OK you guys.. everyone with MBP batt issues....

I noticed shortly after getting my MBP in July 06 that the battery life seemed to be an issue. Brand new, I easily got 3 hours... but after only a couple months, I noticed that the batt meter started only charging up to 99%. I then started noticing little things like, the computer would shut down with 6% life left, then 10%, then it started getting progressively worse. All within a few months.

I have religiously cycled this batter for the first several months I owned this laptop, but when I realized it wasn't really doing any good, resigned myself to knowing that the battery was going to be an issue, and quick.

Well, now, just over a year out, my battery dies after about 10 minutes. This is ridiculous, in my opinion. I've only had 130 complete charge cycles on this machine and I have heard that the Mac OS keeps a cumulative record of charges/discharges to do a complete charge cycle count, rather than just the number of times it's been plugged in vs. AC power.

I never had this issue with my eMachines notebook battery. I had MANY MANY issues with my machine, which is why I switched.. but i want to know why Apple would make such an amazing machine with such a crappy battery life.

Yes, I downloaded the battery updates and I keep my OS updated.

Will Apple be interested in replacing my battery, or am I SOL and needing to purchase a couple?

And will this happen to my iPod? My iPod car system's dock keeps the iPod charged while driving. I don't want to screw the battery in my iPod...


I would like to hear about your battery experiences. I have a MacBook Pro, purchased in July 2006. Thanks for any insight.

 

I'm not sure if you know this, but lithium batteries like to be kept topped off. Every time you run it down completely it hurts the battery more than if you (for example) allowed it to run down 10% 10 times.

 

I've never read that before. You must run down LI-ion batteries to recalibrate them after numurous "short" cycles. But I've never read any litterature that says, damage will occur from constant discharging and recharging UNLESS you discharge it to 0% and leave it in that state for an extended period. Most batteries hate this infact. Anyhow,

I didn't get that from the OP's statement. Certainly a 10 minute run time is unacceptable with only 130 cycles..it should last into 300. But you should not have waited since it was surely a problem before your warranty ran out. I would hope you are able to talk to a kind soul at Apple, and they show mercy. However, at this point they aren't obligated to replace it unless it's on a recall list.

 

I bought extended applecare so that's not an issue... and I have also not read anything about keeping lithium batts topped off. In fact, that is exactly what I do and is why I only have 130 complete charge cycles. I rarely run the batteries down all the way which is leading me to believe that li-ion is almost as bad as ni-cad if they are not properly engineered.

I think I'll be calling apple to see what they can do for me. I just wanted to know if anyone else was experiencing poor battery life the same as I am.

Thanks for your input.

 

I'm not sure about AppleCare's battery coverage. Certainly what you've described seems like a defective battery to me, but Apple may see it another way; especially since you've used the battery for over a year. You should contact AppleCare ASAP to find out for sure.

AppleCare Protection Plan Terms and Conditions (PDF)

 

That sounds like a defect then.

Jimy, the recalibration thing is for Apple's power management software, but the battery itself, as with any lithium battery, is more damaged the more you let it run down.

 

Apple care doesn't cover your battery.. it has a one year warranty unfortunately.

@wolfpup
Yes, I'm aware of apples power management. Again I've never read that lithium batteries could be damaged in this way. Many batteries require full discharge because they have "memory", but Lithium-ion doesn't suffer consequences from less than a full discharge, so I have a hard time swallowing it. Do you have any links to information that supports this theory?

The only information I've found says what I stated above.. you shouldn't discharge the battery and leave it at 0% for extended periods of time. Also, some lithiums have a "smart" shutoff, which I must believe apple has in theirs. It stores a reserve that guards from permanent damage. Lithiums can withstand sitting at this reserve for some time and not suffer a "deep discharge". That's basically the information I've read. I'm surprised that general use would be considered abuse.

 

It's pretty common knowledge, and there are quite a few sites that give the technical reasons for it, though I don't remember the addresses (I'm sure someone will chime in). That Battery University site mentions it, but doesn't really get into it.

Lithium batteries are basically the exact opposite of NiCd or NiMH batteries as those last longest if you completely discharge them every time, while lithium batteries last longest (in use) if you keep them topped off (technically they last longest if you leave them at about 40% and stick them in a closet, but...)

 

From a standpoint on long term storage, I understand there's a difference. But can someone really expect a li-on battery to severly degrade or slightly degrade from constant discharge? As a matter of, more efficient use.. I believe there must be advantages to one type of battery over another. What I don't understand is how this could explain the death of a battery designed for a laptop that has a high likelihood to be completely discharged on most of it's cycles. Why would they use them? I've talked with someone about this who knows a lot about battery technology, and he believes much of this concern on cycles to be over-worrying (simply put). There are many "theories" on how to treat batteries (of various types), and not all of them agree. But if you do find those links, please share - jimy

 

Guidelines for prolonging Li-ion battery life

Unlike Ni-Cd batteries, lithium-ion batteries should be charged early and often. However, if they are not used for a long time, they should be brought to a charge level of around 40% - 60%. Lithium-ion batteries should never be "deep-cycled" like Ni-Cd batteries.[7]

Lithium-ion batteries should never be depleted to below their minimum voltage, 2.4v to 3.0v.

Li-ion batteries should be kept cool. Ideally they are stored in a refrigerator. Aging will take its toll much faster at high temperatures. The high temperatures found in cars cause lithium-ion batteries to degrade rapidly.

According to one book,[12] lithium-ion batteries should not be frozen (should not be stored below -40 °C), because most lithium-ion battery electrolytes freeze at approximately −40 °C (this is much colder than the lowest temperature reached by household freezers, however).

Li-ion batteries should be bought only when needed, because the aging process begins as soon as the battery is manufactured.[7]

When using a notebook computer running from fixed line power over extended periods, the battery should be removed[1], and stored in a cool place so that it is not affected by the heat produced by the computer.

Courtesy Wikipedia

 

Again, I already noted in my first post, they shouldn't be "deep discharged", but these batteries should have a protection against that. So it isn't an issue. My question is, how does it effect the battery life to use it within it's "safe" limits, severly, or slightly?

 

A unique drawback of the Li-ion battery is that its life span is dependent upon aging from time of manufacturing (shelf life) regardless of whether it was charged, and not just on the number of charge/discharge cycles. So an older battery will not last as long as a new battery due solely to its age, unlike other batteries. This drawback is not widely publicised.[6]

From Wikipedia, it seems like 2 things kill Li-ion batteries. Age and heat. It could be possible that since the MBP gets so hot, GVJ fried one. Its more probable that it was defective in the first place.

 

There are. Every type of rechargeable battery has advantages and disadvantages. Lithium batteries are really nice in a lot of ways (greater power density, no memory effect), but they have drawbacks too (age rapidly even when not in use, shouldn't be deeply discharged, also more dangerous than NiMH).

Basically you just need to keep lithium batteries topped off-plug in your iPod or cell phone when possible. And do the reverse for other battery types. Don't charge them until they're completely dead.

 

I'm assuming you're using "deep discharge" in the technical sense, that completely kills lithium batteries. It's not possible to do that, as lithium batteries HAVE to have electronics to cut them off before they reach that point.

In the normal sense of the word, allowing your battery to discharge to, say 40% damages it more than allowing it to discharge to 10% 6 times. You get more total run time out of a lithium battery by recharging it whenever possible. And it's not possible to overcharge a lithium battery, so for most devices you should plug them in if they've been used at all. I don't remember numbers off the top of my head, but the difference is pretty huge, like the difference in getting maybe 300 total charge cycles versus 1000+ total charge cycles. That kind of thing.

Laptops are a little different just in that they generate so much heat that the laptop itself can degrade the battery. Unfortunately you can't run a Macbook Pro without the battery since that will cause the system to underclock to 1GHz.

 

I hear what you're saying, but this is what I'm trying to quantify. How much are you hurting the battery? Has anyone done research on this? is there a number? I'm sure many users do this to their MBP. Should they not expect 300 cycles then and would that be normal? Should it be under warranty? That was all. anyhow, questions over.

 

It probably varies by battery, but it would be more like you could get 800, 1000, 1500... charges out of a battery rather than 200-300 if you treat it well.

 

Sounds like your issues would be covered by this:
http://www.apple.com/support/macbook_macbookpro/batteryupdate/

So you're not out of luck.

 

By recharging over and over? Significantly less than the mere fact that the battery has been produced. As soon as it is made it starts dying. Put heat on it and it dies even faster.

But in the end i would expect Li-ion batteries to last 3+ years, i have a laptop right now with a Li-ion battery that has lasted 3 years and it is equipped with a P4, talk about heat!

 

THAT'S IT! real concrete facts.. +1

 

heh.. and my MBP running at 60 degrees C probably isn't helping at all. Hmm. But if I take out the battery, then the occasional bumps and yanks that occasionally disconnect the magsafe connector will make the machine shut down instead of just switching from ac to batt to ac.

I'm not sure that there is a good solution for this.

And anyway, my battery hardly ever gets discharged now because I can't run my machine on battery as I only get about 10 minutes now.

Ugh.

Guess I'll call Apple and see if they'll replace it, as it's defective, not worn out.

 

Georgine, that is not normal at all. The battery should in no way last only about ten minutes. Take it to the Apple Store, it is most definitely a defect.

 

Update: I *finally* called Apple just now and they are sending me a new battery. They said it sure sounds defective to them. So no problems - they will ship it DHL and give me a shipping label to send it back. No charge.

I do have extended Applecare, though the MacBook Pro battery update might have helped as well.

Just wanted to let you know.

Oh, and they have cool hold music. At least, they did tonight.

 

Nice! That sounded painless as these things go

 

Haha, funny about the hold music, Georgine . Good to hear your problem is solved!

 

awesome. new batt is already at 2.5 hours and reading 1.5 hours left. i am so pleased!

 

Awesome, Georgine!

 

I just caught this thread. The same thing happened to me as GeorgineVJ with my 6-cell Dell battery. Dell's do not have a cycle counting routine or it's not implemented, after one year your SOL. I applaud Apple stepping up to address the shortfalls of Li-Ion batteries.