Switch to mac(specific windows user)

So, I've had PC's since dos times - and still like dos quite a bit, btw

My last laptop is Asus W3J(Asus S1 before that) , but I'm starting to think about getting a new one. Initially I was looking at smth in 13.3"/14" range - e.g. Asus V2s - but it seems the video is underclocked there severely as on Asus F3sv. I also kinda hate the look of Dell and hp. So I was looking for smth with similar specs

Santa Rosa T7500+
< 2.5kg
8600 gs(gddr3)+

I'm not really interested in OS X as I have some specific uses for Windows. E.g. I have litestep shell, code in asm, use ida/softice regularly, code in VC++, use win32 native ports of unix utils... So I really doubt that os x is gonna have the necessary tools.

So my main questions is:
Can I just install Windows with Bootcamp and use it as a win-only PC? I don't really see any performance hit on the benchmarks, but still?
Is there any similar laptop I've overlooked?
Are there any other issues with MBP which I should consider before going for it(apart from price )?

 

No...if you are not using OS X it is just not worth buying. Its a hefty price to pay for just the hardware. The MBP is meant as a complete package in my opinion.

There are some people who've tried this before, see recent threads here and you will find them.

 

Wow - if there ever was a set of requirements absolutely incompatible with OS X, that's got to be it

But.. if you do like unix... well OS X unix shell is a whole different world from the ported unix tools on Windows. I used to use cygwin + OS X certainly was a huge improvement.

Then again there's no native OS X tools able to compete with VC++ tools. I use Java + Eclipse which is as good or even better than VS, but the native tool on OS X is XCode and that sucks.

That said the MBP seems to be happy to make a perfectly good Windows machine, as long as you don't mind giving up some of that precious HD space for an OS X install you'll never use. I don't think it's possible to completely wipe OS X - or is it? I am now thinking one could boot into Windows and then just format the OS X partition, no?

Keep in mind though that the MBP doesn't have a BIOS, it uses EFI. So Apple drivers somehow simulate a BIOS on top of the EFI for Windows. Vista was supposed to be able to boot from EFI but so far it isn't. EFI was going to be the newer, better replacement for BIOS.

 

Also one thing to keep in mind is that key placement is not ideal if you heavily use Windows keyboard shortcuts. No right side ctrl or alt keys, and no dedicated delete key. Plus of course no right mouse button or tap support as of yet on the trackpad (you can do a 3 finger right button click, but I find this a bit awkward).

 

um... what? It's a two finger right click.

But there is no middle click support.

Anyway, you still would have the option to use Windows or Solaris under Parallels or VMWare.

If you are going for a MB I don't think the premium is too bad. But still, I would not choose to use a Mac system as a pure windows system.

 

Thx for answers...

2SaferSephiroth
I don't want to settle for anything heavier than 2.3kg actually, but 2.45kg for the most powerful video card for 14"-15" form factor is very good actually...
Price - yes, actually it's $3.500 in here, much more than any other laptop around, but apple design is bearable while all of dells,hp, acers aren't really my cup of tea.

2orthorim
Unix is a c OS for c programmers If you want to code asm it's really simpler to stick with dos/windows, but yeah, i really need VC++ too so no alternative here.

And ported unix tools - it's not that hardcore actually - wget, grep, vim, links(lynx), not much more than that
I wonder if litestep counts? oh, well, maybe aero will do it for me, though I highly doubt it...

Well, how big is OS X installation? And giving up some of the 160gb space isn't too much. I don't really store many big things on my main hard anyway, I have externals for that.

Never heard about EFI before - gonna research it right now, but I really doubt that drivers can emulate bios, bios is smth that happens before OS even boots (actually it initiates OS booting) so performance-wise it shouldn't be any different...

2dylanemcgregor
well, I always use external mouse so I don't really care much about touchpad.
I really hate all the multimedia buttons on win keyboards(well, fn can stay ), never really used right ctrl/alt much. The dedicated delete key is a bigger problem, I've heard that fn+delete does just the same?
Do you know of a big picture with mbp keyboard layout? On small pictures it actually seems smaller than for my w3j...
upd found it - http://www.notebookreview.com/picture.asp?f=20924
hm, not too bad, fn and ctrl are also switched on w3j, so no difference here. Why move pgup/pgdn to cursor keys though? it's not like there isn't place with 15,4" screen. And where is the insert key? Kinda strange...

2hollownail
Well, I just might use OS X sometimes, but not often, that's for sure... Too bad I can't find anything else light and powerful...

 

Well, if you seriously just adore the Apple hardware, I guess the MBP will work out. But I would say we as a community don't recommend you getting Mac hardware to run Windows full-time.

I'll answer your original questions.

As of now there are some minor problems with Boot Camp, but these are just lack of drivers and will be fixed by October.

Have you looked at the ASUS V1S? Its heavier, though. I don't think it'll be under 2.5 kg.

You may want to read this post by DeepShadows : http://forum.notebookreview.com/showpost.php?p=2411859&postcount=28

 

ASUS V1s is almost 3kg(2.7kg without optical drive) and it's ddr2 video memory so it's around 20-30% slower, not an option really...

 

I'm in the same boat really, though I really want an excuse to play around with OSX. Considering all I do is play games or program C++ apps in VS05, there is little reason for me to pay out the ass for a Mac Book.

Really, I wouldn't deal with Mac Books unless you want to dive right into the Mac experience. The cost for the Mac Books simply scares me, not because of the cost (equally specced laptops cost similiar everywhere else) but because of the lack of options.

To get the 8600M GT 256mb, you need to fork over $2k+ for the upper end Mac Book Pro before it is even available. You end up with a 2.4ghz Pro Duo, 2gb RAM, and the 8600M GT 256mb for $2.5k. Compared to the 2.0ghz Pro Duo, 2gb RAM, and 8600M GT 256mb Inspiron 1520 I got for $1.1k.

Thats simply insane. I personally don't need the 2.4ghz Pro Duo, for me the 2.0ghz is the sweet spot because of the cache upgrade from the 1.8ghz version so paying an extra 1.6k is nuts.

I still wish I could dual boot my Inspiron though and play with OSX. Damn you Jobs.

 

Yes, you're right, the Macs aren't as customizable as say Dells are. But that doesn't mean the $2500 you pay for the MBP is not worth it compared to the $1100 you paid for the Inspiron 1520. If you want the most powerful computer for the lowest price, get a Dell. But there are a lot of features in the MBP and a lot of extras that justify its cost. And design and build quality and materials used cost money as well.

Anyways, remember the MBP right now comes with Student Discount. That means its $2300 + free iPod + free printer. Or if you don't qualify for a Student Discount its available for $2350 at MacMall.

 

Well, first of all, Dell's aren't cheap in here, I can get Dell Inspiron 1520 for $1.5k, dell is DDR2(20-30% slower), quality of dell is really lacking as far as I know...

The 2.4ghz is actually good as I use pcsx2(ps2 emulator) and it's very cpu-intensive...

All things considered though, MBP isn't $2.5k here, it's $3.2k so it's quite insane really, but I can afford it now so I wanted to get the best

So I'm comparing with ASUS G1s mostly - which is $2.2k...

2Sam
Lucky you, with all your student discounts and stuff I'm a student but we don't have anything like that in Russia, alas...

 

Yeah, Mac Books are pretty slick. Even slicker when Black but thats an extra $200. The 17 inch MBP would be a dream computer if I wasn't on a budget.

I do have to say, the Inspiron isn't that shabby design wise. It isn't a Mac Book, but it looks and feels pretty nice.

One thing I've always wondered was how the heat and noise of a Mac Book was? I had a crazy old HP that sounded like it had a jet engine inside, and it damn near melted my testicles off. The Inspiron seems pretty good on heat and noise though.

 

The MacBooks (and MacBook Pros) do get hot, but they are extremely quiet. But if you use a free third party app to control fan speeds, you can hit a sweet spot where its not too hot and you can still barely hear the fans (unless its a dead quiet room).

But yeah, the Macs do get hot, but they're extremely quiet.

 

Last I checked it is two fingers on the touchpad and a third to click the mouse button. Two finger tapping brings up the context menu in OS X, but this doesn't work in XP since there is still no taps. Hopefully this will be addressed in a later version of Bootcamp.

 

Ok, I've been checking out other threads and this one post has created a doubt in me

Has it been addressed already in latest bootcamp or do you think it's going to be addressed in final version?

is it really such a time hit for windows?

I don't really much care about vista, and masterchef seems to be talking about it mostly. Do these problems occur in win xp too?

is there anyone who uses visual studio extensively on their mbp? How is your experience so far? Can you use it in parallels/vmware? Feeling as windows coding is one the main things I do I wonder if going for a mbp may create some problems.

I really like the specs though, can't find it anywhere else...

 

First of all, yes the Macs run hotter in Windows, but its not a big big deal. Nothing is damaged by it running hotter (maybe your jeans ). The Core 2 Duo chips can withstand over 100 C without being damaged.

No, currently this "issue" has not been addressed in the latest version of Boot Camp, but this can be changed in the future.

I don't know if it actually drops to 2 hours, but right now its known that the Macs' battery doesn't last as long in Windows as it does on OS X. Masterchef says 2 hours, but I've heard others say 3:30, so yeah, I guess it varies.

Yes, Visual Basic runs fine under Parallels or VMware Fusion. Parallels has better graphics support though, for the graphics intensive tasks that you may use.

 

Basically there is no point in making the switch unless you want OSX, if you don't want OSX its a huge waste of money to change to a Mac, you may as well spend that money on a high quality laptop from the likes of Sony, Toshiba and Asus.

Running a version of windows via boot camp is never intended to be a computing solution on a Mac, its for those of us who are making the switch but aren't financially up to purchasing all the new software yet (for example) OR for those of us who want to play 2 or 3 games that don't work on Mac OSX. Boot camp was never intended to turn a Apple computer into a windows computer permanently.

 

Well said, jsf_enthusiast. I think this speaks for most of us here at the Apple forum.

 

That's exactly the problem, I can't get such specs for even the same amount of money from Sony, Toshiba, Asus, etc...

 

Ok, presuming I'm willing to give os x a try, I've tried numerous os's, one more wouldn't hurt
But, there are still some things I will want to stay

1) Is there litestep for Mac OS X? Why litestep, let me explain...
That's because all I need from wm is taskbar and tray - that's it, no menus, shortcuts, etc...
I use winConsole instead of it - basically it's just a console one-liner at the top of the screen appearing by a keyboard shortcut which accepts aliases. E.g. I use "VC" to launch VC++, i use "far" to launch far, etc... Everything is in distance of 1 second of typing, I wouldn't exchange this type of functionality for anything...

2) well, vim is available on macos, so no problems here, I'm pretty sure about other unix tools...
apart from that I need far(e.g. Norton Commander equivalent)...
Are there console apps for Mac OS X anyway?

All these problems can be solved if I can run win apps absolutely seamlessly in mac os x, can I? e.g. run far with parallels, use different WM to remove all unnecesary functionality, and use winconsole(or equiv) at the same time...

Because, if Mac OS X allows to do such things - why do I need windows? =)
Here is an example of what I want

 

It is possible to run Windows on a Intel Mac WITHOUT a Mac OSX partition. I've done it just to see if I could. First you'll want to install bootcamp in OS X so you can create the Windows driver disk, though I have seen torrents of them available on isohunt. First problem you'll see is Windows will complain that it can't be installed on a GPT disk. Fix this by using the MS command line utility diskpart, and issuing the command "convert mbr". I had tried converting the disk to a MBR disk via diskutil when booting off the OS X install CDs, but that didn't work for me. After the HD has been converted, you can install Windows just like on any other PC. Since the first versions of bootcamp, Apple's EFI firmware includes backwards compatability with OS's that are only BIOS aware. The system will boot to Windows even if its the only OS on the drive.

Agree with other posters in this thread, getting a Mac is quite expensive if you're only going to use it for Windows. Though, it is some dead sexy hardware IMHO. Only problem I forsee is if there are any future firmware updates, you'd either have to wipe the drive and get OS X back on there, or install OS X on an external(or perhaps internal if we aren't talking about a notebook) bootable drive. Don't know if you can install firmware updates from the OS X install CD's boot environment.

 

Hm, discovered Quicksilver right now - seems like I found a powerful replacement for winConsole.

One more thing why I think I should try os x - I'm a gtd follower I've been searching long for some useful gtd app on Win, no luck. On Mac there is iGTD

 

Btw, how do you feel comparing it with your W3J (I have w3j right now )?
In terms of heat/noise, gaming capabilities(on win?), etc...

 

The NVidia 8600M GT 256mb KILLS the ATI x1600. No contest. Well I'm sure the extra gig of system ram and the boost in proc speed from 1.86ghz to 2.4ghz, as well as the FSB increase helps to. It does get hotter playing games then the W3J. Noise levels on both are similar with the fans on both on full blast. However, if you're right handed like me using an external mouse, your hand won't get baked with the MBP unlike the W3J. One of my only complaints about the W3J is the exhaust venting out the right side.

I use a little passive notebook cooler/table thing so the MBP isn't sitting directly on my lap, and allows for airflow under the system. Used it for the W3J as well.

 

Yes, my right hand has the same problems with w3j

Well, seems like I've decided on my new laptop.

Bootcamp(for games) +
OS X(Quicksilver, iGTD, FireFox, Audim, gvim, wget, java) + VMWare Fusion(Far, VS2005, FineReader). I still need to find the replacement for LiteStep - i don't need dock/desktop at all. Can I turn this off in os x?

I would really like it to look like on my snapshot on the previous page

 

Never tried running different window managers in OS X, but maybe these could point you in the right direction?

http://sourceforge.net/projects/interfacewm/ see the OS's its for on that page:

Operating System: All BSD Platforms (FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD/ Apple Mac OS X), All POSIX (Linux/BSD/UNIX-like OSes), Linux

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/x11/

Let us know how it goes!

 

To the OP: it's best to get a physical Windows PC even if you don't totally adore the aesthetics of what is out there. Using a physical Windows PC will offer full compatibility with certain ports that you mentioned as well as full support of the OEM.
Apple offered the ability to install Windows on the Mac to help bridge gaps for people that want to use OS X but still have Windows applications that they can't give up.
Intel Macintosh computers are not "Install Your Own OS" type machines which is why the keyboard is still a Mac keyboard and the Firewire ports are powered buses that can only be used in OS X.

You'll have to ask yourself are aesthetics really so important that you are willing to do workarounds and give up hard drive space and spend more money installing an OS that already comes pre-installed on physical Windows PC's?
One note, any issues that you have regarding Windows Apple will not support. They only support the Bootcamp utility but once you are in Windows the Apple retail stores or the customer service won't help.
See it's not worth the trouble if you are going to use a Macintosh computer as a full time Windows machine.

This forum is great because the people here are not haters but rather offer a fair recommendation to anyone switching to the Mac. We would love to see more people switching to the Mac OS X platform. Since you are not really "switching" to the Mac it's not a recommended option.

As time goes by the workarounds and lack of Apple support will overshadow the pretty computer hardware.

 

It's not really aethestics only (well, apart from T61p which I won't be able to stomach, as well as any other lenovo/ibm laptop)

it's about the whole hardware(8600gt gddr3 with < 2.5kg)... Hard drive space isn't a problem, I don't store much on my drive, I already own win xp sp2 so I don't really need to buy it again

About support - ahem, do I really look like someone(with the uses I specified) who will be getting software support from apple? I've never used any support actually - thankfully, for the quirky issues there are forums, and for the standard issues(which are the only ones the support can help with) there is google and brains

Moreover, I'm not a win-only fanatic, I'm only interested in some of the windows-specific apps. And I see that I can get them with VMWare Fusion. I'm pretty excited with Quicksilver and iGTD already so there is some merit in trying it out.

As Jowie has pointed out with his link Mac OS X is x11-compatible(somewhat) so I'm pretty sure I can build litestep on my own if worst comes to worst. But it's not like I'm a fan of litestep - it's just one of the shells on win which provides the functionality I need. And I just need to get rid of dock/desktop(well, maybe when I really use OS X I'll see it differently, but desktop definitely needs to go ...

 

Hrm, well although GTD does seem to have a rather cult following in the Apple community (go figure, every other calendar/organizer/planning/journaler/task manager/you-name-it for OSX has a GTD plugin or add-on or FAQ or something), there actually are a few programs on the Windows side too. Check out this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_GTD_software

 

Well, it looks like you've closed yourself. Good choice, get the Apple hardware because you are basically trying to ignore that it's a Mac. How can you get rid of the OS X desktop? That's the system. Just get it over with a buy what you want. Sounds like you are happier coming up with reasons to get it regardless of what anyone recommends or disagrees so I will agree with you and bring this to a close.

 

Hm, I've always thought that the system is the api mostly, not the gui? And i'm ok with expose, i just don't like the whole idea of a desktop with shortcuts

Yeah, might be that, though I personally changed my opinion of using it as a win-only pc to using it as a tweaked mac os (even though it wouldn't really look like a mac by the time I'm through with it ) and vmware fusion. At least, it sounds kinda fun

And I will also have the option of running both mac os and win apps - the more freedom, the better

 

Sounds good, Zedr0n. Looks like you're set on a MBP. Enjoy it!

 

This entire conversation is hilarious.

The OP comes here looking for advice on whether he should buy a Mac, or not. A bunch of Mac users give him a host of reasons not to buy the Mac. The OP concludes that a Mac is the best choice, ignoring all of the advice given.

Looks, to me, like the OP's mind was made up before this thread was even created, and he assumed that posters in a Mac forum would back him up. You came to the wrong forum, my friend.

I can't wait for the next thread from this guy complaining that the Mac doesn't do what he wants it to, and he wants to return it, but doesn't think he should have to pay the restocking fee.

Good stuff.

 

Well, for once, if it doesn't do what I want it to, I can always make it win-only The hardware is there, so I kinda doubt I'd have that much problems with it anyway.

And we can't return things here actually, so small chance of that
But if you enjoy this one so much I'll try to create such a thread just for you so that you don't get disappointed

P.S. There is nothing like a small bit of opposition to get your mind working in the right direction

 

Your location is yet another check mark against buying a Mac.

Good luck, though. You're going to need it.

 

OK, seems like I don't really need litestep.

menushade + spirited away + quicksilver + turn hiding on for dock + hide everything on desktop (courtesy of macbreak #33)

Heh, gotta watch more macbreaks

 

Hmmm... does anyone thingk Windows Vista SP1 will sport this feature? It would be AMAZING on the MBP.

 

Heh, yeah and we can slipstream the apple drivers from bootcamp into vista distro then And it'll become just another top-notch pc laptop

P.S. It's a joke actually, right now I'm very excited to try out mac os x

 

Good luck.

 

Let me tell you one thing you won't be able to do anything about. If you think running Windows on a Mac will be the same as it is on a physical PC you are dead wrong. Just ask anyone on this forum that runs Windows via Bootcamp including myself. Even if you max out the ram on your Mac the total amount will never be recognized on the Windows side. Only OS X will recognize your maxed out ram config.

One last note, you seemed pretty nice and humble in the beginning but in the last couple of threads you have become a bit hostile and you are trying to annoy people and you are becoming a troll.
If Mac OS X is not your thing then stay on the Windows forum because there's no room here for irate trolling. Learn to be nice and accept what people say here since it was you who asked for the help.

None of us have anything to gain by telling you to either buy a Mac or a Windows machine so if we are recommending against what you have already decided before you started your original thread it's only because we are recommending a viable solution.

What we are trying to help you avoid is buying a Mac and hoping it can really be a Windows PC and then as I mentioned earlier come back to the forum and complain that the Windows side won't recognize all of your existing ram and then we have another thread.

In the end the dead sexy hardware is useless if your ram can't be utilized amongst other things that I have not mentioned and there are more annoyances.
Try to be nice and understand what we are saying but there's no need to post here if you are gonna start trolling.

 

2hldan

I'm sorry that you feel that way...

Concerning the ram - it's not the issue of win vs mac, it's just that only x64 win oses understand 4gb of ram, am I wrong here?

and i promise I won't be coming back to complain about how I don't like mac os(if i really don't), I will only feel more miserable when people will start telling me that they've warned me before

 

Yes. 64-bit OSes can recognize 4 GB of RAM, 32-bit cannot. Why hldan says this is because Boot Camp currently does not officially support 64-bit Windows.

 

well, I've bought my mbp

And the funniest thing is that I've become a complete switcher so far
It's my 4th day and I haven't even installed bootcamp yet...

I've spent my time installing stuff though - Quicksilver, Adium, Fink, xcode, iTerm, gvim, VLC, muCommander, Growl, etc...
The thing I like most that the default mac os applications satisfy my needs mostly - e.g. Safari with Saft or Apple Mail, not even mentioning xcode...

And it was actually easier to install TeX on Mac OS(with MacTeX) than on my win pc =)

I also found out I'm a fan of BSD I can't decide between mc and muCommander yet...

I really like mac os font smoothing - by reading the threads I would have thought it was worse - a matter of taste I guess...

 

im glad u like it

 

I hope it works out for you.

 

Sounds great, Zedr0n! Congrats and enjoy your new MBP .