Tried to get rid of the MBP, but couldn't!

I've been using a MBP for a little over 9 months now and after using Windows desktops and laptops for 20+ years, every once in a while I get this little urge in the back of my head to switch back to a Dell, Lenovo, or HP. After all, I still spend the majority of my time running either Windows XP or Vista.

Sorry fanboys, I'm a Windows developer so my livelihood depends on Windows and that won't change for the foreseeable future.

I recently purchased both a Lenovo T61 14.1 widescreen and a Dell D630. Both are business Windows laptops and both are running Vista Ultimate. The Lenovo I used for a couple of weeks before I just couldn't stand how unstable it was running Vista. Not sure if this was a result of unstable drivers that Lenovo provided for its own utilities or if it was a hardware thing. I even bought a copy of Vista Ultimate and did a new install without the utilities to see if things improved. They did, but not enough for my satisfaction. I also found the screen a real bummer. Just plain crappy.

I've had the Dell D630 sitting in it's shipping box for a couple of weeks and opened it up last weekend to see what it looked and felt like. Seemed like a solid little computer but the keyboard is not the greatest nor is the trackpoint. Seemed to run Vista much better than the Lenovo but really no compelling reason to switch from the MBP. I also noticed it getting pretty warm while sitting on my lap untethered to the AC. Seemed more stable running Vista than the Lenovo does, but still not as good as MBP when it comes to keyboard and LCD.

The other thing I noticed is that both the Lenovo and Dell seemed heavier than the MBP. I didn't weigh them, I just picked them up and compared them. So despite the fact that they may have smaller dimensions (because they are both 14.1" widescreens), they are not any lighter.

OK, so I tried to get rid of the MBP and go back to a Windows PC, but I still can't find anything in terms of the hardware to sway me. The MBP is still the best Windows laptop I can find for my needs. I'm also impressed with the fact that I can run OS X, XP, and Vista all on one computer.

 

Bwa-ha-ha. One of us!

 

Sounds great to hear, jjfcpa. Glad you're enjoying your Mac a lot , even if its to run Windows .

 

I had bought a MBP a few months ago, returned it because of the yellowing screen issue. Picked up a T61P, and that promptly reverted me back to buying a MBP. Thinkpad has already been shipped back and MBP is waiting for shipment again. I've been a Windows power user my entire life, but for the week that I had the MBP, I fell in love with OS X. LED screen, DVI, optical spdif, and 8600GT combined into 1 laptop sold me. No other company has that setup in a 15.4". I also couldn't wait for Leopard to come out. I have my sources for that anyways, so it's not a loss of money or problem for me. I just hope they don't release any hardware upgrades or a anodized black case with the release of Leopard.

 

I don't think you'll have to worry, alphaoenz71v . The MBP will almost for sure not be updated until early 2008, with the release of Penryn. There's nothing to update the MBP with right now, as its already using the latest components, and the last update was in June, which is too recent to justify an October update.

 

Hmmm... my impression was that the D620's keyboard (should be the same as the D630's I think) was at least as good as the MBP's... but then I didn't try them side-by-side, or even in the same month. And since the MBP doesn't offer a trackpoint at all... well, I never got used to trackpoints anyway; I'd just use the touchpad.

I agree though that the MBP is nearly as light as most 14.1" notebooks... which is definitely a nice thing. I love the MBP's screen as well.

I do find it a little ironic if you have better Vista stability on the MBP than on a Thinkpad.

 

After using Thinkpads for over 10 years, I thought I would never be able to live without the trackpoint. It's a wonder tool for moving around the screen with precision and without having to move your hand from the keyboard. But the trackpad that is on the MBP is absolutely the best trackpad I've ever used on any laptop. The two finger scrolling is precise and intuitive.

I think the Vista stability issue on the T61 was due to the Lenovo utilities that they install - they've got a bunch including Access Connections (for connection to the internet), Presentation Manager (for managing external connections to LCD or projectors), Software Update (for downloading updated utilities and patches), etc. The one that was dealing me fits is the trackpad/trackpoint utility.

Even after a complete re-install of Vista Ultimate, installing all the utilities (which is done automatically by Software Update), created some instabilities again with Vista.

Now I know that Vista is not quite ready for primetime, but it seems to run pretty well on my MBP via Parallels... much better than on the T61 except for one thing. If you try to copy files to an external hard drive via USB, it is dog slow to the point of you having to schedule stuff like that for lunch or at night. However, this is a problem with Parallels. I don't have this problem with XP via Parallels which has caused me to return to XP until this issue is addressed by the Parallels team. I'm not sure if VMWare's Fusion has this problem, but even though I have a copy of Fusion, I'm not willing to spend the time doing the install just to test it.

There also appears to be some additional battery drainage issue with Parallels, but I don't run on battery power that much anyway.

The one thing I can say about Vista on the MBP is that it definitely boots faster than the D630 or the T61 - all other things being equal. They are all running Ultimate and using the same processor but the Dell has a 7200 RPM hard drive, the other two 5400.

The D630's keyboard is exactly the same as the D620 and one of the annoying things about it is sometimes you get your finger caught between the keys for just a millisecond. If your a touch typist like me, that gets very annoying. The MBP's keyboard is very smooth and really allows me to type without thinking about the keyboard and just focus on the words.

All in all, until something pretty spectacular comes along that convinces me that it's better than the MBP, I'm keeping it. And yes, I intend to do more with OS X given some free time. Currently, all my photo and video editing is done on the MAC side.

 

That word "Fanboy" is nothing short of insulting, it's no complement. Just the fact you bought a MBP you should include yourself with that nickname. Be nice.

 

Vista was what helped me make the switch too. I bought a the new Dell XPS m1330 and just ended up unsatisfied (with the os and the laptops average build). I'm really satisfied with the MBP now. I feel like everything is just of really great quality, and made to work easily. Good stuff. Reading one of the post up there made me realize a question i hadn't thought to ask myself... will i ever go back to a windows pc???

 

When I first considered a MAC, I asked lots of questions and was somewhat turned off by the attitudes of some MAC users. Many of the replies were similar to this.

"Well, if you're not going to use OS X most of the time, then don't bother getting a MAC."

It was very offensive to me because, in my opinion, Apple makes a great notebook, and some of us, don't have a choice... the dies been cast and we're stuck in the Windows world. For me, there's just no way out unless Apple's market share continues to rise and OS X starts to make a much bigger market penetration.

Anyhow, I bought the MBP anyway and couldn't be happier. And yes, I'm learning more about OS X every day and liking it more and more, but I still can't walk away from supporting the thousands of users that I currently have. Thanks to the MAC, I don't have to.

 

Are you running Vista on your MBP?

 

I am one of those people, and if you went back to the drawing board again and asked the same question, my response would be the same.

I/we are not trying to insult anyone, we are simply stating our opinion that one of the primary reasons to buy a Mac is to enjoy the software that it comes with too. If all you want to do is get it and put windows on it, you are defeating the purpose of the "complete package" setup and pricing for the MBPs. I think people need to approach the Macs with an open mind, not "Screw OS X ill just put Windows on it" thinking.

Again, this is my/our opinion. If you get insulted by mere opinions then you certainly need to toughen up.

 

I know SaferSephiroth already responded to this, but I wanted to chime in as well since I usually give this same advice.

No-one was trying to offend you by saying it isn't worth getting a Mac. Also, that attitude isn't necessarily just from Mac users - you're more likely to see a non-Mac user tell someone to not get a Mac if they don't plan on using OS X most of the time.

The main thing is, Apple's machines are nice, no doubt, but the primary reason to get a Mac is still for OS X.

The main point people were making is that if you're going to get a machine and mostly run Windows on it, it is spending a lot of extra money compared to a PC laptop for not much benefit. From a cost perspective it just isn't really worth it.

No-one was trying to tell you not to get a Mac just because you weren't going to be using OS X because of some elitist attitude or something; at least when I say this, it's more because I feel like it's important to save someone a serious amount of money, and recommend they buy a nice Asus or other high-end laptop with similar specs to an MBP, but with Windows, etc. installed.

I mean, you could save close to $1000 buying, say, an Asus V1S (lose out on maybe LED-backlit screen and some weight savings, but still) compared to buying an MBP and a Windows license.

-Zadillo

 

I know this is the third response to this, but since I was also one that made such statements, I'd like to clarify myself.

First of all, its not a "if you don't use OS X, we don't welcome you" sort of thing. Go ahead and get a Mac to run Windows, its just our opinion and we can't stop you. However, why we tell you to stick with a Windows PC if you don't plan to run OS X is because you will be paying for things that you never plan to use; for example, iLife and OS X, and also you will have a better experience with a true Windows PC, whereas the Macs are just "Macs running Windows"; you lose minor features such as a Print Screen key.

So we're not trying to offend anyone, we're trying to help you . We don't think you should get a Mac to run Windows full time because you will pay for things you will never use. However, if you don't mind paying a bit more, and you see a lot of benefits to use Windows on a Mac as opposed to on a PC, go right ahead .

In the same way, I would tell you not to get a smartphone unless you used all the smartphone features. We're not trying to be offensive or elitist or anything .

 

As another MBP user who largely uses Windows on it, I have to disagree with that.

The only feature I really missed was a right mouse button, but I quickly got used to the two fingers on touchpad workaround.

Print screen I rarely use, and having to remember the keystroke rather then having it printed on the keyboard doesnt bother me at all. For other keyboard issues you can always remap the keyboard.

What the MBP gave me in exchange was far more important. A very well designed machine which is a pleasure to use. And at the time the least painfull way to step up in form factor (its almost like a 14¨ machine).

 

But cost/size/weight/brand trade off exists in the PC world too.

Its like saying don't buy a Sony, because you can buy a Dell and save $1000.

 

Well, great to hear that you enjoy your MBP running Windows. As I said before, there's nothing wrong with it...and no one can stop you. However, I don't really recommend getting a Mac to run Windows...but if you don't mind, and you like to, then go right ahead .

 

Fair enough; it's just that even with a premium brand like a Sony, you aren't paying quite the premium (specifically, in addition to the extra expense of the MBP itself, there's the expense of buying a separate Windows license, which you don't need to do when you get an actual PC laptop).

-Zadillo

 

BTW I dont take offence when people make statements like "Well, if you're not going to use OS X most of the time, then don't bother getting a MAC."

I just find it amusing that people are so sure they know what will give me the best experience.

I guess it does happen in the PC world aswell, people do say save your money and get a dell, etc. But atleast its acknowledged aesthetics, form factor, etc command a premium.

Almost every product I buy I won't make full use of. Infact you could easily say to most people who upgrade to a new machine, your hardly taxing the existing one, why waste your money on a new one.

Whats important is do I get the features I want at a price I'm prepared to pay. I definately did and am pretty happy with my 15¨ MBP, even though I run windows on it. I dont think I wasted any money, and definately less then someone who buys one just to surf the web and listen to a few MP3's.

 

Obviously, only you will be able to know that. We can only recommend you something, we don't make the decision for you. In the end, it comes down to you (and I'm not directing it to you, more directing this message towards everyone ) to make the decision.

 

Perhaps its different in the US.

But when I bought my C2D 15¨, I wanted the smallest lightest machine of that form factor. With the best ergonomic feel, I like devices which feel solid not plasticky (is that a word ?). I spend most of my time using my laptop, so I want something that I find pleasing to use.

I aslo wanted a machine that would create an impression when in meetings (I run my own embedded design business). I find the extra outlay generally pays dividends through the extra business garnered through giving a good first impression.

And when I compared the options there wasn't a huge price difference between the suitable machines. Even if I had to pay for XP (I had a spare), in the UK, the 15¨ MBP was priced quite competitively against other suitable alternatives (premium PC laptops, not machines with the same spec).

 

In response to those who urge purchasers to run OS X if you're going to get a MAC, there is one compelling reason to get a MAC that has nothing to do with OS X.

It's the only laptop that you can currently run XP, Vista, and OS X on via Parallels, bootcamp, or VMWare. That was one of the primary reasons I purchased it.

And how about this one... to validate that my Windows ONLY software would run on a Mac via Parallels or VMWare.

And iLife doesn't run on a Windows PC and I think iLife is one of the easiest to use productivity suites on the market.

Just a few reasons why running Windows on a Mac might make sense for those who will only run OS X on a limited basis.

And I won't comment on the superiority of the MBP as a hardware device, because I personally think that Apple has not yet succumbed to using cheaper components in order to compete with other vendors. Why else would people be willing to pay a premium for the hardware just to run Windows... like me.

 

Absolutely.

But right away, you just noted OS X. Without OS X, then basically any PC can run XP and Vista .

 

Thats why I don't take offence

The issue I really have with the statement is, that I haven't seen anyone give enough reasoning to justify it.

I can understand when the budget PC guys say it, because their own choices show that ergonomics/aesthetics/design/brand/etc are not things which are high up in their priority list.

But in the Mac world those are important attributes. So why dismiss them so easily when someone uses them as a reason to buy a MAC, and not OSX itself.

And if you accept those are valid reasons to purchase a laptop over a cheaper one, the other issues with Windows on a Mac, just don't justify that statement.

1) No right mouse button - simple workaround.
2) Keyboard lacks keys you need in windows - simple work around.
3) You have to purchase OS seperately - Cost is negligible if your in the market for a premium notebook.
4) You lose HD space to OSX - Not much of an issue with a 160GB HD, and you get to access to another OSX in exchange.

As a premium notebook I think the MBP offers more then enough when compared to the competition to justify overlooking those very minor issues.

P.S I will say my MBP hasn't been without issues. It currenlt has dirt/particles which have got into the screen. Need to go and get it repaired, but dont have the time right now.

 

It's certainly a valid point.

I can definitely understand why there are people right now looking at the MBP, as it is still fairly unique on the market. Frankly, until the rumors of the XPSM1530 became solid, there really hasn't been anything else on the market quite like the MBP (5.4 pounds, 15.4" LED-backlit screen, 1" thick). I'm not quite sure yet exactly what the dimensions of the XPSM1530 are, but they seem to be close.

It definitely sounds to me like the XPSM1530 could be a very good alternative for those people who want the MBP for its basic hardware/dimensions but don't plan on using OS X.

The only sticking point I might see would be the 8600M GS instead of the MBP's 8600M GT.

I also suspect it might not be that much cheaper than an MBP (if the XPSM1330 pricing is any indication).

But I guess we'll know more when Dell officially announces all the details.

-Zadillo

 

Like i've been saying all along, the MBP is a complete package. Its not just a piece of hardware, it has unique software as well. I don't think the Macs were designed to use only Windows, so i don't encourage it. This way people understand that the Mac is not completely compatible with their needs and they will have problems. The rest is up to them.

 

I respectfully disagree... wholeheartedly. The MBP is 100% compatible with WinXP if you run Parallels. I have not run into one application that will not work on WinXP in Parallels that I could run on my Thinkpad.

As a software developer with over 40,000+ users, I have to be able to duplicate problems on my MBP that my users relate to me. If I can't, then I'm using the wrong laptop.

I also have to support more than 100 computers at a very large wholesale bakery (the largest, one location, wholesale bakery in the USA) and while they are all running Dell's, I run my MBP and WinXP in Parallels.

Yes, I get a few weird looks when I walk in with a Mac and I get a few questions like, "can I use a MAC?", but I've never had any problems with compatibility.

At this point, running a Windows PC is not an option anymore because I've got too much invested in learning iLife and I really enjoy the ease of use of those applications. There's nothing like it in Windows that I can find.

 

I don't want to repeat what someone else said, but it'll be inevitable. For someone like me, who never got to tinker with OS X before, getting a Macbook is a very viable choice. One of the reasons is that just in case I don't feel at home in the long run (I don't see why I shouldn't, but you never know), I can always go back to WinXP. And for someone using MBP, the 8600GT is probably the selling point because you end up getting a Mac, which is an excellent piece of hardware, with decent gaming capabilities. IMO, bootcamp by itself probably was a deal maker to a lot of users out there. And Apple's design team is top notch - you can get a pseudo-Windows PC that looks nice and professional and sleekly designed laptops are few and far apart, and you have to pay a premium for it (read: M1330); so for the same price you actually get a machine that runs OS X.

 

Im glad you are having success with your MBP. However, Parallels is run as a program in OS X. With Parallels OS X and Windows are running, what i am referring to is bootcamp which will run Windows only. I apologize for not making this clear.

Most people from the Windows world looking at a Mac heard about bootcamp and think they can use it to run Windows only. I don't encourage that.

 

I have to go with 5to1 on this, I would purely buy the MBP purely for hardware/looks. There is nothing on the market today, nothing, that can compare the MBP on aesthetics, portability and hardware. I cannot think off the top of my head a notebook that is made of an aluminum casing, uniformed thickness, lit keyboard, LED for the 15inch version and something else I am missing for a decent price. Yes you pay a premium but the amount of engineering to cram that all into a very stylish package can't be beat. I would like to use OSX as my main, but I am a gamer, so xp/vista for me, which I am perfectly fine with. However I am a hardware nut and like to upgrade, so this kinda throws out using the MBP as a desktop replacement, as you can see in my signature. However depending on when my next laptop purchase will be, it will be a mac, but I am still going to be using xp/vista, unless Apple and the general gaming community change their views on Mac gaming, OSX is something of a toy and not a real use for me. And btw, I have a G4 mac at work that I use from time to time, as we are trying to support in a mix mode environment, that is linux, xp, vista and OSX

 

One thing to add about opinions... and this is my opinion and observation.

Not going to point anyone out, but the posts on "if you going to get a mac then you should use OSX, instead of using it for windows" comment is very borderline on zealotry, more close to heavy bias. Its there, eventhough the forewarn mentioned of this is just an opinion. Its almost like shaming the person for even thinking of using the MBP for xp/vista as a main work environment, then using OSX.

Its almost, I repeat almost, like getting a dell laptop, fully loaded with vista ultimate per say, and then just wiping it clean and put any linux distro/free bsd or what have you.

You have to take a step back, and then take 2 more and see it from a different perspective. If I were you and someone wanted portable laptop that can game and look great, boom, MBP tops the list. Can it run XP/ Vista? Hell ya. Whats OSX? A cool looking OS, take it as a bonus to buying the laptop. I would promote it as it can do xp/vista/osx/linux and game as it has a decent GPU. But I wouldn't prevent or advise against someone that will be using it for xp/vista just because they may or may not use OSX. To me, that is being open minded, as it is really, when you look at it purely from a hardware point of view, a PC laptop that has the capabilities of running xp/vista/OSX/ or linux.

I think I have read too much macdailynews, which btw, is great comedy to me.

My opinion, if I have stepped on any toes, well so be it.

 

Once again, we're not being elitist, nor are we stopping you from getting a Mac for the sole purpose of running Windows full time.

We're only trying to help you in your decision! Never have I told anyone that running Windows on a Mac is "wrong". I wrote the Windows on a Mac Guide, yeesh!

What I mean is, if you have absolutely no plans to use OS X, then just get a PC. However, the moment you decide that you want to use OS X, whether that be full time, part time or even just rarely, then obviously you should get a Mac.

I never discouraged anyone from running Windows on a Mac. I only recommend those that don't plan to use OS X at all from getting a Mac, as you will be paying for stuff that you never plan to use; iLife and OS X being the most evident. I'm not being elitist or Windows-hating, I'm trying to help you save on money!

Obviously, the ability to run OS X and Windows XP and Windows Vista and even Linux on the Macs are a huge advantage of the Macs. Once again, I do not discourage anyone from using Windows on the Mac. Most Mac users do and can not fully go away from Windows anyways, me included. My point is, you should only get a Mac if you have an intention to run OS X (along with Windows), whether that is full time, most of the time, part time or even just now and then. If you have absolutely no intention to run OS X, and you plan to run Windows full time, then just get a PC.

Hope I made myself clear.

 

Mac for only Windows? Right then.

 

Sure thing bud.

 

But then you haven't read my post, because I do just that and have no problems.

BTW, I run an embedded design company, so its not as thought I just use it for browsing.

WRT to your previous post, the MBP is 99% Hardware wise as any current PC Laptop. The only exception is EFI instead of BIOS. For which Apple have themselves provided a work around.

I've listed the only issues one would have with running windows on a MBP, and simple workarounds.

I can understand your opinion, but fail to see the logic behind it. Would you be against someone buying a Vista laptop and using XP (or Linux) on it instead? Or anyone running thrid party apps on their machine?

Because the assertion that ¨Like i've been saying all along, the MBP is a complete package. Its not just a piece of hardware, it has unique software as well.¨ could equally be applied to those scenarios.

Wether its got OSX and Apple livery is irrelevant, its a very capable windows machine. And as i've setout before, there may be many PC laptops out there, but not many alternatives to the complete package the MBP provides me.

The upcoming Dell may be one, but its a Dell, I won't really be setting my self apart from the crowd with it (everyone has a dell in meetings).

 

I think its a greater waste of money buying/upgrading to the latest processor/chipset/etc when all you do is surf the web, use office and listen to a few mp3's.

As i've set out before, its really in the same price bracket as other ¨premium PC laptops¨.

You save money by buying the cheapest product that meets your requirements. Not by making sure you use everything the product does.

For example, I never use a DVD writer, but I wouldn't discard a laptop which had one, just because I'm never going to use the writer.

Features I need against price, is the balance one needs to make. Not will I use x,y,z.

 

Once again, this is my opinion and suggestion. As you've explained many times, obviously, in your case, my suggestion doesn't apply .

 

Some people may reject the MBP as a replacement for a Windows computer simply because it's won't run Windows natively instead of through an emulator, such as, Parallels or VMFusion. Granted, bootcamp is a little different; however, let's not forget that Apple has already announced that it is "beta" software and WILL stop working when Leopard is released - it will be finalized in Leopard.

I'm guessing it's time locked to sometime in October, 2007. Of course, they can always push out an update to OS X that will kill bootcamp whenever they want.

Getting back to my point... running any software in an emulator certainly has its drawbacks... speed, startup nuance, work-arounds, etc. But of course, there are also advantages, such as a complete encapsulation of the OS. But the point is that it takes a certain amount of dedication and commitment to run software in an emulation. Also a bit of "techie" experience to feel comfortable with it. Heck, I had a certain amount of apprehension at first because I was afraid it might not start one day.

So I won't pretend that just because the MBP is a superior piece of hardware that everyone should consider it as a Windows replacement. It is definitely not for everyone and certainly requires some serious contemplation if your plan is to run Windows on it.

 

Good for you, but i still don't encourage it.

Not quite. The software natively on Apples can't be put legally into Linux or Windows. My statement still stands.

On the contrary, it is very relevant. That is whole point of this discussion. It is first an Apple computer that integrates Apple software with Apple hardware. The rest are perks.

In any case, ive expressed my opinions and those who care can read them. I have nothing else to add.

 

There you go, that is exactly what i am getting at. Someone who is really interested in the MBP but wants only Windows will have to understand that they will eventually come to a conclusion like yours. Obviously this applies best to mainstream users.

 

Your statement would only stand if I intended to put OSX on a non Apple machine. There is no illegality in running another OS on a MBP, infact Apple have provided a path for users to do so. So my point is valid.

Many machines today come with Vista only. They're advertised as designed for Windows Vista. So my questions still stands un-answered, do you feel the same way about people running other OS's on those machines?

But it is equally virtually identical to any other PC laptop on the market in terms of key hardware. Just packaged better then most. The manufacturer themselves have opened the path to use other OS's natively on it.

I've set out the very simple workarounds that one needs to overcome the very few issues one might have.

If your going to state your opinion on an open forum I think you should be prepared to discuss it with more then a few sweeping generalisations. As others may come away from this without the full picture which would adversely affect their choice.

Despite saying the previous post was your last on the matter you've jumped on the one opinion which matches yours to tell us that we'll all find we are wrong.

I'm trying not to make this a personal issue, and you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, but you haven't provided any hard facts to back it up. And posts like the one above just come accross as condescending. Because really what your saying is, we are all misguided and eventually we will learn the error of our ways.

I think i'll leave it at that, since prospective users have enough to go on to make an informed decision. All I would say is read up on the issues I've detailed, and the associated workarounds, and don't be put off by the nay sayers. There's absolutely nothing wrong with running XP on a MBP, and anyone even slightly computer literate will have no issues.

 

Yea ok man, whatever you say

 

While I agree to some extent that it's very much a vanity based decision for those who buy Macbooks and its variations to run only Windows and a potential waste of money, I think some of you took the wrong method in saying so.

In particular, I have to agree with 5to1 that SaferSephiroth sounds extremely arrogant and condescending, though I am sure that he knows this and simply doesn't care, which is fair enough. However, when you say something like "If you get insulted by mere opinions then you certainly need to toughen up", that is a rather ridiculous statement. If if were my opinion (it is not) that all Africans should not use the same public washrooms as other people, would it be fair to call them merely "too sensitive" if they were offended by said opinion? Are you as contemptuous to people who have Playstations but not FF7?

If one buys Microsoft Office and replaces their iCal, Mail, Pages, Keynote, and Numbers applications with Microsoft variants, are they "defeating the purpose of buying a Macbook"? No, because the rest of the package is still relevant and useful, just as someone may like a Macbook for aesthetics, build quality, weight, battery life, etc and care not for OS X.

In any case, obviously you two disagree. Obviously this conversation cannot be had in a mature manner. Thus, leave it alone.

 

How about you take your own advice. YOU are the only one taking it too far and getting immature, with an irrelevant response like this:

 

Yeah ok man, whatever you say.

 

I'm sorry but this is a stupid post. You can't say that something is virtually identical and then say that you have to do workarounds to overcome issues.

If it's virtually identical then that's what it is. But... it's not. Mac OS X is the primary OS and is needed for firmware and driver updates. As well as all of these workarounds is why people are saying to buy a real physical PC. A Macintosh computer is a "Macintosh computer". People need to stop kidding themselves that just because there's an Intel processor in the Mac that's it's just another PC.
All that was changed in the Macs were the processors. They have always used every common industry standard PC part. the bootable path is very different than that of Windows.

Things you have to keep in mind. First, buy what you want. Second, buy what you want, third, buy what you want. Lastly , Apple supports nothing past OS X and bootcamp when issues arise which may be some of the reasons people are saying to buy a physical PC.
And please, Sony, Asus and Alienware make some very nice looking physical PC's so this thing about the MBP being the only good on the market to run Windows is senseless.

 

I think it has a little to do with the fact that Windows on Mac runs into virtually no problems (with the exception of the annoyingness of the keyboard layout). Gamers aside, there don't seem to be much problems with updates, and now Apple actively advertises that it will run Windows, you would think they would keep things running smoothly.

Buying a Macbook before the update - yes that's basically buying a notebook for the sole reason of running OSX.

But, from the dozens of people who have recently come to buying an Apple because of problems with delivery issues, aesthetics, quality control and a whole range of other things, and that the MBP is comparable internally (and price wise) with the competition, there is no particular reason just because someone wants not to run OSX to ALWAYS give the suggestion that if you're not going to, to don't buy it (which seems often to be the case here).

Besides, probably a lot of people (like me) in the end, use pretty much the Mac OSX side full time after running their machines for a while since it's more convenient, but I think I would also have been perfectly happy using the MBP on WinXP if I had to. By dramatising the difficulties associated with running Windows, potential buyers might be getting the next best thing, while their first choice might have suited them more if they hadn't been scared off.

Also, the whole a Macintosh, is a Macintosh thing - they're put together the same way as every other computer, the only difference is bios and whatnot. If hardware is the same, I don't see why it's necessary to differentiate. And for the average user - well they probably don't care how it works as long as it works.

 

Well there you go, you said it yourself. It is not realistic for mainstream users to expect they will be running Windows and only Windows, period. /End of discussion.

 

That av suits you - take it how you want.

Here's another take on it. I find Mac OSX - MORE CONVENIENT.
I find WinXP on my MBP - AS CONVENIENT AS RUNNING WINDOWS ON ANOTHER WINDOWS BASED COMPUTER (once again, except for keyboard layout, which I might add, I might have gotten used to with Fn key already).

Sheesh.