Mac owners, tell me the truth.. the smugness.. is it just BS?

I've seen mac smugness quite a bit (and boy are those commercials with bug face jason long annoying). Like one guy at work has macs and is like "oh windows is awful" blablabla. Other people are like "OMG macs are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better! OMG I can't believe how much better they're so much better, windows sucks!"

Now, I like macs and might get one someday. But I fully realize the extra price is more for luxury, good apple tech support, nice build design, thinness, brandname recognition etc and I realize that some programs are faster on mac.

But all the smugness, is it just really from people who are buying into hype?

 

I have used only PCs in the past until I needed a mac to run Logic. I have witnessed FAR more hate directed toward mac than windows.


Financially, I dont think it's that uncommon for macs to be the better investment. Unless a person is completely self sufficient with computers, IE knows where to go with problems, knows how to trouble shoot issues independently, etc, then I feel that it is entirely worth the extra money for the fact that

a) chances are you're getting a more solid computer prone to fewer problems
b) The tech support is reliable and if you get a warranty you KNOW that your money will be well spent. A trip to the nearest mac store is quite a bit more ideal than waiting for Dell to send you the mailing box to use, and then waiting however long it takes them to fix the problem (hopefully!) and send it back to you. Not to mention subjecting yourself to their horrendous customer service.
and c) The resale value will be infinitely higher than anything you could hope for with a 2+ year old PC.

When time becomes an issue akin to money, I feel that one finds that the sheer ease of use and reassurance that if something screws up, you're covered, is more than worth the extra few hundred bucks you spend on something as important as a computer that you're going to be using for at least a couple of years.



Sure, if you know enough, with a bit of luck you might be able to get away with the 800$ laptop that serves you equally well and saves you money, but that's not the reason that people buy macs. I honestly havent experienced the smugness. No one I have encountered is willing to compare Macs to PCs, failing to acknowledge the money factor.

It's more the PC users that have such a dislike for Apple that they refuse to acknowledge that the extra money that goes into a mac is actually for more than a pretty toy with bells and whistles.


That being said, I despise the commercials as well. It's marketing for a less than savvy target audience, but what can you do?

 

You made some valid points there, I've highlighted them for you. I bought my macbook for those very reasons. I loved the design, the hardware, and the great technical support (which I had to find out for myself). I will tell you in all honesty, running OS X is much faster in my experience. The OS is very power efficient, and the notebook runs much cooler than in windows.
When I calibrated the battery the first time, it took me more than 5 hours before my macbook finally shut down, whereas I've read that running windows, the battery may be able to last 2 or 2.5 hours.
For those that want power efficiency, portability, great tech support, and a good OS, I think Apple is a great choice.
On the other hand, Apple does have its own culture which I feel is very snotty, and it's unfortunate. I too have seen the smugness amongst the community. It's great here, but at other forums, especially macrumors, it's pretty bad. Apple plays into that culture, tries to create a coolness factor, to separate itself from the rest. It's all marketing, and an ingenious plan IMHO, it's brought them a lot of revenue, a lot of people that have switched to Mac (like myself) in recent months/years. So much so, that Microsoft have felt the need to create their own ad campaign to help win consumers back. Isn't competition grand?
All in all, I think you can be a Mac owner, without conforming to the culture. Do I think they're better computers than regular PC's? That's hard to say. Without OS X, and given my past experience, I would say NO. I had to return mine several times because the tech that repaired it kept damaging it, but finally Apple let me do an express exchange, and I got a brand new, updated model in exchange for my broken one. Can you say the same about Dell, or HP, or others? In nearly every case, even if yours is just a month old, they will send a *refurbished* unit. I had mine for 4 months, and I still got a brand new one in exchange. They really seemed to go the extra mile to correct the issues I was having, and for that they've won a customer for life.

 

Actually, I think the smugness goes the other way around. For example, stroll through this specific MAC OS X forum and see how many Windows trolls come in to start trouble.

Now review all the other forums on this board and see how many of us Mac users go out of our way to go to ALL the other windows forums to start trouble.

See the difference?

 

There are many smug people in this world.

Some of them have macintosh computers. Smug people should be banished, but instead they preach about macintosh for free, so that Steve Jobs doesn't have to pay to market his own product (but he does anyway).

Windows is awful, but if you want to play *most* PC games you need it. Sometimes, people also get stuck relying on microsoft technologies, which forces them to stick with windows. Microsoft technologies are not all bad, but I stand by my claim that windows by itself is no good. Linux (its still free) and OSX are both great alternatives that everyone else should be using, but unfortunately many still do not.

Windows is not designed for the *light* computer user. In all seriousness, the most recent versions of Ubuntu cater better to this crowd. Mac OS X has a wickedly simple and sensible user interface, and also caters well to the casual crowd. All three operating systems are maintainable and can be satisfactory for power-users.

The most common reverse smugness you see revolves around the concept that windows is for people who "really use computers". It's insane and unfounded logic. The same kind of insane logic that Apple uses when, in an ADVERTISEMENT ON TV THEY CHOOSE TO MOCK MICROSOFT FOR SPENDING TOO MUCH MONEY ON ADVERTISING! This is in the FAMOUS, and famously expensive Mac vs. PC ad campaign.


my point? never believe the hype. everyone is hypocritical and mostly just trying to preserve their purchase decisions in their own eyes. so just make informed decisions.

that is all.

 

Well, if Linux will even work on your Mac.

 

It does...even on a Mac.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBookPro

You'll need to modify the OS of course.

I totally agree with this. Linux, OSX and Windows are all easy to use when you're good with computers. Linux and Windows will offer more customizability and software choices than OSX thus might be more favorable for enthusiasts.

 

I use both Windows XP and OS X, and tell my friends/relatives to buy Apple without hesitation.

If I exude any smugness, it's usually because they often rattle off some epic story about a windows crash or viruses or registry problems or spyware or their OS slowing down over time. I might be smug when I shrug and say 'none of that happens to me'. I can't help it, I think the 'smugness' is just that people using Mac realize they have found something better than Windows.

The real value in buying Apple is OS X, a UNIX based OS. In my mind it is easily superior to anything Microsoft has released. The quality of the hardware is like a nice bonus. I'm not smug based on the belief that using a mac helps my 'image', it's just that I now look at my friends and their constant windows battles and feel smug knowing I made the choice that means I NEVER have to deal with those issues again.

 

He knows you can get it to work. It's just he's been having troubles with it lately and is rather upset.

 

There are going to be haters on both sides of the camp. There are pros and cons to each OS. Use whatever you feel comfortable with and stick with it. Or do what many of us do, run multiple OSes. Just stick to what you want and what makes you happy and ignore what other people think or say whether it be a Mac or a Windows based laptop.

 

I think yes, there is an inflated hate of Windows (not just from Mac users though) and love of Mac . I am a supporter of Mac and love Mac OS X, but Windows is not a "failed OS". It has its bugs and faults, I agree, and I prefer Mac OS X to it, but it is not a completely bad OS.

Again, what do I prefer? Mac OS X. But do I hate Windows? No, I don't .

 

I don't think Windows is useless but I do use the word HATE when describing it. I wouldn't call my hate of Windows inflated, I just had a worse experience than others. I think it comes down to a company being able to back up the hype they produce. Apple does a good job backing up the hype while for me Vista never gave me the "WOW!" that MS advertised. If I come across as smug when discussing Windows its simply that I'm still mad about the experience I had with the OS.

 

I've personally seen the smugness of Mac owners, and enjoyed it tremendously! It's just hardware and software people! It won't change your life or enlighten you. I remember a kid in a crashpad (commuter apartment) where I stayed briefly. He had a very nice macbook, I had a nice MSI laptop. He was incredibly pleased with his choice as MacOS was totally superior in every way to windows. So I fired up Macos on my MSI Laptop. The mac owner was not amused. Priceless!

Anyway, I now own an Aluminum Macbook. I love the hardware. It is without a doubt, one of the most well engineered and built laptops available. I love it! And, I mostly run Win7, just to be contrary. Love the Hardware, MacOS is JUST OK, Win7 is very good and the smugness hasn't crept in yet.

 

i love both. they both have their advantages and disadvantages, no os is bug free.

 

I'm quite smug tbh.

My mac makes me a better person than those around me.

 

The "mac hates pc" or the "pc hates mac" is silly to me. I have friends and know people who are on both sides of the fence and are ready to go to arms for their camps when called for duty. It gets that serious. Whenever my friends or my coworkers get into it, I just wanna head towards the grocery store, buy 2 dozen eggs and maybe some watermelon, go back to the battlefield and throw the eggs and watermelon at them.

I mean, come on are you guys really gonna be smug, hate, or look down upon someone else just because of what type of computer they're using?

 

better get more eggs, and try some over ripe bananas too.... these dabates can go on for hours.

 

Were not being smug. Infact, just that by telling pc users that macs are in fact better products which is a fact, make us seem so.

People usually gloat when they are in a better position/better product. And the other/opposite side always takes it as being smug or negative since it doesnt benefit them.

For example, if were both into the stock markets and my picks in the last year paid a dividend of $100,000 and you only made $1,000, its a fact I did better and when if I tell you how much I made you would think it was being smug/gloating whatever you want to call it but I'm sure its all negative feelings.

We all know that people pay a premium on macs for the so much better overall quality/ease of use/superior software that you get. Maybe people think that mac users are being smug because they can afford a mac over a pc?

The usual argument comes from people that attack macs are, "I can afford one but I just dont want to spend that much money on the same thing I can get with a pc." To me its just another way of saying, I do have the cash for the mac but it will leave me poor in the end and no more money for other stuff I want.

In the end it doesnt matter, the USD will crash by next year and sadly all americans will be sent to the poor house with hyperinflation...

I'm getting ready and getting diversified out of the us dollar, are you?

Its only a matter of few years left before the US bond market bubble bursts and our fake economy will evaporate and we will see the true debt that we are in..

 

Interesting, that was not my experience at all. In fact, it was just the opposite. My Mac and my 14" R60 were almost the same machine with a T2300, 2GB of memory and a 7200RPM drive. It was my experience that my Mac always seemed more laggy when doing anything like opening a file/app, coding a file or booting, even as compared to the dreaded Vista.

I liked my Mac as something different, but I personally wouldn't say OS X was significantly better than Windows, even Vista. I wouldn't pay extra for a Mac. I don't value the tech support as much as others because I usually figure things for myself. While they look better than a lot of notebooks, that's not a prime motivator for me personally. Perhaps if I wanted a 17" machine, I may value the lightness of the 17" MBP. I like ThinkPads with their timeless design, but they're admittedly low on style.

The other issue for me is that you're paying significantly more for a Mac, but you're not getting proportional value in return in my opinion. For example you'll pay $2k for a MBP, but getting a screen that's not significantly better than anything else on the market. At the end of the day if someone else likes Macs and wants to get one, that doesn't take anything away from me.

 

lol.......

 

lol...
....

 

One to ask to reveal the truth is, if a macbook pro and a pc variant with the same specs are exactly the same price, no coupons and such. Which would you buy?

Even overpriced I'd still get a mac. But if they were all the same price, no brainer.

 

I have to write more text
Yup.

 

My "smugness" is showing badly tonight as I'm helping my father install Windows updates. 4 updates (350+ mb) available, everything downloads, 3 updates install and require a reboot. The system restarts and loses the last update so it needs to download 340+ mb again. Funny thing is that the first 3 updates are included in the 4th (Service Pack 2) but MS still forces you to install them first. I can't help but feel happy I switched to a Mac when things like this happen. Oh, I almost forgot that the fans on his Dell could be heard 20 feet away because they are spinning like crazy even though all the system was doing was downloading the updates. My wife asked what all the noise was and I had to remind her that when she had a Dell it did the same thing.

 

i bought a mac because the hardware is near unbeatable (style and speed) and i refused to use vista. Basically, I can game on my windows side and be proficient when working on my mac side.

 

But can we say things like calling the Iphone the Jesus phone, taking the smugness a bit too far?

 

i love how u guys say the hardware in macbooks is superior when its no different from the components in other PCs

 

I agree. It is essentially the same.

What's different is the product design approach, and some people neglect to look at it like that.

It's like comparing car brands, the concept is the same and the hardware components work very similar if not, the same. However, the attention to detail to build that product, implementation and functionality is a whole different thing.

 

Even so, the build quality and the way OS X handles the hardware is completely different.

I've actually done a test with an audio app I use (Propellerhead Reason) on my Mac and a Windows machine with a really big project I'm working on (25GB+), same hardware, the Windows machine could barely play the project. Audio was skipping and CPU usage was through the window.

My Unibody MBP had no problems bouncing the project at all.

My conclusion here is even though you can find a similar (or exactly) spec-ed Windows machine, chances are (just like in my case) where people's specific needs will be better met by the Mac rather by the more inexpensive Windows machine.

 

I also love how pc buyers say that pc hardware is far superior, when in actuality its the same or near similar in performance

Unless you plunk down on an alienware for $5-6k for the intense gaming sessions, the macbook pro/dell whatever, asus whatevers all have the same internals/performance with macs having the superior software of course.

I think software is more important than hardware imho. Hardware is important as well but I think software implementation is much more important. I would rather use a generation older chipset if the software is incredible as to a bad/decent software + latest and greatest chipset.

 

Software? There's more choices, especially in many niches, under Windows. Among mainstream apps, there are many apps you can't get under OS X. There are only two real niches in OS X which offer truly competitive or even slightly better apps - and that's video editing, and music creation. Even in design, where it really matters these days - product design, since graphic design tools have achieved parity on both platforms - Windows is vastly superior.

The self-contradicting Windows users don't help, but Apple's insistence on pushing the thermal envelope for starters means that when the chips are down (i.e. worked hard) means that pro-targeted Windows machines of similar price, or even slightly cheaper, usually perform more solidly.

In terms of build 'quality' such as it is for Apple, the Rev.A issue is very much real and I defy anyone to disprove that. Can you name any other manufacturer with a Rev. A issue?

I think also the Apple Fanboy's insistence on comparing relative reliability with something that's usually less than half the cost, or worse still - something that he built himself in the belief that he is able to throw together a reliable PC - contributes to the justifiable derision aimed at them by many Windows 'fanboys'.

A Leopard machine circa 2008 will also have 1Gb+ of updates requiring several reboots. Your point is?

 

Absolutely true and incontrovertible. The only thing that you failed to comment on is the software included with the mac. As a software suite for the home user it is superior to what you get out of the box with a windows machine...and I would think that the home/light user market is one of the largest single markets. And yes, I am in complete agreement that you can purchase and likely find shareware and freeware that accomplish the same tasks on the pc as on the mac, but again I'm talking about the (not tech savvy) home market. In this area the mac really does 'just work'.

A similarly specced pc will outperform a mac? You're basing this on what? As long as the components remain within operating parameters, they should uhh operate the same, no? hmm maybe I misunderstood...are you saying that a similarly priced pc will have higher a specced cpu and gpu? Then yep I agree, but to me the size of the laptop is more important than having a faster gpu.

I've heard of this issue, but I just did several google searches for something concrete and I couldn't find anything. Something needs to be proven before it can be disproven. Its perfectly logical that all manufacturers tweak designs as new revs are developed. I would imagine that if they want to stay in business, all manufacturers improve as they go through the life-cycle of a product. I know my last Sager did.

Look a mac idiot is as much an idiot as a pc idiot. Someone who compares a $3000 laptop to a $1000 laptop shouldn't be able to make any point whatsoever. The same can be said for a build-it-yourself pc user deriding someone who bought theirs either because they didn't know how (and didn't want to learn) or considered the cost less important than the time involved. Should the idiot fringe really be the deciding factor in aiming derision at an entire user base? I suppose this is what most groups use to reinforce arguments against other groups (look at political parties), but as in much political discourse, this really doesn't reflect the opinions and motivations of the majority.

To answer the OP's original question, yes its bs. If you're smug about what computer you use, you haven't considered all the individual variables and preferences involved in purchasing and owning a computer.

 

I haven't run across that problem yet. I also haven't had updates that Apple forced me to install before allowing a Service Pack type update that includes the ones I was forced to install. I have only had 1 issue installing an update from Apple and that was only because of the large number of people downloading it at the same time (next day it was flawless). Windows update on the other hand gives me errors all the time requiring me to do a search to see how I can fix the problem. Sometimes I'll get the update to finally install only to have windows update tell me I need to install it again the very next day. If I do run into a problem with an Apple update I can call Apple Care, with Windows I can call MS to be told to call the manufacturer who then tells me to call MS because they can't decide if it is a software or hardware issue (yes I know someone it happened to).

 

What he said, Windows Update can be a real pain sometime.

 

I can't really comment on the variability or basic competence of users. Only platforms.

Personally, apart from the applications problem I think OS X is a very decent OS when considered purely as an OS. It certainly has some standalone advantages over the Crazed Monkey Dancer's current, PR-deficient offering - although I also feel that when the entire app ecosystem is concerned, Vista is a more productive OS - and that even when also considered purely as an OS, it is currently not appreciably worse than the Cupertino-Than-Thou offering.

That is, if you aren't a smug Apple-worshipping (insert expletive of choice)

I do have considerably more to say about the hardware that each OS runs on, but that's another story.

 

It really amazes me that people put so much emphasis on factors that have absolutely no relevance to the actual use of a product. A possible public perception of "smugness" does NOT prevent a person from using a computer to do their work in any way shape or form.... unless your only using the computer as a fashion accessory.
If a Mac suits your needs well then get one... if it doesn't then don't. But if your only concerned that someone might laugh/categorize/think your smug for your choice then perhaps it might be better if seek some guidance from a self-esteem book to learn methods for coping with bullies.

There is no requirement to sign up as an apple fanboy when you by a Mac, you can avoid forums, and put a sticker over your apple sign if you must. They say ignorance is bliss.
a

 

Good point. However, sometimes that design approach goes too far... don't forget that Jobs despises cooling systems... the current Macbook lineup has the bare minimum (which is not enough in the 17-inch matte... all heat spewed out through hinge + heat-sensitive backlight = problem)... shall we even mention the Apple III warped motherboards? Or why the iMacs don't have LED-backlit screens?

The smugness... there's quite the bunch of arrogant fools who can barely discuss the basic technicalities but still claim superiority... these people give all Apple users a bad name.

 

Both sides have those kinds of people and since Windows is almost 90% of the market wouldn't it stand to reason that there are about 9 times the amount of smug Windows users as compared to Mac owners.

 

Then there are the people who make quick assumptions, who make definitive statements without the necessary qualifications, or who use completely irrelevant examples to back up their argument, like say, a 30 year old computer. These people really help to develop the perception of PC users as being even handed and fair.

That was definitely smug. Sorry.

And why aren't the people who descry Apple manufacturing ineptitude not doing the same for their PC counterparts. Why not condemn Clevo for their apparent inability to keep HD's cool in the Sager 8662 case?

And I guess Apple's working on the LED iMacs

 

Honestly, I believe that it all depends on a person's experience with the OS, as well as that person's perception on what an OS should be able to do and how he is able to tolerate the short comings of an OS.

A typical pc gamer would, no doubt, usually go for Windows for their custom built rig, because the main thing that they'd be doing is gaming on the system. In some cases, people who are more literate in computing would dual boot their system with Linux/BSD/Unix based OSes (or just run it without Windows), just because they need the extra fluidity and power via open source programs and tools.

Mac OS, as a system platform on its own, offers user a hassle free (somewhat) environment. Most software that one would use, generally comes bundled with it, unlike Windows. However, it'd be folly to say that it is without its fault, just as Windows would crash, Leopard does the same from time to time.

Some would disagree, saying that it has never happen to them before, but not all are as competent as others when handling computer systems. Experienced Windows users who know the ins and outs of Windows, can avoid system crashes and solve generic errors quickly. Same goes to those who are experienced with Mac.

The only experience I've ever had with Mac OS is when I'm maintaining labs filled with Macs. I'm more of a Linux/Windows user, I juggle between the both and I can say that, it all depends on the user, if he just want things to work, Mac might suit him well, or, if he's an avid open source supporter, Linux/BSD might suit him well (Mac as well, because some people don't have the time to debug anything and everything that comes up), finally, windows for those who like the whole 'my computer' environment, as well as the numerous amount of software available for it, be it useful or useless, that's another story.

So yea, OP. I think you'll feel right at home with a Mac, since it's what you want, heck, even you mentioned that 'some' programs run faster than windows on Mac, I guess you did a little research and that means you're going to be using those programs alot, so why not?

I guess it does runs hot, although I generally think that anything below 65C on stress is fine for me. I don't know if EnterKnight actually owns a NP8660, but as I do own one, I'll put my 2 cents in regarding this issue. The HDD in a NP8660 do actually run quite hot when on stress, hovering 60C in my case, however, on idle, it drops to lower 50s. Although, the HDD temp is, relatively hot compared to other laptops. In some cases, the HDD temp may go higher than what is considered norm, these cases are usually considered 'rare' and 'unusual', so to speak. And yes, I do question Clevo's design in keeping the HDD cool.

 

And then there are people who base their comments on wild assumptions and make definitive, condescending statements based on a lack knowledge about another poster.
Apple III only there to illustrate that this isn't a sudden occurence. Read up on cooling systems and Jobs. Only when he originally left the company could the engineers do what they wanted to do... instead of insulting me, I don't know, look into what we are talking about? Also... what do you know of my qualifications?

Oh, but they do... thinks like the M1330 build quality, for example. But you don't see it here. Why? Because it's a discussion whether you are truly paying for absolutely superior design. PC gripes are elsewhere, and guess what? There's more, because, guess what, you can't even compare the amount of PC models to how many Apple has duked out do date. But you won't see anyone come into an Apple forum complaining about their X460's touchpad placement or the hinges on their Y510, will you?

You're even more smug. I'm sorry. That's enough for this thread... if you want to continue this, do so in a PM.

Back to the topic. The Apple ads really don't help with your average Windows user's perception of the average Apple user with their play on stereotypes... then again, isn't the 'smug type' a stereotype in itself, just like the 'jealous Windows guy'?

 

There is a really good word people use here...it sounds something like this- [obijnik]-those word is used who,for example,loose card game and start-"oh,you play was pathetic,you were just lucky",or were offended and start acting like a child and things like that... And this topic is like full of those people...

P.S. name any company,and I ll find lots bad things/defects/etc. about their products...

P.P.S EnterKnight,

ORLY?

P.P.P.S this thread needs to be closed since it is pointless...it's like gamer convincing someone who plays only tetris to get nVidia 280gtx...

 

@ Enterknight:

Look I was being intentionally smug...this is a thread about smugness afterall, and I intended my post to be lighter hearted than perhaps it was perceived. If you were to see most, if not all my other posts, you'd find that I am extremely centrist when it comes to computers. It irks me when either side makes unsubstantiated claims. A spit in the face insult was not intended...more like a jab to the ribs.

So to the points that were brought up, I think your statements about cooling were simply not nuanced enough: Jobs despises cooling, I mean come on...I am aware that he has a penchant for reducing cooling and noise, but your inclusion of the Apple III as an example seemed to be an attempt to demonstrate a pattern that developed 30 years ago and that is still being perpetuated today. And that simply isn't true. Since you use a desktop as an example, what about the towers? Mine is exceptionally well ventilated.

As to the the Mbp, the only assumption that I made about your qualifications were that you were not A) an Apple engineer or B) an engineer that has thoroughly tested the thermal properties of the Mbp. I feel pretty safe with those assumptions. If I'm wrong, full apologies. Barring my error, who is to say that there is indeed a physical design flaw in the Mbp. Could not the overheating issue, as some say they have, be solved by a firmware fix which lowers the temperature threshold for the fans to spin up to a higher rpm? If there is an issue then can't it just as easily be seen as a software issue?

The part about the Sager...my whole point is that I think you'll find it extremely rare for a Mac owner (excluding fanboys, who I think are far and few between on these forums) to go to the Sager, Dell, HP, etc. forum and complain about that brands build quality, yet PC people come to the Apple forum and comment on them all the time. Lastly, "absolutely superior design" is, in the end, largely subjective.

Back to you regularly scheduled thread....

well you could get 900 fps...and that would indeed be sweet.

I've had way too much free time on my hands today.

 

This is the most sane argument I've read so far. I completely agree. It blows me away how the Windows community which has 90% of the computer market has the nerve to whine about smugness from a community of people using Macs which is under 10% market share worldwide. Such a small amount of users shouldn't affect these PC fans. Sounds like the PC fans have more of an inferiority complex.
I remember the days when a Mac user (such as myself) would bring my iBook into my local coffee house and I would get "THE STARE" of, "You don't belong here". I've had PC fans tell me to my face, "How could you buy that thing, there's no software for it and nobody buys those little Mac things anyway"!

 

I'm smug. I have a mac and a proper one at that (powerbook 12").







On the other hand, I'm smug because I'm an elitist. I look down on everyone.

 

I'd wager more like 2-3

 

Well there you have it OP. You asked the question and you got many answers. So I am going to close this before it all goes south.

Johnny T - NBR Moderation Team