Two questions from a Windows user:

Work is buying me a 13.3" Apple MacBook Pro as a work laptop. However, I am a Windows user, because that is the OS that I am used to using (and the OS what I am used to using.

I had two questions:
1) Is a MacBook Pro viable as a laptop that only runs Windows as its OS?
2) Would it be difficult for me to open up a 13.3" MacBook Pro, and pop in my own SATA drive?

 

If work is buying you a MBP instead of a Windows machine, then it clearly is viable for what matters--work. If it isn't, then your office needs a new IS dept and it's not your problem in any case.

Yes, you can replace the HDD easily.

 

1: debatable I find some of the quirks annoyng.
2: easily

 

Could you go into a bit more detail on #1? What kind of quirks should I expect?

 

I'm really lost here OP, if work is buying you a Macbook aren't they expecting Mac software to be ran on it? What's the point?

 

1. No
2. Maybe

1. No, because Mac cannot run Win 7 for more than a couple hours without being plugged in. Win drivers are purposely crippled even if they technically "work." Furthermore, the trackpad won't feel the same way it does in OS X. It's a lot worse, despite being the same hardware.

2. Maybe, because many drives are incompatible as far as SSDs are concerned for TRIM purposes. HDDs should be less of a problem.

I know this because I owned several MBPs until I sold them all recently. I wanted to do exactly what you want to do. I did a lot of research on this issue and ultimately, you will need to submit to OS X if you want to use Mac.

 

my thoughts exactly.

 

Don't worry about the purchasing aspect - it is irrelevant to my question. Long story short: I have the option of picking either a Dell laptop or an Apple MacBook Pro.

The OS is irrelevant. Most of the work that I do involves checking email, browsing the web, and using Microsoft Office productivity apps. I have the choice of picking either a Dell laptop, or an Apple MacBook Pro. And most employees in my company get the same choice that I get - they can either pick a Dell laptop, or an Apple MacBook Pro. Any software app that I need is available in both Windows and Mac flavors.

I'd prefer to do most of my work in a native Windows environment (not a virtualized environment), because I am used to Windows, and don't want to go through the performance hit of virtualization. I have tried using Mac OS X, and am simply much faster and more efficient in Windows, because that is what I am used to using.

However, I like the Apple MacBook Pro hardware better. It has a better screen, and has better battery life. But I would like to know the sacrifices that I would be forced to make if I were to use an Apple MacBook Pro as a predominantly Windows machine via BootCamp. Because if those sacrifices are too great, then I would need to stick with a Dell.

 

1: battery life would be 50% or less of what it is in OSX I get about 2 - 2.5 hrs
2: I find odd slowdowns in network or complete failure in wireless connections( Apple says they are fixing it and I should buy new AE routers )
3: touchpad is nice in OSX, not so much in windows.
4: runs hotter

now from other points of view from me as a power user and graphics designer

Screen is NOT better than newer business class units
still waiting on proper TRIM support in OSX 10.7
the big selling point of battery life is now moot with newer machines exceeding 12 hours easily. and can be swapped fast
no business class HARDWARE data encryption if thats important to your company.

 

Thank you, KCETech1, for answering my questions.

So, it sounds like my best bet if I insist on using Windows is to stick with a non-Apple machine. The MacBook Pro seems quite hobbled if you were to primarily run it as a Windows machine via BootCamp.

 

IMO yes very much, the platform was designed for OSX and Windows was more of an afterthought to complace many windows users into a dual boot, and not much effort was put into making it run as as good as they could

 

THIS OP. ☝☝

 

I am gaming in windows 7 on my macbook pro every evening and i cant say i am noticing something weird.

I mean — there is nothing wrong with installing windows on macbook pro.
BUT... you can get better hardware for same money IF you dont like mac os.

Mac Os is like 20% of the macbook's price. For me its worth it since i love mac os — if its not for you, rather get another laptop maybe.

 

I concur with the masses on this one, to the "t". I disagree with the above poster.

In short:

1. No
2. Yes

@Lieto - I presume you are plugged in while gaming, and probably using an external mouse?

 

So to summarize:

1. If you need mobility, NO. Otherwise, sure.
2. Yes.

Re 1: Unlike some others, I've never had a driver or OS problem of any kind in Windows in well over a year of using both OSes. Never a crash or any anomalies (like dropping network connectivity). I'd consider those things to be minority issues. That said, I do not like using the touchpad in Windows, however. It's laggy for some reason. Using an external mouse resolves that issue. If you plan on being plugged in most of the time, you'll be fine.

 

^^ Yes and i assume op will as well, considering he is going to work on it (in office). Below is just my opinion.

It would only matter for people who travel. 2+ hours is plenty for usage in a city. But ye, its prolly the biggest downside.

Never experienced that (using some old wi-fi router from 2005 and some new one at work).

Its not worse then any other windows touch pad though. So its not really "minus" for windows, definitely a "plus" for mac os though. I think there is some 3rd party utility that can add features to ur track pad in windows. Never used it myself though.

As i said earlier i am gaming in windows — overclocked video, cpu in turbo boost most of the time. And well... its not super hot, loud or anything. (obviously not holding it on my knees though) At some points fans kick in but thats just the same as in mac os.
HOWEVER — while doing something regular like browsing or light photoshoping my mbp is dead silent and cold, so i doubt it matter for the op.

 

I've been researching Windows 7 on Mac hardware and I've read several recent reports of good battery life under Windows 7. I got the impression that the battery life problem has been solved or at least greatly improved with recent hardware. Perhaps because I've been looking mainly at the two MBA models. I don't have first hand experience though.

One of my biggest concerns is the keyboard layout. I had an iBook that I used from the very first OS X release until Tiger brought it too its knees. I never fully adapted to Mac keyboard layout because I continued to use PCs and UNIX workstations at work. The differences in the location of the Ctrl & Alt keys can be somewhat compensated for by remapping, but there weren't any suitable replacements for the Delete key. Fn-Backspace always slowed me down.

 

Thanks for the replies, guys.

I do travel a lot for work - so 2.0 - 2.5 hours of battery life in Windows isn't too spectacular. I also would not be gaming on this machine when I travel (that is what my Alienware M11x is for). And as other people have said, I can easily get non-Apple laptops with Intel integrated graphics that get ridiculously high battery life.

 

... wait, there isn't a delete key?

And how does a user right-click using the touchpad in Windows?

 

2 finger press. You navigate with 1 finger then add another one and press.
Opposite to navigate with one, click with one.

Need to get used to it but then its easy.

 

Sorry. There IS a 'delete' key, but it performs the same function (back-delete) as the Backspace key on a PC keyboard, and it's in the same location. The Delete key on a PC keyboard performs a forward-delete. There is no equivalent key on a Mac keyboard. To do a forward-delete, you have to use the Fn modifier key.

I found it to be a minor productivity impact when editing documents but a bigger productivity impact when coding.

I agree with Lieto that the 2-finger press is easy to get used to. I got used to it in about 10 minutes of playing around with a friend's MBP.

 

The problem is that the right click procedure in windows is not nearly as smooth as it is in mac os x. The touchpad driver that apple offers for windows is not very good. You will get a lot of accidental scrolling instead of right clicking. Additionally, mac os x automatically dismisses "accidental input" (palm type inputs that can occur while typing or resting your hands on the keyboard). This functionality is absent in windows, along with a variety of other ease-of-use trackpad features that, together, make the trackpad in OS X a very effective input device. The trackpad situation in windows is quite bleak. Obviously, this is not an issue when using an external mouse (except that the trackpad is still active and very sensitive, so accidental input can occur). However, you made it clear that you were interested in using this laptop *as a laptop*.

I don't think it will work out well as a windows only device, and I stand by my answer. I don't know if your work will consider it, but there are alternative machines with similar construction quality, design, and good windows drivers, even by major manufacturers like Dell and HP.

 

Awesome. Thank you, Masterchef. +rep'ed.

 

Yes, the chef is right. Apple's Windows drivers are often sub-par at best. I guess they do it so they push people to keep using OS X so it is understandable. After all, Microsoft continues to release software that is a better experience under Windows (Outlook) than on OS X.

I have experienced many problems with the Magic Trackpad and built-in trackpad on my MBP when running Windows. The two finger right-click option doesn't always work (and instead it scrolls a line or two), I constantly accidentally move the curser just by slightly brushing up against the trackpad (this happens in OS X as well but it moves 2 mm, it will move half-way across the screen in Windows), pinch to zoom seems to work only when it feels like it, and I sorely miss the three finger swiping to the left or right for back and forward navigation (both through File Explorer and FireFox).

The trackpad experience is almost completely different under OS X as it is much better. OS X Lion is going to further change that by introducing even more multi-touch gestures and trackpad functionality.

I also agree with chef (and others) in that you should not buy a MBP if you want to run Windows as the main OS. That functionality can come in handy as I have used it before. Someone worked with me to make a MATLAB macro but it uses xlxwrite and that doesn't work under OS X. So I had to install Windows just to run specific MATLAB macros. I think that is pretty much the sole purpose of running Windows on a MBP: you can do it in a pinch, otherwise you should stick with OS X.

As pointed out, driver support under Windows is pretty bad for the MBP line. Even my 13" MBP doesn't run as smooth under Windows 7 Professional x64 and only gets about 3-3.5 hours on a single charge whereas I normally get about 6.5 hours with OS X. There are plenty of less expensive options offering up similar build quality and design if you want to run Windows as your primary OS. The HP Envy line comes to mind as its design was heavily influenced by the MBP and seems to be the Windows running MBP alternative (though the battery life of the various Envy models isn't as good as the current MBPs).

In fact, in the Windows world, spending $1500 on a notebook will get you a damn good model.

 

While I agree with all of the above, in this case, the best option for the OP might actually be to get the MBP as the lesser of two evils. His only alternative would be to pick a Dell machine, which I cannot in good faith recommend to anyone.

If his other choice was either a HP Elitebook or a Lenovo Thinkpad, then it might be a very different story.


....not that I have anything against Dell of course

 

I have a really hard time understanding how much of this forum complains (not the OP just to clarify, just making a point here) about how much it costs to buy a Mac for the little you get but people are willing to spend the money, not even use the Mac OS, which is part of the cost of the Mac, (now I'm talking about the OP) and then spend extra for a Windows license.....(if they are really buying Windows)...which remains to be suspect IMO. As much as the Windows forum comes here and touts how much you can on a PC over a Mac for far less I find it hard to believe people can't find a decent Windows machine with the money spent towards a Mac. It's out there. To pay for the glossy Mac logo when you're really faking it with Windows on the screen is really not the full experience of owning a Mac. Apple optimizes the Mac hardware to work with their own OS because it's designed to be used as a real Mac computer, period. The keyboard alone says it all.

 

I think you mean they optimize their software and drivers to work with their hardware as there really isn't anything in a MacBook Pro that can't be found in another machine.

I pointed out above that spending $1500 on a Windows notebook would get a pretty good machine. In fact, that now represents the higher end of Windows notebook purchases as most models out there (at least at retail stores) come in at less than $1000. They may run the dreaded Pentium M processor and have a craptastic 15" 1366X768 display but their $400 price is the extreme low end.

I may have to use your line when you said that paying for the glossy Mac Apple logo just to run Windows is faking the experience, I like that.

 

to the OP, one " alternative " to look at is the X220. IMO it has 2 flaws that depending on your use can be a non issue or a nuiscance.

upsides is the battery life ( 9-11 h for me on 9 cell, 19-21 with the slice )
the IPS screen, decent i7 CPU, Expressport, easy to swap hard drives to a 7 mm mechanical or SSD, and the 4 year onsite NBD warranty.

downside is 786 res vs 900 and the touchpad, but I love the old trackpoint anyways so for me is a moot point.

Look for the online coupons or call a rep and its a 1100-1300 machine with the slice battery

 

I don't care about the Mac logo (would prefer without it actually). I just think that Apple is very good at hardware design, both in terms of style and function. Occasionally, they push one aspect of the design too far and end up with something that's too compromised. But most of the time they design good products and sometimes they hit one out of the park. In many cases, there's just no equivalent product available from anyone else.

With regards to the pricing, Apple is inconsistent. For example, the 13" MacBook and MacBook Pro are competitively priced. iPhone and iPad aren't bad. The new MBAs aren't bad either. But the MacBook Pro 15 is overpriced and the MacBook Pro 17 and Mac Pros are totally nuts. Also, the rest of the industry knows that there is a 'U' shaped price vs. size curve in the laptop market, with the 15" size selling best to the low end of the market. For whatever reason, Apple hasn't caught on yet and is still pricing their stuff proportional to size. They could probably sell about 5x more non-Pro MacBooks if it were a 15" with a fast processor, big slow HDD, and low end everything else.

Regarding Mac OS X, I have mixed feelings. I was an early adopter, running OS X on my iBook literally from the first day 10.0 was available. 10.1 was the pinnacle for me: fast, stable, and the most consistent user interface I've ever used. ...although the Dock always sucked. From 10.2 on, the OS has continued to evolve from a functional point of view but the user interface has become increasingly disjointed, inconsistent, and less intuitive while Apple breaks more of their original OS X HIG with every release. To some extent, I feel like we're back to the OS 9 days where you have to learn a bag full of magic tricks to be productive.

Meanwhile, Microsoft has improved their offering quite a bit. There are some things I still like better about OS X, mostly deriving from its BSD heritage, but otherwise I think Windows 7 is the superior OS. I was also a heavy Linux user for a while, but now I only do it when necessary because I'd rather be in Windows 7. So the Holy Grail for me is have fully functioning Windows 7, Linux, and Mac OS X installs on Mac hardware.

 

He can't though. His job will provide him with either the Apple or the Dell--so the other options aren't available (I guess unless he's extremely persuasive to the IT head and whatever corporate managers are above him depending on the hierarchy of his office?)....

 

I'm afraid of where this is probably gonna end up but since you mentioned it and it has disturbed me somewhat I'm going to have to ask:

Microsoft has improved their offering quite a bit? How so? By making W7 more stable like it should be? Handle memory better like Windows should've been doing? Adding one new feature so you can snap two windows together? Or improving the Task Bar which should've been done a long time ago. IMO it's nowhere close in functionality and flexibility to the OS X dock.

W7 is the superior OS? How so? Their version of search is nowhere close to OS X's Spotlight, there's nothing in W7 like OS X's Expose, Spaces and Stacks. Being able to have longer and more customized file names in W7 still remains unimproved and very limited. OS X has far more flexibility in naming folders and files. Installation on W7 is still far too many steps for the end user vs. OS X's drag n drop installation. There's nothing in W7 that even slightly mimics OS X's Time Machine backup solution.

To read PDF's in W7 you still have to download Adobe or some other reader. In OS X it's been PDF based since inception.
Even Microsoft's own applications can't be read without installing Office or some reader app on W7. OS X can Quicklook MS Office docs, connect to Exchange Server 2007 without any additional apps installed, this can't be done in W7. I find myself so much more productive in OS X. IMO W7 "IS" a better version of previous versions of Windows, shouldn't it be? But TBH, MS hasn't really done much more to it other than cleanup the mess that it created in the past. There's only a very minimal amount added to increase productivity.

After that I sure would like to know how you find W7 "Superior"?

 

A Ferrari F355 is a spectacular car. You can talk all day about what a beautiful piece of engineering the F355 is, or what a stroke of genius of manufacturing and design that car is. But if there isn't enough trunk space for me to carry my groceries home, then then the car is useless to me.

I'm sure that Mac OS X is a wonderful operating system. But if it doesn't do what I need it to do, or if it doesn't operate the way I expect it to operate, then it is useless to me.

Games.

Microsoft Windows absolutely mops the floor with any other OS when it comes to games.

I don't know about dmk, but I started using Windows and continue to use Windows because it does the job I need it to do (run games). I am not going to be gaming on this particular work laptop that I am asking about in my posts - but the fact that I know Windows inside and out because I have been gaming on it for 20 years, means that it isn't worth the switching costs to learn Mac OS X.

 

I wrote a guide on how to flip the control and Fn keys for people used to Windows. Also, in the guide I show you how to turn the EJECT key into a delete key. Yeah, holding TWO keys to delete (something we do all the time) is not only retarded, it's a waste in productivity.

Mac OS X is decent once you learn the quirks. There's a decent guide on YouTube for Windows users trying to get into Mac. It's some rambling rant for 20 minutes, but it actually does a decent overview.

Other than that, search for my guide on keys.

 

And no PgUp/Down, Home/End or Back/Forward. I didnt realize how much I used those before I got this Mac. Also, as previously mentioned, the trackpad is no good in Windows because of the accidental palm touches which relocates the cursor to different places in the text while you type (happend twice already in this small amount of text), which is really REALLY annoying.

I say get the Dell. Their business range of laptops is up there with the Thinkpads and Elitebooks. Battery time and buildquality is great on those. Plus you get the sexy trackpoint

 

Not sure he actually will be getting a Latitude or what though--has he even responded since? Certainly the Inspirons are not worthy of consideration. (nor the Vostros really).

 

Yeah, don't bother if it's not a Latitude!

 

OK, I'll back off on the "superior" comment and just say it's better for me. Right now I like Apple more for the hardware than the software.

I don't want to have point for point debate over which OS is better. That ground has been well covered. I've used a bunch of different OSs and continue to use multiple OSs and they have good and bad points. I was not always a fan of Windows. But right now, at this moment, Win 7 offers the best ratio of good/bad FOR ME.

I'll also note that I was very happy with OS X in the beginning. But that degraded over time, mainly due to a UI design that didn't evolve in a consistent direction. If you want some idea of what bothers me, read John Siracusa's series of reviews. I agree with him at least 80% and he puts it better than I could.

 

Well it was you that used the word "superior" when you described W7 being better than OS X. You basically forced that type of response from me. I never asked to start a debate on that in the first place. I posted 100% the truth about what OS X offers vs. what W7 lacks rather than telling you I just don't like Windows and Mac OS X is superior without anything to explain my claims.

I don't need to read anything as I wasn't asking what you hated about OS X and if you think me reading what someone else hates about OS X, why would I? I'm not shopping around for the good and bad on it.

 

1) I used my 2010 MBP 13 on Windows 7 95% of the time. The only time I used OS X was in class taking notes. It lasts about 3.5-4 hours in Windows 7. Some people complain about the touchpad in 7, but I found it very smooth and much better than the standard laptop touchpad(much better than the Toshiba's touchpad I'm using now). The latest bootcamp has fixed virtually all the issues. From turning the keyboard all the way off, to fan control, its a pretty sweet Windows 7 notebook. I think all those who have problems with 7 on their MB's, are still remembering the early bootcamp software, which was kinda rough. Once again, I didn't find any issues. I don't think there is a Dell laptop I would choose over a MBP.

2) VERY easy. Take off the bottom panel and the hard drive is fully accessible.

 

I'm not clear on the 15/17" models whether you can run AMD's normal drivers without modifications or hacks or whatever. I'd assume Intel's will work on the 13" model though, for what little that's worth.

What's the Dell choice? I'm assuming it's something lower end, since it seems like businesses usually do that. But if it's got BETTER specs, then that's easy.

Personally I plug in my notebook at work to a mouse and keyboard and external monitor.

 

You can run the latest Windows AMD drivers (11.5a last I checked) fine in Boot Camp.

 

Is that using no hacks, tricks, whatever?

Just going through the normal method?:
ATI Catalyst? Mobility Display Driver

 

Yes. See other thread.

BTW, Pogue. Iphone???

 

I have an MBP on which I run Windows, and mostly agree, except you can do a bit better than 2 hours. The Mac will also run hotter in Windows, and the trackpad sometimes plain sucks. However, you can plug in an external mouse (or, I assume, use a wireless mouse) and solve that problem.

Other than when you are getting it for free, like you are, the 3 main reasons to buy a Mac if you are used to Windows are lack of code rot while running OSX, great hardware, great customer support (including, if you live in a major metropolitan area, the ability to walk the computer into a store). Note I did not say how much better OSX is than Windows, because it is not. It is more like what color of car you like.

BTW, Macs have real limitations when it comes to 3rd party software. My Pentax camera's software will not run in OSX, and there is no OSX version. The Mac will actually recognize the photos, but can't figure out the video clips. So, I need Windows to work with my camera. That is just one of several examples. The flip side is that if I owned a PC, I would have other head aches. Due to code rot, I would have to reload the OS periodically and reload software, though with image software, this is not terribly difficult.

I go back and forth about the best way to go, but for now am hanging on to my MBP. Before I replace it, though, I will look at a Thinkpad (not saying I will buy one, just think about it)

 

What is "code rot"?

(Code doesn't "rot"...)

 

code rot can't be what he means...

he's obviously talking about windows entropy issues, with the registry and with the system. code rot doesn't really make any sense.

 

Microsoft doesn't sell Windows 9x anymore though, so that's not an issue. At least no more than with any other solid modern OS.

 

well code rot is when you are dragging legacy code along that has just been patched again and again or may not even be in use. I work on a very large product at work (~20M lines) and you be surprised how much 'old' code is used, it takes a lot of time and money to remove it, apple is just better at keeping there OS in a cleaner state, but at a cost to compatibility.

not to get into a big discussion about this but windows have a lot of old code in it that is obsolete, but to maintain compatibly they have to keep it. hence why business likes MS so much.

don't be fooled it's there for a reason.

oh, and I've talked with a few MS programs/employees and believe me if they had it there way the registry would be a thing of the past, it just will break so many programs that it would be absolutely crazy.

Apple did a major switch with OS X using the BSD base, and it wasn't pretty, but apple is doing well now because they did.

 

I have no idea why having better backwards compatibility would be a bad thing. Apple's poor track record is a big blemish that prevents me from every investing heavily in them.

 

It incentivizes stagnation and possibly creates a collective action problem. There may be marginal improvements in whatever's new that don't necessarily make cost-benefit sense to someone considering whether to implement it on an individual basis due to the cost, but might benefit them if everyone adopts it. Getting rid of legacy support would force everyone into a better decision than they might have automatically chosen otherwise and lead to a better payoff.