forever' advocates get around this one.

 

News flash: seems that even Skylake platforms have only 18 months life left in them too on ancient O/S's.

See:
http://arstechnica.com/information-...ers-given-18-months-to-upgrade-to-windows-10/

 

Seems to me that this just shows Microsoft can't sell (or even give away!) Windows 10 on its own merits, so they decided to force people to use it, like they've done before. It looks like a desperation move and one that can generate even more anti-Microsoft sentiment. The market is ripe for rival operating systems.

 

Hasn't it always been like this. When AVX was introduced Vista never got an update from MS to be able to use it, at least have context switching, instead only W7 got it with SP1. Perhaps if W8 would have been launched near AVX introduction W7 wouldn't have got it either.

Wonder if this means we will see AVX512.

 

How can MS not support it? Perhaps from a MS driver level, but Intel and motherboard suppliers will supply appropriate BIOS, firmare, and drivers to work with Windows, not the other way around. And sure if there's features in Intel's CPU's that need OS level support to work, then you might need Win10 but I'm not aware of anything, and even then, it just won't be available or work with earlier OS versions. But to lock out an OS based on having NEWER hardware is a bit odd and underhanded.

If nothing else this will just stagnate the sale of newer CPU's or systems with newer CPU's. Microsoft just doesn't get it, clearly.

 

With the old joke going that Microsoft releases a good OS every other release, how could their behavior forcing people to use the latest OS possibly go wrong?

 

They don't mean that it won't work, they just mean that if it doesn't, it's not their problem. It's meant mainly for businesses. For example, I tried upgrading my Sandy Bridge laptop to Windows 10 and it almost worked: everything was fine except the system took 2.5 minutes to boot (compared to less than 30 seconds for Windows 7 on the same SSD). If such a thing had happened to a business that had paid Microsoft for Windows 7 support until 2018 and had tried to downgrade the preinstalled Windows 10 to Windows 7 on a Kaby Lake system, Microsoft would be obliged to fix it. With this statement, they're saying that if the drivers provided by Intel et al work, then good for you... but if they don't, then it's not Microsoft's problem.

 

Dufus, it has 'always' been like this. The way it worked in the past was M/B makers were able to insert required microcode in the BIOS to at least (potentially) make the newer components stable (even if newer features couldn't be implemented 100%).

djembe, Win10 has been installed on over 200M devices and counting... so, I don't think your assessment is accurate. Twice the adaption rate of Win8 in the same time period (6 months). Win10 stands on its own merits without any excuses.

This is not a desperation move, it is a move from necessity. What sense does it make for MS to have it's O/S's support 20+ years of processor platforms? None. Not when it slows down and degrades the adaption of new features in new O/S's, makes older O/S's slower and less stable (when trying to use some of the newer capabilities built in to new platforms) and inevitably creates an atmosphere of finger pointing when it simply stops working at some point for some people for some specific workflows.

Just like the fruity company has controlled the hardware and software from the beginning and had the dubious distinction of a 'better' ecosystem vs. MS and PC's (i.e. with limited combinations of hardware and O/S's offered; theoretically every permutation could be coded for properly)...

Now, Intel, AMD and even Qualcomm’s chips will require Win10's latest iteration at the time of their introduction to work properly. That makes sense like nothing else MS has done for a long time.

Seeing this as a bad thing in the long run is very short sighted of anyone.

HTWingNut, just like everything/everyone else; even the M/B manufacturers will need to conform to a certain standard. I'm sure there will be a few (in the beginning) that might continue providing microcode to enable older O/S's to be used with the latest HW, but I for one will never recommend, use, or provide support for such Frankenstein builds except to say what I've always been saying: (clean) install the latest O/S, use the latest drivers, don't look back - look forward.

There is nothing underhanded about this. MS and gang is giving everyone 18 months to adapt to this new reality. If I was paranoid, I would be stocking up on Haswell and Broadwell based platforms and ancillary components (for possibly the expected life of my business while I'm still (expected) to be in charge). But ignoring reality is never a good solution to any of life's challenges.

This will happen because it needs to happen.

As everyone I know who has fallen down the rabbit hole of Linux knows; the O/S and the hardware are intimately connected. It is no small feat to support legacy hardware while enabling modern features (where possible). Once in a while you get lucky and we get the posts where 'my 3/5/7/10+ year old system is still all I need today'. But that has come at a cost for everyone else that has modern hardware and workflow expectations.


Mr. Wonderful, I don't see this as 'forcing' anyone to do anything. One either signs on with the new expectations or one doesn't. And with regards to that 'old joke'? Yeah; it's getting old now.

As I've mentioned since joining this forum; I've moved from Win XP, to Vista, Win7, Win8, Win8.1 and Win10 as they were available (or sooner for many of them... Thank you MS for your beta programs!).

In each case I found the benefits the 'new' had for me and managed to minimize the negatives (real or perceived).

I know I'm not the smartest person in the world. If I could figure this out; others can too (if they let themselves).

So for me, that old joke is something that comes from people that have no experience with moving to a new O/S. Or at least had the wrong expectations.

Since Win10 RTM came out July 29, 2015 (and I used it literally minutes afterwards - in addition to being on the Windows Inssider builds for months beforehand...) I have seen three major changes in how the O/S 'feels' and/or works. One was a cumulative update just before Threshold 2 came out, threshold two and the last cumulative update this past MS Update Tuesday on the 12th.

Today, the O/S feels faster, more responsive and has more features than when it was first released. And during all that time; Stability hasn't changed one iota (rock solid for me; clean install highly recommended).

While the past is a good indicator of what will happen in the future; it seems to me that MS has already created the past that shows the future does indeed look bright. Not that I am that naïve as to think I won't ever see a problem going forward... but I am more than a little confident that whatever problem comes up will be dealt as promptly as can be.


Althernai, I read those articles to mean the exact opposite of what you stated. The one responsible will be MS.

As a matter of fact, the article writers are not even sure if these changes will even apply to businesses.

All, as usual, we'll have to all wait to see how this will actually play out. But I am looking forward to these changes very optimistically.


In past posts on this subject (in the latter posts), I may have hinted that a version of this reality needed to happen. Before, it was up to the individual to make it so. MS et al is taking a stand and rightly so, imo. Judging from those past posts and how irrationally people seem to defend the old instead of (constantly) embracing the new.

 

Tiller, the AVX problem was solely an OS problem and no microcode or BIOS will ever fix that.

When a program is launched from the Windows dispatcher it is given a quantum in which to execute, usually 15.6ms. Once it's quantum is finished all the registers need to be saved so that it can carry on from where it left off when it gets it's next quantum, turn. This is context switching and prior to W7 SP1 the AVX registers were not saved during a context switch, well the top half actually. Vista could have been hotfix updated to use AVX but it wasn't.

If/when AVX512 comes I suspect it will only be supported by the latest Windows version (W10?) and the older Windows versions will miss out on an update to be able to employ them.

This could be just one of the ways newer CPU's will not be supported by older versions of Windows.

 

One of the major benefits of Windows has been that it is both frontwards and backwards compatible. Why do you think Microsoft kept the system requirements for Windows 7, 8, and 10 the same as Vista? They want people to upgrade to use their newest operating system on older existing hardware. And all hardware released during the support cycle of a Windows version is tested for that version. I agree with you that Windows versions not currently in support (XP and older) should not be supported for newer hardware. However, for Windows versions that are still supported (Vista, 7, 8.1, & 10), I believe it is the responsibility of the company to continue providing support for those operating systems on all released hardware until that support cycle ends. And Microsoft has honored that, until now.

So what is different now that Microsoft would choose to change their policy? The difference I see is a lukewarm reception to Windows 8, 8.1, & 10 - their last 2 (and a half) operating system versions. Microsoft offered discounted upgrades to Windows 8 to many and free upgrades to Windows 10 to virtually everyone running Windows 7, 8, or 8.1. They spent a ton of time, effort, and money promoting Windows 10 to the point of turning every home version (and now every pro version as well) of Windows into nagware to upgrade. And yet, even though it works fine for you, there remain widespread problems with drivers, compatibility, automatic updates, and privacy violations that have caused many to choose against Windows 10. There's even a thread in the Windows section of NBR that details how to remove all traces of Windows 10 upgrade "helper" software, and it's got a lot of posts and views. With the existence of this kind of negative feedback, Microsoft is faced with continued jeopardization of their revenue streams: i.e. new operating systems and profits from the Windows store and (theorized) targeted advertising.

You claim the restriction of the latest hardware to the latest operating system version is necessary, and I agree that it's certainly easier for the developers at Microsoft that way. But to me, it seems Microsoft has other motivations for making this move. And I see these other motivations as pleasing Microsoft's shareholders at the expense of their customers.

 

Dunno, seems these days marketing is trying to use scare mongering tactics to sell items.

Strange how I'm seeing Kabylake bench results running W8.1.

 

Dufus, I took your specific example and used it to show the general trend of how newer processors might have needed modified BIOS/chipsets to work reliably in older O/S.

Sorry, my mistake.


djembe, that was a huge benefit of Windows and will continue to be for all current platforms until end of July 2017.

However, that is precisely why I think this change has to happen. And whether it happens in mid-2017 or later, it will happen either way for MS to survive into the next half century and more.

The reason the system requirements haven't changed significantly since Vista is one reason why PC sales have plummeted since. The other side of that coin is that there has been no new killer application that requires the latest hardware for most people.

Myself? I have stopped supporting Vista, Win7/8/8.1 except for exceptional circumstances (family/friends/etc.) and even then, most of the time it is to suggest upgrading to Windows 10 (and in most cases; on newer hardware too). People still seek my services (even though that isn't my main line of work...) and most understand two things:

1) I can fix an issue (large or small) on older hardware running an ancient O/S.

2) What doesn't make sense is to fix the larger issues when my invoice will be greater than simply buying a new system (including an O/S).

I can see MS in the same boat as me and the shareholders can too. Drop support for older platforms and concentrate on what is current today.

The reality above is harsh for some, initially. But in the end, all the aspects of a new system; a new O/S and the excitement of being able to use/run it just as well if not better than the previous configuration quickly dissipates the fears, any extra expense and outright 'gambling' that trying to keep an old platform (hardware+O/S) in a somewhat working order would entail. The 'gambling' refers to the many systems I've maintained (using a lot of hours but no new or upgraded hardware) and within an 18 month or less window, the platform develops another show stopping issue (M/B dies, power supply takes out the data drives/video card/network card/tuner card (two or more of each...), RAM becomes unstable (and replacement RAM is 5-10x as expensive as anything current), or the O/S finally meets a Program it doesn't like (no matter what tweaks and workarounds are used).

The reception to any Windows O/S has never been lukewarm, if measured with the right scale. The vocal minority on these forums and others might show different, but I meet new people all the time (and therefore cannot influence their decisions...) and they use the newest O/S and platforms without issue. As a matter of fact; that is how I became such an early adaptor of Windows 10 (others experience...), even though I was in test mode with the Inssider Previews for a long time.


Dufus, yeah; this is a brave new world.

What worked yesterday won't work tomorrow. It never has.

As far as BM'ing Kaby Lake on Win8.1? All that tells me is that I will need to do my own testing once again.

Why? Because the results are worthless. Especially with this announcement from MS, of course.



All,

I think we have shown all the aspects of this announcement by MS to change their stance on future platform support. What will actually happen depends on a lot of things.

But going back to supporting 10+ year old O/S's is not going to be one of the options anytime soon.

Vista brought a lot of needed changes to the under the hood operation of Windows. Win7 to Win10 today is continuing that and at an ever increasing rate.

The focus on deep integration between Windows and the silicon is what will bring about major benefits in the next few generations. At least that is the hopes and wishes of all involved (including us mere users...).

All I know is that if MS, Intel, AMD, Qualcomm et al continue doing what they have been doing? Nothing great is in store for any of us that depend on the best that tech has to offer.

I've already voted on Win10... and I'm willing to give the players the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong.

At worst; I will be using the hardware I can readily buy today. At best? See you sometime past Kaby Lake.