Macs sometimes double the price of eq. PC..

I was under the impression that the gap was narrowing.

http://blogs.chron.com/techblog/archives/2008/08/the_price_difference_between_macs_and_pcs_wid.html

 

Hopefully this thread remains civil unlike the last one that was closed . If you compare retail prices for like hardware (a little harder to do since Apple has a small lineup) and do not opt for Apple upgrades, prices end up being pretty similar. Although if your throw sales and dell coupon codes into the mix, Apple will lag well behind in bang per buck at the hardware level. However, the bottom line is, that the software and support included with Mac hardware justifies the price for many Apple users. When Apple reveals their new hardware lineup, the price difference should decrease. Apple doesn't lower their prices like most PC hardware retailers, but rather periodically refreshes their hardware at the same price points.

-edit

I see the article bases many of its arguments on average selling price of hardware. This isn't really fair since Apple isn't concerned with the low end nearly as much like company's like Dell. They are happy selling their hardware to a more niche group and market their hardware as "premium."

 

My brother got a M50VM based on the new Montevina with a 2.53GHz C2D and a 9600GS for less than $1500. Great value. But he's having trouble getting used to Vista coming from XP. And my MBP is noticably thinner, 1" less wide, and almost 1" less deep plus is 20% lighter. So his laptop looks quite large in comparison to mine even though it's not the biggest 15.4" PC laptop. Component-wise it's great value, but there are a lot of other valuable measures. Ignoring OS comparisons, the MBP's design must be worth something, although it's hard to assign a value. Also, the M50VM has automatic backlight control, but it's basically unusable compared to how it's done on the MBP.

 

Ok, I'm doing this just for fun, since I'm curious.
Mind you, this doesn't take into account OSX or apple's support that you get with a mac product, or build quality.
Configuring nearly identical machines (no coupons), this is what I came up with:

Both are configured with a 2.4ghz Core 2 Duo (800MHz FSB), 2GB RAM, 160GB HDD, 1280x800 monitor, integrated webcam, 8x DVD-RW, bluetooth and wifi, etc.
Inspiron 1525 $974.
White Macbook $1299.

Interesting.

Although that might not be a good comparison, given the 1525 has a 15.4 inch monitor (but I was trying to think like a student, given the cheaper option of a 1525 compared to a comparably spec'd macbook).
I'll try an M1330.
Ok, a similiarly spec'd M1330 came out to $1094. So not a whole lot of difference. Still, $205 could be a lot for those on a tight budget.

Here's one more. Macbook Pro 15 inch vs. XPS M1530.
Both have a 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo (800MHz FSB), 1440x900 monitor, 2GB RAM, geforce 8600GT 256MB, although I configured the Dell with a 250GB HDD, because 200GB wasn't available (more expensive option) vs. mbp's 200GB, and both with bluetooth.
XPS M1530 $1394.
Macbook Pro $1999.
So they're definitely not double the price like the OP said, but there's a healthy gap between these two than with macbook vs. inspiron.

Fixed.

 

Talin, there's an edit button, y'know. As for the topic... well yes. Competitions pricing doesn't matter. Macs are the only PCs that ship with OS X, so really, Apple can charge whatever the hell they want They don't follow the same rules because they have a trump card.

 

I also think you can find comparable HP and Dells that will be cheaper, but the examples they used were horrible. An iMac with dedicated video card, web cam, and a larger screen against a dell desktop with integrated graphics, no webcam, and a smaller screen..

 

Their trump card holds no water for me, cause I use linux.
However, if they do indeed refresh the macbooks/pros soon, I will seriously consider getting one.

 

Yep... bad comparison... you really gotta compare even spec'd systems for this. And while we're at it: if you buy a generic no-name PC with the same hardware you can still save a lot of cash rather than going with Dell, HP, etc.

Well, trump card for buyers who want/need OS X.

Also it's worth noting that Apple likes putting some nifty features in their stuff, like gesture trackpad controls, ambient light sensors, actual good speakers, and super small size for notebooks of their class (MBP) and 4+ hours of battery life on a 17" is also insane!

 

Another thing to note, is that at least in notebooks, in many cases PC makers use lower-end CPUs. Like the HP DV2946NR mentioned in the comparison has a 2GHz T5750 Core 2 Duo which sounds fairly reasonable. But, it's actually running on a 667MHz FSB with only 2MB of L2 cache. Most users would just see 2GHz and not care about the more detailed spec, which is precisely why Intel makes these low-end cut-down models and why PC makers always use them. Apple at least consistently uses Intel's mainstream product line and not the cut down Txx50 stuff, but of course that adds cost.

Another point is that I doubt most Windows laptops can get the same battery life as Apple laptops even if they are similarly specced.

And of course, in comparison to the MBP, Apple consistently uses quality GDDR3 memory with their discrete graphics cards. Most PC laptops tend to use DDR2 which can't clock as high and is higher power consumption, which is why just comparing GPUs may not be accurate. Like my brother's M50VM with the 9600GS still uses DDR2, which means that my old X1600 in my MBP with GDDR3 actually has more memory bandwidth than his new card.

 

Also forgot to mention you get a free iPod Touch... now that I think about it, the premium they charge isn't as high as everyone's making it out to be!

 

The XPS M1530 with 2.4GHZ C2D, 1440x900 LCD, 4GB RAM, 8600mGT 256mb, 320GB HDD is $1349 or $1499 with LED backlit screen or 1449 for the 1920x1200 screen.

But that's the Canadian site. The base model for the MBP is $2099.

Lets just hope they drop the price when new ones come out in Sept (hopefully).

 

That's a little apples to oranges. The MBP is a thin and light "professional" model, while the XPS is an above average desktop replacement. I think a more fair comparison is the MBP vs the newly released latitude E6500

Latitude E6500

Latitude E6500 Qty 1
Intel® Core™ 2 Duo P8600 (2.40GHz, 3M L2 Cache, 1066MHz FSB), Genuine Windows Vista® Business 64-BIT SP1, With media Unit Price $1,821.00
Catalog Number: 5 MLB1355
Module Description Show Details
Latitude E6500 Intel® Core™ 2 Duo P8600 (2.40GHz, 3M L2 Cache, 1066MHz FSB)
Operating Systems Genuine Windows Vista® Business 64-BIT SP1, With media
Memory 2.0GB, DDR2-800 SDRAM, 2 DIMMS
Internal Keyboard Internal English Keyboard
Graphics NVIDIA Quadro NVS 160M
Primary Storage 160GB Hard Drive, 7200RPM with Free Fall Sensor
Fingerprint Reader Options No Fingerprint Reader
LCDs 15.4” UltraSharp™ Wide WXGA+ (1440x900) LED Display-Brushed Metal Black
AC Adapter 90W A/C Adapter (3-pin)
Primary Optical Device 8X DVD+/-RW w/Roxio and Cyberlink Power DVD™
Camera / Microphone Digital Microphone
Wireless LAN (802.11) Intel® WiFi Link 5100 802.11a/g/n Draft Mini Card
Systems Management No Intel vPro™ Technology’s advanced management features
System Documentation No System Documenation
Primary Battery 9 Cell Battery
Hardware Support Services 3 Year Basic Limited Warranty and 3 Year NBD Onsite Service
Installation Services No Onsite System Setup
Color Options Brushed Metal Black
LCDs Black Wide Screen WXGA+ LCD Panel w/ Microphone only
Processor Branding Intel Centrino 2 Core Duo Processor
OS Labels Vista Premium Label
TOTAL:$1,821.00

In the MBP's favor is the 8600gt vs the Quadro NVS 160M and the inclusion of the iLife software suite, iSight cam, also I think I forgot to add blue tooth to the Dell. In the Dell's favor is a 3 year warranty vs a 1 year warranty. Hard drive is a draw. The MBP refresh is also just around the corner and Apple may one up Dell in cost vs specs for a while. I also think port selection is in the MBP's favor. You get an optical audio out, dual-link dvi, firewire 400, and firewire 800. The dell has an esata port and two extra usb ports over the MBP

 

Should also make sure you include Bluetooth. Often Windows laptops don't include it.

Other smaller details include Macs having fewer USB ports, but gaining Firewire 400 and 800 ports. And Windows laptops with Firewire ports usually use the 4-pin type, unlike the 6-pin Firewire port that Apple always uses that include power pins so portable hard drives can be bus-powered.

And it's hard to tell how much a wider touchpad is worth, cost is not much, but usability is extremely valuable. It might be a personal thing, but I've found nearly all Windows laptops have too cramped a touthpad, especially if they have to waste room on dedicated vertical and horizontal scroll bars. Even without multitouch gestures, two finger scrolling (vertical, horizontal, diagonal) is eminently more useful. And I don't believe Windows laptops support diagonal scrolling.

 

So 5.4 lbs is lightweight, while 5.78 lbs is a 'desktop' replacement? Ah k....I dont think a MBP should get as hot as it does to still be considered a 'professional' model. I would say these two are VERY similar for comparison's sake. Portable, powerful notebooks that are light enough to bring along for travel.

 

Your certainly entitled to your opinion but according to Apple, their Pro line is their professional lineup and according to Dell, their latitude and precision lines are their professional lineup. I just thought it would be fair to compare like to like based on the manufacturers classifications.

 

A lot of the times it's not. Better to compare hardware to hardware, rather than useless "classifications."

 

While Apple only has about 8% of the PC market share, it has a 60% market share of laptops over $1000 and a 70% market share of all PCs over $1000

That means the majority of people spending more than $1000 on a PC pick Apples over all other brands put together.

Determining exactly what the value proposition is can be the subject of much debate. But clearly the value proposition IS there for most folks choosing machines at the mid or premium level.

At one point I owned a $3000 Sony SZ and a $1500 Black Macbook. Sony makes a great premium notebook. But while the two machines had similar hardware specs, the Macbook outperformed the Sony by a considerable margin in everyday use. "Specs" are definitely not the be all-end all - particularly the superficial specs published for most machines.

The quality of the components, the design of the boards, the firmware, the OS, and the software have a great deal to do with performance. They also have a lot to do with everyday user experience.

While specs and pricing are a good starting point in comparing machines, you also have to look at reviews, performance tests, user experiences, and ultimately your own experience to predict how a purchase might work out.

 

The reason I posted this was it was one of the things they were talking about on the Diggnation podcast that I listened to today.

Anyways, this was what I was referring to when I said sometimes double.

"On Saturday, Aug. 2, I got to wondering about Mac versus Windows PC pricing after seeing two HP notebooks on sale at the local Target. One of them, a 14-inch model, the HP DV2946NR, sold for $699.99 and packed 4GB of memory and a 320GB hard drive. Capacity for both features is twice that of the $1,299 MacBook--and shared graphics is 356MB compared with a meager 144MB for the MacBook"

And I know that the price for the HP was a sale price and that the CPU is not as good, but how much added cost is a better CPU worth? $600? I was just pointing out that it doesn't take a lot of shopping around to find a Windows laptop with much better specs for a lot cheaper.. Kevin Rose was arguing that the "sexy" factor alone more then made up for the price. LOL

 

Nearly every PC and laptop Apple sells is over $1000. The truth is most people buy PCs and laptops that are under $1000; I still see apple computers as a niche market (A very compelling one).

Maybe your Macbook as outperforming your Sony because the Sony was bogged down with junk, as is the case with many PCs?

As for the quality of components, Mac's and PCs are pretty close... MBPs still have the same defective video card as similar PCs. The same quality processors. HDD and memory are the same brands you have in PCs. I'd say the fit and finish of of Apple products is superior to most PC manufacturers though. Visual presentation is pretty good as well.

IMO a Thinkpad loaded with Linux would pretty much equal a Mac in terms of quality, software, customer service, and minus the appealing visuals factor (unless you like the no nonsense look of the Thinkpad).

 

Okay, so? What's the big freaking deal?

I don't get people some times. To the OP: Okay you found an article, and what did you think? Posting it here would OPEN OUR EYES somehow?

Then we'd all go: "OMFGORZORZ W3 haev bin BLINNDDD!!" ??

Yes, we all know it's expensive. And no, no other Dell, Acer, Asus can compare even if the specs are close, or even better. Apple has the design, the build quality, the attention to details, the style etc which all of us here on the Apple forums like.

So stop bugging us for Pete's sake. OMFG Maks R so EXPensiv3!! Yeah, so?

 

I held off a long time because of cost. For years and years I bought one $300 junker after another. A whole string of them. I thought the Windows boxes just "wore out" after a couple of years and sometimes I simply forked out good money for another one. Sometimes I gave the machine a "Winema". A wipe and install of Windows is an all day ordeal but it brought several machines back from the dumpster so I felt it was worth it. Then there was the money I forked out for OS upgrades. I should have got Win2K free for dealing with WinMe B$.

So when you add up the money I spent on Windows boxes, if the Mac lasts as long as I think it will, the cost is closer to a tie. I can't say this is true for every situation, but in my situation I wish I knew then what I know now and I would have gone "all in" for Mac a lot sooner.

 

While you don't always get what you pay for, you almost always never get more than you pay for. Compare reviews and user experience of $600 notebooks vs $1200 notebooks (leaving Apple out of the mix) and you'll see that similarly "speced" notebooks in the differing price ranges can also have very different performance and user experiences. Its not just the brand, its what goes into the machines and how.

 

A little defensive?

It seems like KPot was just looking to have a discussion about an article that interested him. This is the Apple subforum and the whole point is to discuss Apple hardware. If posts like these bug you, don't read them!

 

LOL.. Have a bad day or something?

I just thought it was an interesting article. They were talking about it on the MacCast podcast and the Diggnation podcast. Not trying to flame or anyting.

 

I'm not trying to be defensive.

I guess I'm just tired of people telling other people what to do with their money. Because that's what it all comes down to, money, right?

"You could have gotten the Dell X model, with the same specs, for half the price!!! You spent $X,000 on that?? N00b."

All I'm saying is that everybody has the RIGHT to choose whatever THEY feel suits them best.
As with lots of forum members, if you can't decide between products, or don't have the knowledge, you can always ask around, and fellow forumers will answer. But when I make my decision, based around my personal reasons and budget, for somebody to take me for a fool, I don't really appreciate it.

And this is not just happening with Apple or with computers. This happens with everything purchasable. And it's not cool.

Do you get my drift?

 

Ok, I need to make the distinction, that I know the comparison is apples to oranges, I just did it for fun. Don't take my comparisons too seriously. I did it more out of curiousity, and I found surprisingly that macs definitely aren't twice the price of a comparable pc.
I think some people are taking my comparisons too seriously. Just buy whatever makes you happy.

 

If you think that whats I was trying to do you are WAY off.

 

I'm still seeing some comparisons between incomparable laptops being made.

here how's this.
Macbook vs Dell XPS M1330 (with no LED backlit screen and no dedicated video). The 1330 chosen because its both 13.3" and also using the older Intel chip. No coupons or student discounts added. Price straight from their site.

Both with a 2.4ghz processor, 160gb HD, 2gb ram, built in web cam, dvd burner, bluetooth (I don't know if the macbook has it but I added it in the XPS), wireless N in dell (I dont know what kind of wireless the macbook has).

price:
Macbook $1299
XPS M1330 $1129
XPS M1330 $1074 (w/o bluetooth and using wireless G instead of N)

and some not directly so comparable due to slight differences
Macbook $1299
Vaio SR190 $1344 (came cpu speed, but newer processor, newer integrated grapics, this config does not have the dedicated video card)
Vaio SZ740 $1490 (same specs as macbook but has dedicated video)
Vostro 1310 $1044 (same specs, but with 2.1ghz cpu, no bluetooth).

the difference is there, but its not AS bad as the article suggests when the laptops are more comparable.

 

Omfg! Why did you pay that much for an Apple! Teh n00b!11














(jk)

 

These sorts of threads pop up all the time, and usually all the same sorts of comments and arguments for both Windows machines and Macs are posted. IMHO, the prices aren't the entire story, as has already been pointed out here very well by several people. But, in the end, if a potential buyer doesn't like what he sees available from Apple, he doesn't have to buy a Mac - simple as that.

What's actually funny in my view, is that most people I know personally who own Macs, also own Windows machines. LOL Not sure how many of you guys ride motorcycles, but I've been a rider for over 40 years. I'd prefer riding always if it were possible - it is not. So, much as I dislike driving and ***** and complain about how miserable cars are, I own two of the **** things. LOL I think Mac owners are very similar - most also own PC's much as they claim to love their Macs, and hate Windows.

 

I don't believe this article was well-written...for one thing, the HP DV2946NR uses a T5750 processor, which is an old processor compared to what is currently found on the Macs. The price is cheaper there already, why weren't little details like this paid attention to by the author?

In another note, the HP DV2946NR is 6.1 lbs. That, at 14.1-inches, is heavier than the MacBook and MacBook Pro. Why wasn't that considered?

The thickness is around 1.3 to 1.54-inches, I can't seem to get a proper number. Why wasn't that considered? That is thicker than the MacBook and MacBook Pro.

Regarding the desktop, they forget the form factor. Comparing an all-in-one against a midtower desktop isn't a proper comparison. If the author compared to the XPS One or the Gateway all-in-one, its a much more accurate comparison.

I just took a look at the Dell XPS One. That would've been a better comparison. I see the XPS One offers a desktop processor, I like that, but the best option for dedicated graphics is the ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2400. And that is only available in the middle configuration, which is at about $1400. The base iMac has that graphics card and offers up to an NVIDIA GeForce 8800M GS. Where's that note?

Memory wise, yes, Apple charges a ton for RAM upgrades. So do any most manufacturers, but Apple's is ridiculous. But upgrading RAM is easy and cheap, and the smart shopper who did enough research would have noticed that point.

I mean, no doubt Macs are more expensive, but this article wasn't accurate at all, in my opinion.

 

I was an avid user of Window for years. I turned to Mac and after all said and done with rebates, educational discount, and selling my free printer/ipod. My macbook pro with 2.4 Ghz Penryn came to roughly $1650. My IBM thinkpad T60 that I had used for roughly 2 years cost $2,500 when I bought it. It was the first dual core processor for labtop and pretty much top of the line at the time.

People who is unfair can play with numbers anyway they please. At the end of the day, just get whatever you want and be happy with it. The cost is a dumb issue.

Heck, why don't all of us use emachine, then it would be really cheap and be done with it.

 

BTW imho HP notebooks are POS.

However I agree that mac pro is way way overpriced.

 

If I'm not mistaken, I thought comparisons before found that the Mac Pro was the most worthwhile Apple computer. I don't think anyone offers a workstation with dual 2.8Ghz Quad Core Xeons and 800MHz FB-DIMMs for $2799. Dell offers workstations, but they are generally using 1333MHz FSB Xeons while Apple uses 1600MHz FSB Xeons.

If you are looking for a gaming desktop then you shouldn't be looking at the Mac Pro at all because of the latency involved in FB-DIMMs. However, if you are looking for a stable, production workstation, I'm pretty sure there isn't any competition offering a cheaper system with dual Quad Core 1600MHz FSB Xeons coupled with 800MHz FB-DIMMs.

 

Umm, nope. That is quite presumptuous on your part. Maybe some of the noobs that are switchers still own a PC and maybe some people keep a dedicated PC for gaming purposes but to say that MOST Mac users quietly own Windows machines is just wrong. When I left Windows and bought my first Mac I LEFT Windows.

 

so a xps m1530 is 1399, and a macbook pro is 1799 with a free ipod touch.

i don't see how people equate that to "double the price for the same hardware"

 

Presumptuous on my part, huh? First, you misread what I typed: I didn't say anything about Mac owners quietly owning Windows machines. You make it sound like I was trying to sneak something past a brilliant mind like your own. Why would I bother?

I don't know any Mac owner who doesn't also own at least one PC. If you don't and take offense at so innocuous a comment and think that's presumptuous well . . . tough, my man, that's really just too **** bad.

 

Not sure where you see these prices.

Macbook Pro 15"
2.5GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM - 2x2GB
250GB Serial ATA @ 5400 rpm
SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
MacBook Pro 15-inch Widescreen Display
None
Backlit Keyboard (English) / User's Guide
Total
$2,699.00

Dell XPS M1530
Intel® Core™ 2 Duo Processor T9300 (2.5GHz/800Mhz FSB, 6MB Cache)
Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium Edition SP1
High Resolution, glossy widescreen 15.4 inch LED LCD (1440x900) & 2.0 M
4GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz (2 Dimms)
Size: 250GB 5400rpm SATA Hard Drive
Slot Load DVD+/-RW (DVD/CD read/write)
256MB NVIDIA® GeForce® 8600M GT
Intel Next-Gen Wireless-N Mini-card
Verizon Wireless built-in cellular mobile broadband (EVDO Rev A)
Dell Wireless 355 Bluetooth Internal (2.0+Enhanced Data Rate)
56 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
Integrated Sound Blaster Audigy HD Software Edition
Finger Print Reader XPS M1530
Starting Price $2,292
Instant Savings $643
Subtotal $1,649

Thousand dollar difference. To get the free iPod there are special requirements (which I do not meet).

 

This a bit off topic but is it me or does apple never have discounts? I mean besides back to school season I never hear about "MacBook 10% off" or anything like that.

 

Apple doesn't do that sort, yeah. They don't do promotional "$100 off" or anything like that, the price stays the same and if it does drop, it drops with an announcement and will stay the new discounted price.

 

I generally don't waste my time arguing with people but look who's taking offense??? YOU. I don't see any bad language in my post. You can't control your temper.
I didn't misread your comment, you said most Mac users own a PC even though we say we hate Windows. That basically says that we quietly keep a PC but don't talk about it. Maybe you should "read" what I said. Again, just because YOU know Mac users that have PC's doesn't mean MOST people do as you said. You ARE presuming. Try and cool off dude.

 

It's about fostering discussion. There's nothing wrong with the OP's post.

I think the premium you pay for on the Macbooks comes in the form of Innovation. Larger touchpad. Magsafe power cord. Sleek Design. And of course you are also paying for the brand name and OSX as well.

I like the Macs, and I like my HP and Compaq Notebooks as well. My R4000 served me well for 2 1/2 years and not it is serving my wife well also. My new HP 9700t is a fantastic machine and I love it. I also really like the Macs. If I could I'd have several macs and PC notebooks and a huge file/web server and a gigabit Internet connection.

when it comes down to it I think Apple charges what they do because they can. Plain and simple. They make no bones about it. Apple caters to a different kind of customer and I can respect that.

 

Using the royal we now? Are you sure you aren't just a Mac user and not most Mac users? - Sounds to me like you're both presuming (you're just a bigger hypocrite about it - telling other people not to presume, while you do the same).

He doesn't know that most Mac users also have a Windows based PC, just as much as you don't know that most MAC users abandon Windows entirely. It's all statements from personal experience. In his experience, most Mac users (that he knows) also have a Windows computer of some sort. In your experience, you have ditched Windows entirely for your Mac. Everyone's experience is different and you can't tell anyone that theirs is wrong - it's just different than yours. Learn to live with it and take a minute to "cool off dude".

 

Obviously some of you did not read that. Thread closed.

Johnny T - NBR Moderation Team