rMBP 15": Buy now or wait for refresh (3rd QTR 2013)

I've been contemplating this purchase for a while, but until now have just held back due to its cost. Now that I'm willing to take the plunge, I wanted to find out if I should go ahead and buy it now or wait for the refresh expected around June/July this year.

My main concern about the current model is the ability of the GPU, both the HD4000 on the Ivy and discrete GT650M, to handle the Retina display. From what I've read, generally, this does not seem to be an issue, although there is the fact that the GPUs are being well and truly pushed to the max at its native resolution. The review of the rMBP on TheVerge did mention that most high end games did have issues running on high/max settings. For $2200-$2500 + tax, this is definitely a cause for concern.

Now with Apple refreshing the MacBook Pros later this year and Intel also releasing their Haswells around the same time, it would be without doubt that the new rMBPs would come equipped with the new CPU. If the reports on the Haswell are anything to go by, it would seem that there is a significant improvement in terms of power consumption and graphics performance, especially on the GT3 version. According to AnandTech, the GPU on the Haswell is 2x more performant than the current HD4000 and on par with the Nvidia GT650M.

Having said that, the only components that would make a significant difference on the current rMBP are the CPU/GPU (integrated and discrete). I don't expect Apple to drastically change their SSDs or there being a significant difference between the current SSDs and the possible refresh or neither them changing the memory from a DDR3 to a DDR4.

There is one other thing and that is if the performance of the new Haswell integrated GPU is on par with the current 650M, Apple could even drop the discrete and lower the price. Of course that is just speculation at this point, but if I were to make a reasonable guess, I don't expect any major changes to the remaining hardware except the CPU.

If all else remains as is, is it worth waiting for the new rMBP with significantly better power and graphics performance over the current model? Have you noticed any performance issues with the current model when it comes to driving graphics?

 

Can I get a decoder for that paragraph?

 

:rolleyes2:

 

3rd quarter would be way longer then usual cycle, dont you think?
(i am also waiting for an update to buy new mbp)

 

Intel has pushed back the release of their new Haswell chips to June, so I expect Apple to also release around that time as well.

 

I haven't had any issues with gaming performance. I think most that do are trying to run all their games at a full 2880x1800 which is a bit insane.

But as with all upgrades, if you think you can wait until the next update, then of course wait...

 

You don't buy a Macbook to play games, RTS games maybe, but definitely not to game. At least I didn't.... I need to update my sig. but I just bought a macbook retina 2 weeks ago and absolutely love it, so far. If you wanted to game exclusively you should just go with an Alienware or a Sager. As much as I love my Macbook Pro I'm not convinced that this thing can cool sufficiently for 24/7 gaming.... I already own a m17x Alienware but I only got my macbook because I was deciding between the Razor and the Retina Macbook, and went with the Macbook...

And Bootcamp isn't the real deal, there are still flaws. For instance you don't get a full keyboard which I actually found problematic for gaming, and the touchpad isn't optimized as well as it could be for windows as well the Nvidia GPU running 24/7 which could also prove to be problematic. It's second-class, second-rate, is all I'm getting at. It's not the real thing and I'd never consider having that as my main/primary....

THe best way for me to explain this is like owning a kit car Ferrari, it might look like a ferrari and even be as fast as a ferrari, but it isn't the real thing...

 

Yeah, you're definitely not running games at full resolution on a rMBP all the time. It's not that you can't - D3 native OSX version you can run 2880x1800 with low FX and you still get about 35-40fps. HL2 Ep. 2 with maxed out everything including resolution you can get a solid 50 fps (at least from what I can tell squinting at the console at that res lol)

The big problem is heat as darkloki suggests. You're pretty much bumping into steady 80-90+ degree C temps when you run that resolution. Not good for the long term you would think.

 

For a machine priced at $2200 + taxes (and thats the base model), you would think that it would come with a bit more firepower to push that retina display. I do love the build quality and the superior specs of the current rMBP, especially the retina, but with the new rMBP being possibly 4-6 months off, I'm just compelled to wait and see if that gives me more bang for the buck.

 

You could always buy a refurbished one. They carry the same warranty as new and are also eligible for AppleCare. Only thing you don't get is the nice, white box with colorful graphics.

Refurbished MacBook Pro 2.3GHz Quad-core Intel i7 with Retina Display - Apple Store (U.S.)

 

I hear ya. The only reason I got a MBP in the first place was I got a refurb base from the Apple store for under $2K USD after taxes. The base rMBP should have been priced at its spec for about $1,800 to begin with tbh.

The build quality and display on the rMBP are amazing, though. Apple notebooks in terms of build quality are head and shoulders above 99% of Windows notebooks. I cross-shopped an MSI and a Sager when buying it and there really is no comparison between them. HP ProBook (maybe Razer) might make a run at the 2012 MBP, but that's about it. Spec wise, the lure of OSX and passable discrete graphics combined with epic build quality won me over. And the trackpad -- OMG. The trackpad is the best trackpad on any notebook, ever.

As for the Haswell upgrade, I think it might be worthwhile to wait, especially if they improve on the discrete graphics (maybe go 8 series AMD, esp. with Catalyst 13+ hopefully solving the Enduro issues Apple will go with it) on top of the improved integrated graphics. I didn't wait because of the refurb price and tbh I'm happy with 1440x900 graphics and medium settings (not hardcore). The price premium will never change though.

 

GPU drivers on OS X are in no way related to their Windows counterparts. For the portable systems, it's on Apple to release updates. In Windows the discreet GPU runs all the time. On the plus side, that means you get none of the negative side effects that can come with switchable graphics. On the negative side, heat and power consumption go way up and battery life goes way down. Unless Apple has a change of philosophy, which is highly unlikely given the low priority Boot Camp is for them, don't expect the next generation of discreet-GPU-enabled MacBook Pros to be any different than they are today.

 

OK, got it! I thought that Apple went with the 650m due in part to AMD teething issues with dynamic graphics switching (even in OSX), which is why I made that comment. However your comments about Apple supporting Windows through Boot Camp are spot on, it won't make a difference which card Apple puts in, dynamic graphics switching sounds highly unlikely in Windows boot camp regardless :thumbsup:

 

Nope. Graphic switching with AMD GPUs actually works very well on a Mac. No performance issues save for Apple's drivers that aren't quite up to those offered by the GPU maker. No problems with switching not working when you want or working when you don't want. The program GfxCardStatus even allows you to lock the iGPU (Intel HD 3000/4000) all the time if you want. The key is the actual implementation at the hardware level. Optimus and Enduro use the Intel GPU to display the output of the NVIDIA or AMD GPU. The discreet card is not physically connected to the screen whereas on a Mac, it is.

 

sure.. they could put a better GPU in there. Of course it would be underclocked to fit and not be any better... to actually have a higher end GPU they would need better cooling, meaning a bigger machine, and the battery life would get worse. Its all trade offs. You don't buy a rMBP for top of the line GPU performance... it has other things that are attractive.

 

Sorry for the snarky remark last night. That paragraph was something else to read.

As for the the questions, it seems your are the patient sort and don't need a machine right this second. It might be prudent to wait. I really enjoy the 15" Retina MacBook Pro, but if I didn't already have one, I would probably wait for some of the same reasons you cite.

Certainly the next release will be improved. My version 1 Retina is very cool, but lets face it, there is room for improvement and I am sure Apple will do that with the next version.

In my case, I am also interested to see the next version of the MacBook Air. I don't always need big iron, and I would love to have a Retina MBA.

 

That's kind of what the 13-inch Retina MBP is right now. They're not all that far off in terms of physical size and weight.

 

the 13" rMBP is actually already smaller than the 13" MBA... I think everyone who keeps saying they want a rMBA just want a cheaper retina machine.

 

Macbook's retain value better then any other laptop on the market at least from what I have first hand witnessed, for a series of reasons, which I won't dive into in fear of causing more controversy. It's arguable that alot of apple consumers are not tech specification savvy and thus do not really know what they are getting into other then the visual ascetics.... Such as Retina Screen, OS upgrade, build changes, the clear and obvious.... Plus most apple products are so expensive to begin with that they've created their own nich market or value within their consumer base...

Moving onto more of what I originally wanted to say, The retina has gone through one minor/major revision. The Screens have shifted from LG to Samsung, and many people have claimed that the Samsung ones are superior. I want to stress also that if you are a power-user I don't believe you'll ever be fully satisfied with an Apple anything. I find myself personally being a former power-user then shifting to more of an everyday user. Why did this happen you may ask? Corporate America, ever since I started working a while back my needs and uses have dwindled and declined and an Apple just happens to be the current perfect balance of what I want/need. Sad but true I have become ordinary....

But if you truly are a power-user I would not suggest an Apple Anything, primarily because over the course of time I find that you will not be satisfied. These laptops are strong, I'm not trying to say they are weak or anything, but I know for a fact that they will not stay and retain to the expectations to that of a power-user. So in short getting a macbook today or tomorrow in my opinion isn't nearly as big of a difference for Apple Users as it is for Power PC Users.

I really hope I didn't confuse you in all of that, and if I did I apologize.....but I hope you can understand a little bit of what I'm trying to say....

 

Actually that is a very good post Darkloki. as where I was the opposite in transition, as corperate America ( and Canada ) went more on productivity in my fields my needs changed to more and more power user with a different need. and in the end it boils down to what the users needs are as well as budget and expectations of lifespan.

Even for most consumers even the OS has become a moot point, since email, Facebook/Twitter and web browsing, and document writing is almost the same in OSX as it is in Windows as it is in Linux as it is in ChromeOS

 

No harm done. I actually thought it was mildly funny

 

Regarding the whole power user thing, I look at it slightly differently. There are many power user roles and scenarios. Some tax the CPU, others tax the GPU or I/O. Some tax the entire machine and can produce high heat. Picking a machine that is a tool for those roles isn't always easy, especially a notebook computer.

Long gone are the days I have a single machine. I have corporate owned assets for work. I also have a personal collection.

The machines I add to my personal collection usually have some unique characteristics or design. I felt the 15" Retina MacBook Pro was worthy. If I am traveling (leisure) and want to look at the video I've just shot, or some of the pictures I've taken for the day, the rMBP is a great companion. I bought mine for some modest roles, and to run Windows 7 or Windows 8 in a VM. I have not been disappointed in my decision to purchase. Sure, I would have liked the price to be $400 lower but that's how it goes sometimes.

To use a car analogy, some people have no problem spending their money on a premium sports car. Or to put it more bluntly, people can spend their money on whatever they want. Why would an Apple product be any different? It isn't always about needing something.

 

If gaming is your primary purpose would not go rMBP. That thing goes nuclear trying to push a demanding game when the GPU is at high utilization. Most gaming laptops have stronger than the 650 gpu's with good cooling solutions for a reason.

I have an mbp 13 to do work in osx and leave it behind for my gaming notebook when that's my poison.

If gaming is just a sideline it's not a bad idea, just expect heat to be an issue and to turn down the resolution.

 

After waiting/watching for solid win8 touchscreen laptops to show up, I ended up buying a barely used rMBP 15" recently. My opinion is that this the best time to buy one if you're buying refurb/openbox/used. Prices have dropped to around 1700-1800 open box/used and 1869 for refurb. If you wait for the next gen, you'll either be paying 2k+, or waiting until this time next year for prices to drop.

In terms of performance too, this is a very solid machine. You do see some lag in UI animations and scrolling in browsers. I personally don't want to watch animations anyway so I have installed TotalSpaces (which gives me grid spaces and gets rid of the animations). Browser lag is sometimes annoying but it only happens on some graphic heavy websites. Even here, I generally use the keyboard and don't see animations for page up/down etc. YMMV here, try it out in store and see if you will be seeing UI lag in your usage and if it is annoying for you. Other than that, I'm quite pleased with performance. Portal 2 is the only game that I've tried and it was excellent. Battery life on integrated is around 8-9 hours.

I would compare it to the iPad 3.. sure, the CPU/GPU struggled a (teensy) bit with the retina display, but performance in daily usage was excellent. In some ways, both of these products (iPad 3 and retina 15") are very complete.. excellent displays, good enough CPU/GPU, very good battery life, and at the very start of a cycle (so you can get the maximum possible use out of them and before something else that is new and shiny comes along).

 

The original post says nothing about gaming. I know it's hard to believe, but some notebook computers never run a game.

 

Delete, not helpful to the thread.

 

Fixed my post. It was a general comment and not directed at you personally.

 

I was actually considering the rMBP because it had first come out when I was looking for a new notebook. The heat when GPU is being utilized heavily dissuaded me.

 

I thought the temps were very good in this computer? sure it gets hot to the touch, but thats the nature of aluminium. from what I heard under gaming loads CPU/GPU does not excess 70-80 degrees, and thats a lot less than Sandy Bridge MBP!

 

I'm in a similar conundrum and have decided (at least for this week) to wait for the next refresh. I don't "need" an upgrade right now and this helps me with the waiting game.

I really don't see Apple dropping the GPU. No matter how much Intel improves their GPU, it will always be the "slowest" GPU because NVIDIA and ATI will make their slowest/cheapest GPUs match that. The GPU in the 15 is also one of the primary differentiators between the smaller laptops.

I'm also waiting because an analyst is predicting the cMBP will go away completely and the retina models will have a price drop in similar fashion to when the Macbook (plastic) when away and the priced dropped on the Airs. I'm sure this will eventually happen (maybe not this year) but it's nice to hope for it.

I'm might be swayed away from the rMBP if somebody comes out with a really nice Win 8 convertible with a great screen. But to be honest, I don't see that happening.

 

The cMBP will never go away so long as SSD prices stay above standard drive prices

 

I suspect (and I might be very wrong) that the savings from dropping (thus consolidating product lines) the cMBP might help offset some of the costs of SSDs. Apple doesn't have to wait until SSD prices match HDD prices because HDDs are already quite a bit larger than many people need. I suspect the magic number is 256GB or 512GB (I can find ways to live with 256GB). Once Apple offers that as standard across the line the majority of people won't care anymore.

Same thing can be said about RAM. 8GB is a good magic number for the average user and the majority of professional users. Apple was smart to make that standard on the Retina machines.

Apple's pricing already falls in the "premium" category so it's just a matter of them deciding to eat some of the extra cost of the SSD. It's not like they have to fight for every dollar of profit like some other brands.

 

There is huge Spectrum of users who want/need the ability to change out hard drives from time to time and even many users who have 2 hard drives in the cMBP. Plus Hard-Drives fail over time (Especially SSD's) and restrictions are actually never a good thing. I was one of those individuals just a month ago with two hard drives in my Macbook. I currently have a retina but right now a 512 HDD by Apples Pricing Stanrads is like 800-1000 dollars. How did i come up with that number? Well they're basically charging at least $400 if not more for a 256gb upgrade (The move to 512), so double that and you have your price total. Now at that price, even half is quite expensive. It's all very expensive, and when you hit 2,000 dollars for a laptop you begin to lose rationality or even your ability to see these prices point differences. But look at it yourself and it's exactly that. Everyone buys the Macbook Retina 15 inch baseline model. Anyone who doesn't buy that model buys the other model based on fears of inability to upgrade... that's not leaving a whole lot of options....

I personally try to buy these things and never think back about what could have been or how better I should have spent my money, you can't do that when buying an apple computer, and I highly suggest nobody do that.

 

There's definitely a niche market for a mid-size expandable MacBook Pro with good connectivity and versatile configuration options, something with a good quality screen in the 14-15" range and 4.5-5.5 lbs. Or to put it another way, an Apple alternative to the ThinkPad T series. The problem is, this kind of machine is anathema to Apple's design team who are into streamlining and stripping away until it looks like an iDevice. And Apple seems happy to reign in the consumer space and leave the business and pro oriented market to others. Given their current direction, I would not be surprised to see the regular MBP 13 & 15 retired.

 

When you look at how Apple has neglected the Mac Pro, this is the scenario that makes the most sense. I wouldn't be surprised to see one final refresh of the classic MBP line with updated Ivy Bridge CPUs in Q1 2013 with the next generation of MacBook Pros (either all Retina or of the Retina style with a standard display) this fall/winter.

 

Hopefully we can see a subtle dip in SSD storage by then...