dissapointment with keyboard

right now i am in the store and I must say I am dissapointede with the keyboard. the mistypes you are seeing are the result of that. It bfeels small and impossible to type for long time.
Does anybody know how Acer 8204 keyboard compares to MBP?
Or any other laptop of similar features and price range?

Also, screen is just decent, nothing spectacular. I think it would be much better with WXGA plus instead just WXGA. Those cheap WXGA Toshibas have brighter screen than MBP I think.

Heating: I only saw old revision and it heats but only at the bottom and just beneath the screen so your hands will not get burnt or anything like that if you keep them on the keyboard.
I have never owned a laptop so I have nothing to compare it with but overall first impression is that is overpriced.
Salesman told me that new revisiojns have less heat but...

 

just heard salesman talks to a customer and convincing hin not to buy MBP as they are only Apple store, like yes you can install Windows but that is not optimal and not recommended. I mean he is Apple salesman so his interest would be to sell!?

 

keyboard and monitor are personal preference... plus you won't get much different from the macbook pros keyboard, i think its one of the best out there.

as for the heat, i think it is getting taken care of, the model i have played with is quite cool.

the salesman was prolling telling him to not buy the mbp b/c he prolly wanted to just put windows on it. in which case the salesman would say don't bother with an apple machine if you are justd going to use windows.

 

right now I am in Sony store trying SZ120. although it is 13" it seems keyboard is identical in size with MBP. Keys have certain aftertouch feeling which is very nice comparing with MBP. SZ120 seems compact and functional, no heating, brighter screen. VERY HARD to decide between the two. Having in mind that benchmark for MBP shows 30% lower performance than comparable Acer 8204 then whoever needs MBP for Windows development he might better buy SZ120 because it is $500 cheaper and you get better windows. performance .
It seems it does not make sense o buy MBP because of 2.0GHz/100GB/7200rpm/x1600256MB AND Windows development/usage. ONLY if you need it for MacOS usage then it makes sense. If the Windows performance were comparable to Acer8204 then it would make sense. Whether this performance problem will be resolved in foreseable future remains to be seen. In the meantime it seems the only choice is SZ160/170/180

 

I was not trying Macbook yet. However, as far as I am informed Sony sets
the temperatures when the fan should kicks on at 40° or 45° while the earlier versions of Powerbooks had this temperature at around 60%. So, a priori I would expect Sony to be cooler but noisier. Sony also has better screen, and it is smaller/lighter.

It is not thought as a way to recommend Sony (I am rather sceptical about the both) - I just give you an extra food for thinking.

 

Well, as others have said, the keyboard and the screen are personal preference. I personally love the Mac keyboard - even more than IBM/Lenovo's keyboards, however, their screens do need some work IMO.

 

Essential part of a laptop is its I/O: keyboard and screen, that is the first interaction with the machine. As the screen should not be "washed-out" no matter what (if you are paying $2-3000), in the same fashion keyboard should not feel like a touchpad (again, if you are paying thousands of dollars). It is objective stance: nobody can argue that people who buy Stainway & Sons versus some other piano brand are led by their personal preference (if they can afford it). Better piano always has better after-touch in addition to better or remarkable sound. Apparently T60p has the best keyboard amongst laptops so in order to compare one should try to see how a particular keyboard is far or close to T60p. If T60p has after-touch feeling (I assume it has) then that is the feature according to which we should evaluate keyboards (amongst other things like sturdiness etc.)

 

IMO the macbooks screen is plenty birght, when i took it home for spring break i noticed that the brightness of my 19" LCD monitor was set to a lower brightness level than my macbooks... so i have to turn the macbooks brightness down... i think it has improved alot from the powerpcs
and reguarding the keyboard, i just love the feeling of the keys on my macbook. but thats according to personal preference like RadcomTxx said

 

that 30% hit on performance would just be supposedly less graphics power, general windows on mbp seems to run faster (or so ive heard) then a comparable windows machine.

And wth do you mean by after-touch?

 

By after-touch I mean the same feeling you get when typing on a good desktop keyboard, you simply feel it that you just typed something. Make no mistake: if vendors could squeeze good desktop keyboards in their small laptops they would do it instantly and have billions in sales.
There is no perfect laptop. Keyboard is one of the features. It is bad on MBP, but it is alo bad on Sony FE590 which is also great machine (and brighter screen than MBP). It is just simple as that. Some folks cannot live without good keyboard and they pay thousands and thousands of dollars for T60P for example. Other folks, like me for example, cannot live without DVI, so they will most likely end up buying overpriced MBP...

 

For example lets compare MBP with a competing product, Sony FE590. I configured both with maximum features on following sites:

http://www.sonystyle.com
http://www.apple.ca

Here is the result of comparison:

FE590
====
2.0GHz core duo
Go 7400/256 GPU
160GB/5400rpm HD
XP Professional
2GB DDR2-667
large battery
3 year warranty
$3,050CAN

MBP
===
2.0GHz core duo
ATI x1600/256 GPU
100GB/7200rpm
MacOS + XP Pro
2GB DDR2-667
1 year warranty
$3,350CAN

I try to compare based on (+1 point if one is better than the other)
following features (if the feature is not mentioned I assume bothe have it):

Screen
=====
FE590 +1
MBP 0

Keyboard
=======
FE590 0
MBP 0

Sturdiness
========
FE590 0
MBP +1

GPU
===
FE590 0
MBP +1

Heating
======
FE590 +1
MBP 0

Benchmark
========
FE590 0
MBP 0

Look
====
FE590 +1
MBP +1

DVI
===
FE590 0
MBP +1

HD space
=======
FE590 +1
MBP 0

Better OS
=======
FE590 0
MBP +1

Warranty
=======
FE590 +1
MBP 0

Price
====
FE590 +1
MBP 0

Total points FE590: +6
Total points MBP: +5

=> Winner: FE590

I assumed benchmark numbers are approximately the same. If MBP did better job in using HD speed and GPU speed it would achieve better benchmark score and then the scores would be tied, i.e. buyer could decide based on the preference (e.g. if he does not need DVI he would go with the cheaper FE590, or if he prefers less heat etc.)

 

I kind of doubt that the MBP runs Windows XP faster than a similarly configured non-MBP notebook. That just doesn't make intuitive sense, since the idea is that the MBP is ultimately the same hardware. All of the benchmarks I've seen show the MBP to be roughly as fast as the Acer 8204, which is a similarly spec'd system, although the 8204 does lead in most categories (outside of graphics, though, probably not statistically significantly; graphics-wise, the 8204 is significantly faster).

I think it would be silly to buy the MBP with the idea that it would be a better Windows XP system. I'm debating getting one to replace my 8204, but not because I think it will be better at Windows. In fact, I'm a little concerned about heat, or conversely about graphics performance because of heat issues (i.e., the X1600 is underclocked significantly on the MBP). Rather, I'm considering it because, in my line of work, it would be helpful to have more exposure to OS X, and that would be one way to get it. I'm debating it, though, because the 8204 is such a nice Windows system. It might make more sense for me to just get a Mac Mini to play with OS X on....

Just my $.02 (or less) worth...

 

I personally want laptop with

2G-667MHz
>=100GB/7200rpm
2 GHz core duo
>=x1600/256

I also want

1) sturdiness
2) bright/shine screen
3) good keyboard
4) DVI

So far I could not find all of this in one laptop.

8204 lacks 1) and 2)
FE590 lacks GPU, 3) and 4)
MBP lacks 2) and 3)

Out of 3 bad options the best is 8204 (if you can live with washed-out screen). Or maybe wait for next Acer model and buy sufficient warranty to compensate for the lack of sturdiness (with the hope next model will have brighter screen)...

 

Some of this is very subjective - the screen and keyboard feel are, in my opinion, subjective to the individual. In addition, some may not care for a larger HD, but for a faster one, which would indicate the MBP as the winner there.

 

Faster HD (and other "faster" items) are covered in Benchmark (performance) feature. As you can see both FE590 and MBP has zero points for this feature. (They cannot compare with Acer 8204 in this feature.)

BUT HAVING 160GB/5400rpm INSTEAD OF 100GB IS BIG DIFFERENCE.

On the other hand, if MBP got better performance with this 100GB/7200rpm drive, compared to FE590 that would mean that both, FE590 and MBP have equal number of feature-points (+6).
From there one would select based on preference:
-if he is on tight budget he would buy FE590 (same bang for less buck)
-if he needs DVI badly he would opt for MBP (with full awareness that he is overpaying)
-if he needs brighter screen he would opt for FE590
-if he needs good keyboard he wouldn't select any of these two
-and so on...

 

Let's look how Acer 8204 fits into the picture (I never tried its keyboard)

Screen
=====
FE590 +1
MBP 0
8204 -1

Keyboard
=======
FE590 0
MBP 0
8204 +1 (assumption)

Sturdiness
========
FE590 0
MBP +1
8204 -1

GPU
===
FE590 0
MBP +1
8204 +1

Heating
======
FE590 +1
MBP 0
8204 +1

Benchmark
========
FE590 0
MBP 0
8204 +1

Look
====
FE590 +1
MBP +1
8204 0

DVI
===
FE590 0
MBP +1
8204 +1

HD space
=======
FE590 +1
MBP 0
8204 0

Better OS
=======
FE590 0
MBP +1
8204 0

Warranty
=======
FE590 +1
MBP 0
8204 +1

Price
====
FE590 +1
MBP 0
8204 +2 (~$2400CAN in Canada, ~20% cheaper than in US)

Total 8204: +6 feature-points (same as FE590)

So if somebody is looking for DVI and cheap price, doesn't care about screen and sturdiness, he will select 8204.
If he needs DVI and want descent screen he must go with MBP.
BVut if he wants DVI and descent screen and good keyboard, he cannot find that amongst these 3 laptops. He must look elsewere or more likely wait for the new model

 

Having a 7200 RPM drive would increase your performance significantly over a 5400 RPM one if you're doing any HD intensive tasks, so you can give the MBP points for having this - you gave the Sony points for having a bigger HD, so its only fair to give the Apple points for having a faster HD...

Not to be overly-critical of the way you judge things, but saying they both have bad keyboards is subjective to the user - IMO, I think Apple's keyboards on their PowerBook and MacBook Pro lines are better than IBM/Lenovo's. Also, the "Looks" points in your second comparision is IMO, unfair - it is once again totally subjective to the user.

 

I allocated Benchmark score based on what I read on this forum. Somebody had both, 8204 and MBP in his hand and he measured ~30% less performance for MBP compared to 8204. Performance depends on speed and speed as you say is 7200rpm. So where is the performance then? Probbaly dissapeared somewhere in XP/MBP hardware mismatch. Whatever the cause (and assuming the reviewer did not lie) the Benchmark had to be 0 for MBP. But if you measured both benchmarks yourself, the you can publish it here and then I'll add point to MBP. But even then MBP will have 6 points, same as FE590 (which costs less) and 8204 (which costs significantly less).
Regarding keyboard, FE590 from what I read is no better than MBP.
T60p is business class, so it MUST have better keyboard, otherwise that $1000 more would make no sense at all (nobody with sufficient mental capacity would ever buy it)

 

Regarding Looks, many reviewres on the forum say FE590 is extraordinary look. Many reviewers also say MBP is extraordinary look. So I gave both +1 for the look.

Now, I would give them +2 in comparison with 8204 but many reviewers praise that 8204 carbon look as "ellegant" as well. I personally like that carbon 8204 look more than MBP but I have to comply with what majority of reviewers say.

 

Which benchmarks are you speaking of? SuperPi, 3D Mark, etc. software are mostly unaffected by the HD speed - they're only affected by the CPU/GPU. The only benchmark where the HD is mainly involved is HD-Tune, so you can't say that the Apple's faster HD does not affect OVERALL performance. In addition, how could the Apple score zero in a benchmark? Any notebook, and I mean ANY notebook would score SOMETHING on ANY benchmark software unless it was ridiculously difficult - in that case, the Acer or Sony wouldn't score anything either.

The keyboard is again, totally subjective to the user - I have personally felt IBM's keyboards on several different notebooks (my father's T43, a Z60t's, and a X60's). I do not doubt that they are great keyboards, but *IMO* (and others for that matter) the Apple has the better keyboard. I am not stating this as a fact, but as an opinion - you can't tell someone that one keyboard is better than another, because it is subjective to the user.

Reguarding price: Put quite simply, Apple's are a different breed of computers - they don't really compare to PCs, as they have their own, unique Operating System and software/apps to go with it. If you're trying to turn a MBP into a Windows notebook, don't. It was never meant to run XP, only OS X - Apple only introduced this so that the notebook would have more flexibility. If you're going to be running Windows most of the time, just buy a Windows notebook - you'll get more bang for your buck most all of the time.

 

I totally agree with AmdvsIntel. The way you are grading things is totally subjective to your opinion of what you like, and also basing things on other peoples opinions.

And like Amd said, if you are tyring to make the mbp into a windows machine, don't bother.

Just get what seems to satisfy you and will keep you happy in the long term.

 

I totally agree...my roomate has a powerbook 17" and I hate the bloody keyboard . I guess you just have to get used to it.

 

Well, I did not invite Apple to the Windows arena, it invited itself. Thousands of people will now buy it because the following statement is true:

MBP is a Windows machine.

Some other statements are also true, like:

MBP is a MacOS machine

but that does not mean the first statement is false (MBP GOT a feature-point for OS for that!).

That was a premise from which I devised my "feature-point" system for evaluating, WHICH ONLY CAN BE USED IN COMPARISON WITH ONE OR MORE OTHER MACHINES FOR WHICH THE SAME PREMISE IS TRUE.
I.e. you cannot use feature-points to evaluate MBP all alone. These points are not absolute numbers, they are allocated in comparison to other fellow notebooks for which initial premise is also true.

Obviously, now when we have feature-point allocated to compared notebooks and these numbers are the same, IT IS PERSONAL PREFERENCE to choose one or another. In that regard, somebody who puts emphasis on MacOS will choose MBP in the same fashion like somebody who puts emphasis on DVI. OS or DVI these are just two different features. Feature-point system treats them equally. Some folks prefer DVI, some folks prefer MacOS. BUT SOME FOLKS DO NOT PREFER MACOS AND THEY WANT TO BUY MBP! It is again matter of personal preference. Somebody likes MBP because "it feels good when he lifts it from the table". Somebody likes MBP because it is silent. Etc.

The question is: if the total number of feature points for MBP is less than total number of feature-points for competing laptop, should one be prepared to go for MBP-specific strong feature and disregard other weaker features?
I think the answer is yes if only one additional feature is rectified and can be rectified and that is the price. If the MBP costed less, ie. as other competing products then feature-point wise it would be equal score and one could select based solely on personal feature preference.

 

Not to be rude, but why are you even considering buying a MBP? You have shown your distaste for its interface and some of its hardware, so why not just buy a Windows competitor? As you said, some folks don't prefer Macs, so they should steer clear of them, not go diving into one - to do that is dumb IMO.

MacIntels were never made to run Windows - Apple just released a patch to make it work (in its beta version I might add), so it there's bound to be some bugs and defects in the way it works/runs. Apple NEVER did this to turn their Intel based computers into Windows running machines purely or they would have adopted Windows XP - they're just doing this to give users some added flexibility. The updated version of OS X, Lepord, will improve BootCamp, and will resolve many of the problems users are facing right now, so maybe then it'll be a feasible idea, but even then, it's still a Mac. Macs were made to run OS X, so they're obviously going to run that much better than Windows will. So, if you don't like the OS X Operating System, don't buy the darn notebook.

Macs also cost more than Windows notebooks because they're sold as an entire platform, not just as a notebook or a desktop - they're a totally different breed of computers. Apple has to pay for funding for its OS (which is why OS X is so elegant and secure) and software on top of hardware costs, which is why they cost more. Microsoft doesn't produce their own notebooks and doesn't even support its own software - you've got to go to either your reseller or OEM for help. Apple does the whole thing: they make their own OS, they have their own hardware/software, and they support it themselves - this is a reason why you rarely hear Apple customers complaining over service and support - they only have to go to one company for it all. Not like with Windows notebooks, where you're chasing down your OEM/reseller and 3rd Party Companies to try and make things work sometimes.

In addition, for the money, IMO, the MBP is worth every penny. It has features such as an light sensor, a backlit keyboard, Front Row, and MagSafe that none of the competition has. I used to think it was overpriced, but if you stand back, and look at the whole picture, you'll get a better sense of what your buying. So, MBP or not, don't buy it expecting it to run Windows like a PC, because it just won't.

 

I added +1 point to MBP for having MacOS. MacOS is wonderfull and if I were buyer I would use it whenever I can (like probably thousands of others Windows-inclined MBP buyers). Windows is $##$^# OS, that's it. So I awarded MB point for that. Should I award additional point for good applications that come with it? I don't think so. I never asked for it. I am in the market to buy a piece of good hardware with operating system on it. If you read reviews around first thing that a laptop buyer do here is to get rid of bloatware, all of those things that some fat-ass executive wanting to justify his fat salary prescribed as a must to all of buyers in the world. Clean install is the mantra here. And I fully agree. We want speed, we want good hardware and that's all we want. In order to get that we have to compare laptops. Make no mistake: every good thing in MBP is noted. But also every bad thing. Not only for MBP, but Sony, Fujitsu, Acer and all others. None of them has reached sufficient number of feature-points to be bought right now.

Benchmark (HD rpm + bus+dedicated GPU memory + RAM speed + alltogether)
GPU
Bright screen
typeable keyboard
DVI
good OS options
Warranty
Sturdiness
Price
HD space
Heating

Here we have 11 feature-points (we assume every modern laptop has bluetooth and similar features, gigabit etc.).
Ideally laptop should have +11 score. But that is impossible of course.
We can only compare one with another and see which one scores highest and then see if all of our necessary features are in the winning laptop. If yes, then we should buy it.
I personally posted this because only one of my favourite features is not there and that is Typeable keyboard. If somebody goes and evaluates MBP keyboard himself and awards it +1 point that is perfectly fine (but he is supposed to do it in comparison with some other laptops too, which is a whole idea behind feature system of evaluation, and he will apply the same criteria from his point of view for all the features, so again in the final score he will have quantitative measure of his evaluation to help him in his decision. Again, let me reiterate that this is not an absolute measuring system, it works only in comparison between similar laptops where comparison is performed by the same reviewer)

 

I dont no how you would consider programs preinstalled on the macbook such as the ilife sweet, bloatware. That is just ridiculous. People will buy windows notebooks and then have to pay hundreds of dollars to get the equivelent software. You have to consider what AMDvsintel said, that the Mac is a complete package, and generally safer from a spyware and virus standpoint.

 

that points comparison method thingy is realy unfair i think. they don't really work most of the time. dude, you gotta really find out what you neeed and what you want, list out what's available from the products, and bang - realise which one's for you. you don't buy a laptop and tell people cause it scored 5 points more than the other one.

mbp is still an apple, not a windows machine. at least not today.

 

I totally agree, plus software such as FrontRow is just amazing