Thin Laptop Owners Rejoice

I read quite a bit of threads here on notebookreview and other notebook forums, and the one topic that seems to come up a lot is this...

"That Dell Adamo is overpriced, my laptop has crossfire and can run Crysis" (Talking about thin laptops in general)

Does anyone else see a problem with this comment? Obviously a desktop replacement has different uses compared to a 13" laptop, but why is it that most people only look at hardware costs involved?

I understand that people have different needs, a power user, mobile, multimedia, or business. What I don't understand are comments from people about why thin laptops cost so much when it only has a XX processor or an XX GPU.

One laptop may be 7lbs and 2" with crossfire, while the other is 4 lbs and 1" with an avg GPU and might both be priced at $1500+. Personally I don't see either being a ripoff as many may suggest.

The laptop chassis isn't free and it's much more difficult to make a thin laptop than a thick one, thus the extra cost. Anything that is made smaller is going to cost more.

Thin expensive laptops that I'm thinking of are:
Dell Adamo
HP Envy
Sony Vaio Z
Macbook Pro

Maybe you're not looking for a thin/light laptop, but this doesn't make any of the above laptops a ripoff.

So why did I post this in the Apple forum? Well, its because my first experience using a thin laptop is the 13" MBP, I owned a Dell 1520 previously. Also why the thread title? Its because I'm a fan of thin laptops and I was wondering if anyone else shared my opinions of thin laptops.

 

Size matters.

 

This point is moot!
How do you explain Vostro V13 cost much less yet is as thin as like as Adamo?
Don't be silly hardware always cost more than chassis, silly to believe otherwise.

 

Where do you think they got the R&D from to make the vostro 13? Is it really that hard to believe that going smaller costs more? When Dell made the Adamo, the R&D was probably stupidly expensive, thus creating the expensive Adamo. Using that research they were able to incorporate it into the Vostro 13.

Initially its expensive to go smaller, but eventually it'll even out. Why else did you think ultraportables were so expensive back in the day?

 

Meh, maybe to an extent, but not at the cost of power, price, and features. (MB Air..)
I think super thin laptops are overrated, I wouldn't want to feel like I could break it in half.

 

some thin laptops r worth the money, some are ripoffs (envy 13, MBAir)

 

It's just stupid people. They think that if it's not what they would buy it's a rip off or stupid. They only think about them self and not what other people think or like.

 

qft.

On topic, I'm not into thin so much as small footprint. The 16" Latitude Z is thinner than either of my notebooks. And a lot of good that will do when I try to use it in coach, and the person in front of me hits recline and throws their weight back...

 

R&D???
Do you really think Dell owns any factory?
They don't even make the laptop and design is contracted by ODMs. They just do the buying, selling and pricing.
You just got suckered on the pricing part.
Why do you think Ultraportable were more expensive??
Because someone is willing to pay for them because it looks expensive!

 

I would agree with this, probably more so for the Envy13 only cause I think the Envy15 is the same price as the 13.

+1

I would take a guess and say that you don't work for Dell, so what you're saying is pretty much fud. Even if that was true, it still costs something to develop such a laptop. You've already made up your mind about thin laptops, but I don't feel the need to convince you otherwise and I'm ok with that.

The main point of the thread was to talk about how a lot of thin laptops are getting a bad wrap just because it doesn't have the horsepower of a 7lb behemoth.

I've even seen people say the Vostro 13 is a ripoff at $600.

 

Anything less than 1K and have good specs is considered cheap.
I like thin laptops but not those ridiculously priced.
Maybe you should google ODM and find out how they subcontract laptop designs from OEMs.
On the side of the HP Elitebook it was written that it was shipped from Compal China.
If I use my DIY Desktop perspective to view this issue there is no R&D involve in Desktop designs.
They just make sure the casing fit, enough power supply, looks nice and thats it.
One difference however is the motherboard design.
Desktop uses the standard ATX(DIY Builders) or BTX(OEMS)
But Laptop needs customed motherboard for that due to non-standard form factor.

 

So Apple builds all their own machines in Cupertino? Dell actually had a fair number of US factories until recently...feel free to google them vs. Apple having maybe 1 US factory and the rest in China/Taiwan. Maybe Taiwan labor is better than the stuff we get over here.

Apple spends 1.3B/yr on R&D...Dell spends 600M. HP spends 3B, nVidia 900M and Intel spends nearly 6B. What does that all mean? R&D is mostly on the component side(HP has tons of services and many more hardware lines). System integrators just have some industrial design and manufacturing/supply chain expertise vs. any serious R&D.

Ultraportables are more expensive b/c Intel charges $300 for the ULV chip and another $300-500 for the SSD even if the end result is a computer that runs under 1.5Ghz. Looks definitely have something to do w/ it but then again I've seen my g/f spend hundreds on purses she likes to look at but not use. Apple carving a Macbook out of a billet piece of aluminum looks nice but is it significantly more durable than a magnesium/carbon chassis on a Lenovo? Still scratches and dents look like hell. It is however much more expensive given the waste material and machining time. Ideally design engineers would build purely for assembly and service but obviously aesthetics matter or we wouldn't have glowing Apples or faux carbon fiber everywhere since the matte black of a Thinkpad would be the most utilitarian.

 

I'm not sure if that 1k rule of thumb applies to everyone. Also I'm not sure why you're bringing up DIY desktops when you stated yourself that desktops follow a standard whereas laptops don't.

Very well said.

 

You forgot 1 thing.
Dell does made to order production while other OEMS does mass production.
And given the cost effectiveness of made to order a lot of factories were closing down and subcontracted to cut cost.

Read almost everything is subcontracted work. Dell actually does very little.
You seemed to think R&D goes into laptop engineering but it is actually software integration work.
Even the designs are by Taiwan ODMS.
Almost every personal computer is built the same way so don't tell me about built quality when they have been using the same parts and design team.
And Glowing Apples is a lousy example for a point since many laptop have OEM glowing icons as well.
You guys like to assume and justify your own pockets to make yourself feel better it is ok but I feel it is just cheating yourself.
Again I like to reiterate I like Ultraportables but not overpriced ones and I certainly don't try to convince myself and justify the cost with R&D.

 

A lot of the engineering behind thin notebooks is done by Intel, nVidia, and other component manufacturers. The LCD manufacturer dictates nearly 1/2 of the thickness equation and the other half is the HD manufacturer. Apple and every other notebook brand uses the same group of suppliers. The Adamo is built by Quanta who also builds the MB Air and the two probably share half the same chips.

In the end brands are just integrators and supply chain managers and some have even given up on that end. There's service after sale, warranty work, and other value added services that make or break companies. Apple has conquered the consumer end of the market w/ superior brand management and focus on aesthetic design. As the nVidia debacle demonstrated, Macs are subject to the same shoddy QA that all brands deal w/ given they share the exact same components. It's not as though Apple calls nVidia up and says we only want the top tier tested chips...they're paying the same rate for the same product as anyone else.

The glowing Apple is one of the most common aesthetic traits of Macbooks so I mentioned it. It's consistent and sends the premium brand message. HP has followed on some models and Dell went through that whole mess of Christmas lights on some XPS models. It's no different than leather on some Dell Studio models but certainly more common.

 

That was what I said.
Except that the way they priced laptop is not always inaccordance with manufacturing cost.
They price it high because it is a Premium Model, I don't think this is justifiable for my pocket or anyone else for that matter.
And saying that you paid for service is also not really justified because at different location you have different people serving you and some may not leave you satisfied.

 

What does parts coming from the same places from other countries have anything to do with thin laptops?

If you are given the project of making a powerful laptop and the only space you were provided was a 1" thick chassis how difficult do you think this would be? If it was so cheap and all the parts came from the same place like you suggest, why are there so few thin laptops?

Whether the designs to make the laptop was done in house or subcontracted out, it still costs money. With bigger laptops, you get more horsepower for your money, but its also 1.5-2" thick and could probably crush a small child. IMO I don't see how that makes a less powerful 1" thin laptop a ripoff.

I paid $1300 for my Dell 1520 when it was released and was specced out on the higher end. My 13" MBP I paid around $1k after student and selling ipod. I found myself using the MBP way way more than I ever did with the Dell because the 13" was portable and still powerful whereas the Dell needed a forklift to move around.

I don't care if my desktop was 200lbs because its not moving, but with a laptop I'm never going back to a thick/heavy one again. Maybe for you, you don't see the extra costs involved, but for me I don't mind paying for a laptop that has a better build that is thinner/lighter.

 

lmao.

muscles are underrated around here.

wimpy men are wimpy.

 

wut?

they've "conquered" the consumer end? of the personal computer market? with their 10% market share?

*furrows brow*

 

Like them or not they have very solid margins compared to any other model. They have no penetration in business markets but I'd say they've done very well given they're working from a commodity product. You have to admit for Apple to have pricing power given they're playing w/ commodities is an impressive feat that they haven't been able to replicate on the corporate front (likely b/c IT groups can't find an ROI that justifies their price premium).

Please note that of the 7 machines I own, only one is a Mac (Mini) and I dislike it w/ a passion. I considered a MBP briefly but didn't like the mix of features they dictate so I went elsewhere.

 

Was it really necessary to use 200 font size and insult me at the same time?

You don't even know me. I've been weightlifting since high school and through college and put on 30lbs of muscle. I'm quite far from "wimpy", but I can still appreciate a small light laptop.

 

Point being Thin Laptops can be cheap.
They are made up of generic parts just like any other laptops.
Design is a 1 off cost that can be offsetted by selling in bulk without overpricing.
You mean after they finish 1 laptop they throw away the design and redesign it all over again?
It is mass production not crafted by hand...
You already said that you don't mind paying so obviously they don't mind selling at a higher price tag. I am totally ok with that just stop trying to justify to others that it is actually worth that much because the price tag clearly can be lowered.

 

Conclusion: Why charge less when you can charge more?

 

They don't throw away the design, where do you think the Dell Vostro 13 comes from? Mass production saves money, but it may or may not cover upfront costs that were needed to make the laptop, thus increasing the cost of the laptop.

I don't mind paying a higher price tag because it costs more to make such a laptop that isn't made of cheap plastic, which has no relation to me accepting a price hike. These are two different things.

I'm not trying to justify others into thinking what it's worth, only that it's not a ripoff. Although your laptop may be cheaper, its also made of plastic and weighs 7lbs.

By using your logic, desktops should cost more than laptops because desktops have much better hardware.

If thin laptops can be made cheaply, then where are they? I would say a very large majority of thin laptops are expensive.

 

I thought it was, yes. because it was funny as hell. and I don't know you, but you told me enough for me to form that opinion.

sorry, but you're the one who said that laptop was too heavy to carry. but hey...everyone has different muscle builds. for me, a 6lbs laptop in a book bag on my shoulders is nothing.

For others? It's akin to something a forklift is better designed to do. *cough*

don't be so sensitive. or...go work out.

 

By my logic a nice alumium Cooler Master Desktop casing cost $30 to buy so manufacturing cost should be much lower. Next you will be telling me how the metals are manufactured in a different way. Go figure.

 

Back to the original topic. It's not necessarily cheaper to build a thin laptop than a thick one. Let us apply some basic economics:

The world of notebooks and computer selling is monopolistic competition. Therefore the producers are allowed to sell more than market price because of product differentiation. Thinness of a laptop is an example of product differentiation. Therefore they charge above market price for the thinness. Not because it's so much harder to manufacture (though that is sometimes the case).

 

I'm going to guess because these large companies find it very easy to sell overpriced thin laptops based on peoples ignorance in what they are actually buying...

Ignorance buys..

 

It's all relative.

Well, if you went from a short 5'8 130 pounder to a still short 160 pounder, you're still a short not as scrawny but still lean guy.

Or 160->190 at a not as short 6'0.

But with that being said, people complain an awful lot about what really isn't a lot of weight even if having to be carried around most of the day.

If you're carting around less than 10-15lbs and you think it, "hurts your back," or similar, outside of a medical condition (And no, "CantPutTheForkDownitis" is not a condition), you need to build up your core strength asap.

 

Ignorance does buy, and it also promotes imperfect competition. The market for the educated buyer is much more competitive, because they always look for the best deal and research into what their buying, and don't buy because "OMG, IT CAN FIT INTO A MANILLA ENVELOPE!"

 

+1

I don't want to go into negative tones. But on slickdeals.net, everytime I post deals for thin and light notebooks, they get thumbed down. The typical slickdealer (and perhaps typical American) has the mindset of a cheapskate Walmart troll. Anytime a notebook or netbook price above $400 gets posted as a deal, it attracts trolls who whine that there was a $300 netbook posted 3 months ago. Never mind that the netbook is often missing important features like extra RAM, flash memory, and/or Nvidia Ion. When I and others explain that notebooks like Lenovo's Thinkpads are popular for thinness and excellent build construction, our voices get drowned out by the trolls.

The only exception is when a gaming notebook with a dedicated notebook for $700 or more is posted. Some people relent. But then notebook gets thumbed down by some of the trolls for being above their $300 price point.

Then there's that other crowd that whines that the Lenovo Thinkpad Edge or the Sony Y, despite their $500+ price point, don't have a dedicated GPU or an i7. Simply ridiculous.



In conclusion: It all boils down to price for the average joe/jane. Factors like excellent build construction and sometimes internal components aren't taken into account as often as they should.




Believe me, I used to be one of these ignorant fools. But as I started lugging around my 8-pound Asus gaming brick, I learned to appreciate form factor, design sophistication, and battery life (damn outlet hogs at coffeeshops!! ). But judging from the trends I'm seeing with i5/u7 CULV processors, we may one day be able to purchase notebooks with long battery lives, high performance, and thinness at below 1 inch. Laugh all you want. Technological evolutions take place at an exponential rate. Not too long ago, an ultraportable 15" notebook back in the early 2000s was so gimped up I used to rage and complain about the slow browser and word processor load times. A lot has changed. Now I'm hearing about ultraportable notebooks with switchable graphics! Even the HP Envy 15 comes with a 5-series ATI card!

 

You're completely missing the point. It's not cheap to design a notebook that crams together the CPU, the RAM, hard drive, and other peripherals without compromising build integrity and longevity. Also your premise is way off. Yes, parts are pumped out via mass production achieved under massive scale of economics. But the arrangement of the parts and the designs of some of them will be different. A 13" thin notebook may theoretically use the same RAM as an Inspiron. But the motherboard will most definitely have to be designed differently to lower weight. Each part and peripheral will most definitely have to be shrunken down to reduce weight from the typical 8-12 pounder(My Asus G50VT) to a comfortable 4-pounder (example: Sony Y).

 

You're right on all points except the part about materials durability. Aluminum is heavier and more prone to denting and not as durable as carbon fiber or magnesium. That's the primary reason Boeing's 787 now employs carbon fiber composites for the fuselage.


Admittedly Apple has higher profit margin %s on its MBP line than most other companies out there. But $1,000+ is justifiable across the entire line. I'm done with using 100% plastic bricks. If a notebook is going to use plastics, it had better have solid construction with zero flex as well as thinness and low weight to boot.

FYI-The Dell Adamo's "ridiculous" pricing reflects all the R&D and production costs that have gone into making it. Dell's mainstream laptops always have and possibly for the forseeable future will be mostly price-oriented, which is why the Adamo is an exception in some ways. Yes, Dell commands higher profit margins on the Adamo than it does on the Inspiron. But a huge majority of the price goes into the ingenious engineering that went into making it.

I had a look at one at BestBuy (Core 2 version, not the SU9300 version). I have to say that the engineers at Dell really did their homework. Some people at their design department are definitely getting pay raises for it. Needless to say, it's thin. The aluminum construction feels solid. I love how it employs a unibody aluminum design that's unique from Apple's Air. Brand and design distinction were clearly Dell's goal and both goals are achieved through the Adamo. Thinness aside, the laptop has a unique way of opening. The keyboard and screen separate partially to form an ergonomic incline. That's consumer-minded design for you!

More description on the 2nd-generation Adamo:

(More from here: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2360792,00.asp)

 

I don't believe that design anything cost substantially much nowadays, with CAD, design can be produce easily without trial and error costs and precision engineering allows production of complex designs in large volume so production and design cost is not as high as you probably can imagine.
Basically design is always a 1 off cost you only need 1 design to mass produce unless the laptop is handcrafted...
Also I don't get why people get the understanding that plastics is an inferior material.
Is it because plastic bags give a impression of weak material?
There are laptop with zero flex plastic, their degree of strength varies according to which plastic the manufacturer uses and how thin it is made.
It is a polymer more complex than Aluminium, it has strength,low weight, electrical insulation, poor heat conductivity with properties more suited for an inert casing.
By mixing composition better plastics can be produced.
IMO the best is a mix of composite materials so each can benefit from other material's properties (Just like a Thinkpad).
Pure materials are out Composites are better.

 

I'm not sure where the high price comes from regarding thin laptops, but I do believe that constructing such a laptop takes some thought into it. When building a thin laptop with strong hardware like the sony vaio Z series for example, you need some good engineers to prevent it from overheating.
Even big/heavy 15-17 inch laptops overheat (dell xps 16, hp envy, the current asus g5* & g6* series, and so on), and when cramping a lot of hardware into a small 13 inch chasis it gets so much more complicated.

 

If a case costs $30, its not nice. On top of that manufacturing a Desktop case is entirely different than a laptop. Desktops have standards, laptops do not.

Stay on topic, but if you wanna talk about muscle build, show me what you're made of, I'm in Lansing, MI.

The forklift was sarcasm. I don't have a problem carrying a heavy laptop, but if there are lighter ones, why would I carry a heavier one?

What does CAD have to do with anything? CAD is a tool, it needs a designer to make that stuff. Once you have that you have to design a chassis that can fit all of the necessary components so that it doesn't burn up. Do you think these engineers/designers work on a one time fee? Just because you have the tech, you still have to pay these people.

Are you trying to convince people that plastics aren't cheap? There's no way that plastics are better, composite or not, than aluminum, carbon fiber, or magnesium.

I definitely agree

 

Each Desktop exterior casing is manufacturered differently from another. The drive bays are the same but exterior aluminium outlook is different.
Your comment tells me you don't DIY Desktop and really examined the Desktop casing closely before.
$30 not nice?!! You haven't seen cooler master casings...

CAD means it is easily to design it and the engineers/designers work for a regular salary not paid a huge amount for every design they churn out.

I am trying to say when choosing a material properties matter more than cost. Aluminium != Good
Composites are stronger you don't sound like you ever studied material engineering.
So what if it is cheap? It is the end result that matters if you want it to look expensive why don't you use dollars notes and paste it all over because all your comments tell me you don't look at things at rational perspective you only want it to look expensive because it is good.
Next you will tell me Linux sucks because it is free.

 

Personally I prefer to small to mid-size laptops that are simple or sleek looking. The netbooks are not for me though!

I love to see how smaller laptops are getting more and more powerful, even if it's at a snail's pace. I'm sitting on way too many right now but the latest is a Vaio CW 14" with a quad core i5, 1600x1200 screen (!), and a 330m which is equivalent to the 9600m ~ I don't have the blu ray model but for $50 more it could have been! The thing isn't a gaming laptop by any stretch but it's got some decent battery and a great screen at a good price.

What I love about the Macbook is that it looks great, feels solid, great battery life, and has some decent processing power. The fact that it has optical SPDIF out is also a HUGE plus, most manufacturers cut this long ago (figures since most users wouldn't even know what it is right?) . Apple has a ways to go in terms of screen quality/resolution and video imo but osx is such a joy to use.

I've owned my share of DTR's; imo these are best for the guys who game a lot and move around a lot, otherwise you're much better off with an actual desktop. Now where was I going with this?

 

wow thats quite a bit of fud, let me see if I can break it down.

A desktop exterior has nothing to do with an interior. Desktops have standards which makes them cheaper to produce. The interior of a desktop requires little research to fit standard hardware. A laptop is different both inside and out. These two are not the same. I've built my own desktops for many years, and this is a tech oriented website, so I don't see the point of assuming I don't DIY.

CAD makes the design easier, but this has nothing to do with costs in research. The software is nothing without the designer and I agree that they aren't paid a huge sum for a single design. These people are paid a salary, so I don't understand why you assume costs are evaporated once they acquire the tech, they still have to pay these people.

So you admit plastics are cheap? End of story. This thread is about costs and plastics are cheap. You brought up Think pads in a previous post, well Thinkpads are made from a magnesium alloy, so your argument about plastics doesn't have a leg to stand on. When people are talking about plastics, they are referring to consumer laptops such as the Dell Inspiron, these laptops use cheap materials..ie PLASTIC

 

1)Desktop external casing requires design and manufacturing as well to fit. So you are just assuming the aluminium are standards and easy to produce.

2)My point is they can still lower the price of thin laptops and pay their employees.

3)Thinkpad are made up of plastic casing as well as magnesium alloy frame not pure magnesium alloy just goes to show how much you know about other laptops besides your fruity brand.

You still haven't explain the price diff between Vostro V13 and Adamo for essentially almost the same design just this example is good enough to prove my point. Dell is able to sell thin laptop for less than 1K already means it is possible to lower their prices to reasonable levels without making a loss.
OEM premium price their laptop because they believe consumers will pay for them thinking it is reasonable when it fact it is still possible to bring down the prices.

 

1) The exterior has to be designed to fit what? That doesn't make sense. A chimp can design a desktop case just as long the internals work, in which case has to fit hardware that is already standard. This requires little design/research. I'm still confused as to why you brought up Desktops, it just proves my point of laptops even more.

2)Thin laptops can be priced lower, but not newly designed ones. For example the Adamo to the Vostro 13.

3)I know that Thinkpads are both plastic and magnesium alloy, but you referred to Thinkpads as if it was 100% plastic. The cost and structural integrity of the Thinkpads comes from the alloy, not the plastic like you suggested. Shows how much you twist facts to your own personal opinions.

4)I've already explained in a previous post about the Vostro13 but you failed to reply. I suggest you reread my post.

I own a "frutiy" brand MBP, but I'm well aware of other laptop brands, which I talked about in my OP. Dell, HP, Sony, they all have expensive thin laptops. So your failed attempt at labeling me as a fanboy is not wanted here.

 

Like Desktop Laptop Motherboard have specific mount points.
They are just about the same, if you see enough laptop internals they use the same heatpipe design mounted to CPU, Northbridge and then to a thermal module.
And those ODM who codesign laptops with OEM reuse their internal design layout so your idea of research is bull.

Yea right, they priced it lower because very few were buying that, and it would look stupid if they drop the price of Adamo by more than half.

I remember I said composites are better, I didn't say pure Plastic or Aluminium.
The strength of thinkpad comes from metal encased in plastic forming a matrix like structure.
It was you who claimed pure aluminium are better because they are more expensive.

Back to the original topic it is you who claimed that Thin Laptop are worth every penny because of the "immense R&D" involved which is your opinion, what I said was the price was artificially inflated because it belongs to the "premium" category so OEMS can enjoy higher profit margin for selected models.
With so many laptops and the market and reused internal design over and over again I wonder how can you come to that conclusion, anyway you can keep your own naive opinion and continue paying premiums if you wish.
I don't care just don't start spreading it around like what you are saying is factual.

 

Um, no, you're burying yourself with this one. Open up a laptop from lenovo and open one up from Dell, the internals are designed entirely different. Just because two cars both have 4 wheels, that doesn't mean the cars are designed the same.

My argument was not whether or not it was pure metal, just that metal of any kind is more expensive than a plastic counterpart. Whether pure or composite is better should be left in another thread discussion. The point is that metal drives up costs.

I claimed that thin laptops aren't rippoffs because R&D is needed to fit standard hardware into a small chassis without it blowing up. Fitting that hardware in a smaller space is more difficult, this is called logic. There isn't a magic wand to create this.

Reused internal design? If so, where are the thin laptops? There are only a few that I listed in my OP. If these things were so easily made, why aren't they more common? Laptop internal design aren't reused exactly, if they were there would be more Laptop DIY, but there isn't.

IMO, the only way to compare any two laptops is if the hardware AND form factor were the same/similar. Too many times I see Apples to Oranges, which is the point of this thread. My laptop may not be as powerful, but its also not a 7lb brick.