MBP - Classic or Retina

Hi All,

I'm trying to decide between getting the classic MBP and the retina version. I will be using a student discount for my purchase, and I will be using this thing mainly for schoolwork and a little gaming on the side.

Right now I play League of Legends, SC2, but I'd like to play stuff like the new Tribes game and maybe some other FPS games.

I'm trying to see if anyone has had any problems with the new retina model, and also, is the cooling improved in the classic? I read that there were people who had some problems with the older classic 15 inchers.

I plan on running boot camp on the mac, so I'm also curious to if there are any problems with Windows 7 with the retina screen?

Thanks!

 

the cooling is better on the RMBP, there is a thread comparing the 2 on macrumors


There are no problems running bootcamp on the RMBP.

 

Similar specs, better screen than the "classic" MBP (and I daresay better than the Retina as well), better standard warranty (2 years + 1 year accidental damage) for much less money than even the student discount would provide.

Unless you will be spending the majority of your time in OS X (75% at a minimum), this would be a better choice.

MSI GE60 0N-006US - XOTIC PC - MSI 15.6" Gaming Notebook

I had an MSI notebook a couple years ago and it was great. No issues at all. Or, at least no issues that weren't caused by my own stupidity.

 

If its a msi gaming series, go for it! Since this isnt, I do remember the subpar build quality that I had with mine, which has a exceedingly similar design to the GE60.

That ex625 left a bad taste in my mouth, however things change.

 

The retina model is much better... as long as you aren't wanting a cheaper hard drive, or a built in DVD drive. The cooling in the Retina model is also better, as the older model is the same body style with the same cooling it always had. There is little reason to buy the Classic unless your just dying to have upgradable ram and be able to fit in a standard size hdd/ssd and need an optical drive. The retina might cost a bit more up front, but thats just because its a better machine.

 

The MBPR is lighter, which will help a lot when carrying it around all day.

Some apps don't look great on the retina display, worse than on a normal display, and require their manufacturers to update them. Notable are Word and Pages.

 

Stick to the classic and get the 15" with dedicated video card. Your games and apps will be at native resolution and run very smooth and decent FPS. Once all the apps are updated and actually function the RMBP will be out dated......


Edit: Also you can get 16gb of ram for $90 here and then go here to pick up a samsung 830 256gb for 209 or less. Try getting those upgrades from apple...mwahhahahahahahaahhhh


SSD: $267 - $58 (clip coupon) = $209 shipped

 

Have fun with scaling your games to non native res and the way everything gets displayed. Along with that here is a good review of both laptops and you can clearly see the drop in FPS for retina versus non retina for PORTAL 2 the game which is testing your video card. Testing the SSD against the original MBP is unfair since you are comparing mechanical HD versus Flash based HD. The 1gb GT650m is decent running at non retina display but using the same 1gb GT 650 to drive 2560 x 1600 is just plain stupid. Actually it is plain genius since when the new revision comes out...guess whose stock value is going up thanks to loyal customers.


MACWORLD REVIEW

 

o_0 really? I thought the classic has better HSF and heat management, since it's thicker.

 

I take it you don't like anything about the MacBook Pro Retina. Have you actually used one or is all of your analysis paper based?

 

I think another difference between the two is that retina has its video card clocked a bit higher than classic due to better heat management. However, looking at the benchmarks in previous post - that doesn't seem to be true. Also, t can't seem to find any other hard numbers to back this up.

 

Personally nope I do not own it and that would be ridonkulously stupid since I can get 2 laptops for 1 retina. You really do not want to know how little I paid for the m14x r2 and the macbook pro ivy bridge was just as cheap.

I have friend who decided to take the jump and based upon my experience gaming with them and helping them setup there personal laptop. I am sure you are the go to guy in your family for tech and I am the same. Everyone comes to me friends and family to take care of upgrades, setups , clean installs and price hunting. I have played around with it in store upon release and heavily while setting up my buddies laptop for gaming and productivity. Let me know how that HEAT treats you on BF3 when you are having a nice 1 hour session....liquid metal LOLZ

 

have gamed pretty much my whole life of LCDs at non-native... have no problems with it, and it looks great on the Retina since the pixels are so dang tiny. It looks fantastic. Macworlds benchmarks you link there are very suspect, and don't fully match up with others seen elsewhere. That thing is saying the AMD 6750 is faster than the GT 650m too. I think they had some software or driver problems. How horridly are they setting these things up they are pulling 190s in frame rates? are they running at 800x600 or something?

its thicker to fit everything inside, like the giant DVD drive and hard drive and ram slots/sticks... there is actually less room for cooling in the older models.

Macworlds benchmarks are usually not the best, and those are some of the worst they've done... don't believe them. They list Cinebench OpenGL faster on the older 2011 Macbook Pros, which is absurd, as I have an older one and the Retina is noticeably faster in OpenGL in almost everything. Never trust benchmarks from Macworld... and wait for an update or two, or Mountain Lion, as there seems to be some driver issues right now causing some slowness issues in specific circumstances. The GT 650m still blows away the older model when you start running higher resolutions and more graphics options though... and will get better in a few driver updates I'm sure.

 

gross.

Although, the resolution is high enough on the rMBP that non-native doesn't matter on that particular screen. 1920x1200, 1680x1050, and 1440x900 all look fine.

 

Its just never been an issue. There are so many people who scream and yell about how horrid it is like its the end of the world, but its just so minor it doesn't matter. "Gross" is the same reaction a lot of people have to others when their opinion is different. If it doesn't work for you, thats fine... but not playing at an LCD native res is actually very common.

 

Wait, what? You can't seriously be referring to the 650m there... It's very interesting how so many people stomped on the 650m before the New MBP. But once it gets announced as being in the new MBP it gets heralded as such a great GPU.

Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

 

Oh, but he can! Look at what's going on in the top tier category. The new kings are @100% performance increase over the previous gen! The 7970M is more powerful than 6970 CF and even 6990 CF(in many cases). But in the mid class the situation is pretty pathetic it seems, with the 650M being almost identical to the last year 560M, which wasn't such a great GPU anyway. Of course, if you go from the GT550M, it may look like a huge boost, but the truth is, to drive the retina at max res (especially in games) you need something far more capable and I was really hoping to see a 6970M level of performance there. After all, when the GPU is soldered to the mobo and there's no way of upgrading it, the situation is not that optimistic.

 

Well, you said "Personally nope I do not own it and that would be ridonkulously stupid since I can get 2 laptops for 1 retina" in your best grammar.

As for your purpose, I think the folks that have been reading this thread and others understand your purpose quite clearly.

 

I DO NOT OWN A RETINA MACBOOK....I DO OWN PLENTY OF APPLE PRODUCTS. It would be foolish of me to spend 2k on a retina when combined I spent less on the m14x r2 and the macbook pro. What you have invested in 1 laptop I have in 2 laptops

 

You really had me going there for a little bit. I couldn't tell if you were messing with me or not.

Why is it that whenever people come into the Apple section on NBR and oppose any kind of Mac, they get labeled as trolls? Some people really are blinded by Apple's marketing and so they need people like us to "see the light" if you will. For example, those that want to buy a Mac to exclusively run Windows 100% of the time. They need people like us so they don't make that huge mistake. This thread is another great example. This guy really shouldn't be looking at the MBP when one of his priorities is gaming. For any game the MBP runs just decently at this point in time, will fall to unbearable FPS in a year or so. OP, don't get an MBP for gaming unless you want to explore the possibility of an eGPU.

 

thats right.. I forgot that the only thing that matters for a GPU is how fast it pushes out game graphics... power, heat, and other features do not matter at all.

 

Dunno, if your post is really addressed to me or someone else, but heh, -
First, I completely agree with you and so does my previous post.
Second, after a couple of beers and a few pounds of butter-wine-steamed-mussels, life looks and feels different and it's really hard to find the line between messing around and expressing a honest opinion.

 

Hi all, in the end I got the base 15 inch classic mbp. I decided that the retina was just a bit too much money for me, and I still use ethernet ports and dvd drives.

Thanks for the help.

Also, is the applecare 3 year warranty worth buying? I currently have purchased it but haven't registered it yet. The store I bought it from told me if I decided I didn't need it, I can return within 14 days.

 

No I thought your post was amusing.

The second part of my post was not directed towards you, just everyone else in this thread calling anyone that opposes a Mac a troll.

Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

 

Why opposing? How about a fair amount of healthy criticism, which could never hurt. I do the same to any other vendor whenever they release a decent product. rMBP is a great machine but it's not perfect and it's important to outline the compromises. It's slim and light, packs decent horse power and a very good screen with the highest maximum resolution found in a laptop today. But it lacks a matte finish version and only covers sRGB. The machine itself is non-upgradeable (except for the storage but it would take ages before the suppliers start offering decent option for a good price) and limited by 16GB RAM. The CPU and GPU are also soldered to mobo and if one component ever fails - everything fails.

The MBP on the other hand has certain upgradeability and a matte screen version. That alone would make it a worthy purchase in my eyes if I didn't need all the extras that can only be found deep in the business sector (Precisions/Elitebooks/ThinkPads)

 

I think we've covered the fact that this is not a reasonable criticism. It's one of the best laptop displays available, and sRGB is currently the standard of choice for most. Adobe RGB should NOT be used unless you know exactly what you are doing, are a professional photographer, you are using specific software for Adobe RGB, and you are doing your own printing. Everyone else should be using sRGB. It's easy to screw up aRGB and make your photos worse, and it can cause banding in 8 bit color if you aren't careful (adobe RGB has worse precision than sRGB). I think we should get over aRGB (especially in 8 bits) as a collective forum.

 

Sincerely, I do understand the idea of apple = best displays out there, misguided as it is.

However with all the hype regarding how the RMBP screen should fit well for photographers we should have already expected that.

Basically while the price is high for the RMBP, its still a good machine that has its strong and weak points, thus in the end, measure what favors you and purchase that.

 

This is where I disagree completely. Why do people always think that wide gamut is only good for professionals working in color critical environment? Why can't you just enjoy the way photos, videos and games look on your machine? To me, after years of using RGBLED TN and IPS equipped laptops (M17xR2, 8470w, 8760w, W510), a screen with a 100%sRGB coverage looks dull and bleak. And of course, one might and will say something like "that's because you are now used to oversaturated colors", which is incorrect. There's a difference between bumping saturation or digital vibrance and having more color hues and shades. And if more colors = oversaturated picture (even after proper calibration) in your eyes, it means that your eyes are now used to seeing 30% of the visible spectrum - welcome to the Matrix
BTW, it doesn't have to be 8-bit, there are 10-bit panels out there and after a few years of evolving, the banding you mention is less of a problem.

 

10-bit panels are very rare on laptops, and to get adobe RGB colors correct you need to have a very specific workflow.

If you are viewing sRGB content on a monitor calibrated to aRGB, then the more widely spaced colors (not more colors, it's a tradeoff between range and precision) will be over-saturated, because the intended color will be different than the color you see. If I wanted to show you the color (200,20,20) in sRGB, and you see (200,20,20) in aRGB, then you're simply going to see the wrong color (maybe something close to 215,30,25 in sRGB). If that's what you want, then that's fine, but how is that a reasonable criticism of the macbook pro screen? If anything, most professionals want accurate colors. That means adobe RGB for very specialized situations involving custom printing, and sRGB for everyone else.

 

Ok, here you go. These were the comparison pictures I took in a response to multiple requests to show the difference between 10-bit IPS RGBLED (~150% sRGB) vs 8-bit RGBLED TN (~125% sRGB). Notice, how many more hues are present on the pictures on the left, it's almost unbelievable. Yes, the IPS panel was a bit warmer after the calibration, but you can still get the idea. My M18x with a 100% sRGB panel, properly calibrated with Spyder3, sux big time compared to these 2 panels.

But I agree, if you are only trying to show/see the most accurate colors of a sRGB content, then yeah, you are right. But that's the whole point, do you wish to tie yourself to 30% of the visible spectrum forever or maybe aim for something better, like 70%? (dreams... ). That's were I give the most credit to Apple for Retina screen - They pushed the bar in terms of resolution, even though the standard is 1920x1080 and most applications won't be able to display/scale the content properly at that resolution. Same with color spaces. If Apple were to push aRGB or even the full wide gamut in addition to higher res, it would eventually force more vendors to join the race and maybe the standard would change. And btw, you don't have to sacrifice the accuracy. The HP IPS RGBLED comes with a software (MDA) which allows you to switch precalibrated profiles on the fly. You can go from aRGB to sRGB in less than a second and have your sRGB content compatibility. But you can also switch to the 1 billion color native mode and use it for your pleasure, if you like!

 

in all of those shots, the massive difference in the images comes from the fact that the left panel is IPS and the right is not. Nothing to do with colorspace at all. The colorspace difference is much more subtle. It would be easier to see in print or in two similar screens side by side (ideally in person so you can adjust your view point). It will be really hard to capture the difference with a camera, especially when one of the panels is a TN panel.

Imo, if apple wants to make a leap and break compatibility, ie. set a new standard, then they should go with prophoto or something similar ( scrgb actually maintains compatibility, could be interesting), and 16 bits per channel (48 bit color)

 

I'm sure Apple will take in all the feedback from the pro community and adjust accordingly.

A new HP 8570w with Dreamcolor, quad 3720, NVIDIA K1000M, 16GB RAM, 256GB SSD and 200W Power brick comes to $3775. So yea, if you really want the high end panel it is available. I'm actually a little surprised at how much the DreamColor option has come down in price. That machine used to be $5000-6000.

 

Add to this a 28-30% rep discount and the price will be below 3k You can also upgrade SSD, RAM and even CPU (grab a 3820QM of ebay for 300$ and sell the stock one) and save hundreds. Not to mention that you can have 3 SSDs in it (mSATA+SATA3+SATA2 in Optibay). BTW, if you switch to AMD FirePro M4000 and leave RAM and storage stock, you can get it for 2k after a discount. 32GB RAM + 512GB SSD would cost you about 500-600$. So, for 2.5k you can have a killer machine with DreamColor and 3 year international NBD warranty.

 

It seems like that wouldn't be available to most consumers. Clearly, the 8570w is a high end laptop, but that seems a bit off topic.

 

You mean the price? Their website offers a 20% off coupon code right up on the configuration pages. Any rep would give you more, anywhere from 25 to 30%.

But yeah, let's get back to the topic.

 

Dang, how did this thread get so bad so fast?

The 650m is a healthy 70-80% upgrade over the high-mid end 6750m. The fact that Apple gave it a 10% higher clock than specified (850->925) makes it all that much better. The 6750m was no slouch in itself, a good 100% faster than the 330m.

The 650m in the MBP should be a slight step above the 560m GTX, which was an enthusiast card less than a year ago. To label it as a mid-range is simply silly, the 75w TDP and GTX monicker speaks for itself.

What's the problem here?

 

who cares what range it's in? you know it's completely meaningless, right? if you don't want to call it midrange and someone else does, then you clearly have different conceptions of what "mid-range" means, which has no bearing on the performance of the part.

and why should anyone expect consensus on a term without a definition? <- this is the only thing that surprises me, time and again

and as long as we're on the topic of useless naming conventions, the 650m doesn't have the GTX moniker.

 

Last year the 560M was about 50% slower than the top dogs (6970M/6990M/580M). Today, the top dogs jumped 100% in performance hitting 6k+ in 3Dmark11, that's almost 3x performance of the 650m. And given a) Higher res screeen and b) no GPU upgradeability in the rMBP, - things don't look that optimistic to me. You will want to play demanding games at max res down the road, and will have to lower the settings to do so. Many will try OC'ing their cards to get a few extra FPS and given the cooling system limitations, I expect a high failure rate of the rMBPs 1-2 years down the road.

 

I don't suspect the high failure rate that you do. As far as the limitations of the hardware, you can't put a 7970m or 680m in a thin 15" macbook pro. You must be thinking of some other category of hardware that has nothing to do with the mbp. That trade off between performance and form factor always exists, and it is not unique to the macbook pro.

The gddr5 650m is certainly a great choice for the form factor.

 

Not the 7970M, but it's not a rocket science to expect a 6970M level of performance in this case. Yes, I agree, there are certain hardware limitations but as someone who ran a R&D (notebook prototyping) team in the past, I can tell with 100% certainty, - it's doable. And you don't even need to switch to extremely expensive materials like pyrolytic graphite to achieve the goal. 3 years ago HP managed to cram a 100W GPU + 60W CPU in a 3.6cm notebook with a single fan cooling solution. I was one of those criticizing HP for inferior cooling, which still did a better job compared to that of the rMBP. But the true improvement was in the thickness, given the fact that the mobo had 2 RAM slots on each side (upgradeable). With a soldered ram/hdd/cpu/gpu, that machine could be 2cm (just like the rMBP). Apple would only need to add an extra pipe to their current cooling and adjust the fans to make a 75W+ GPU a reality in this case. But that would cost 50$ extra per machine, which is a serious problem indeed.

 

Are you talking about the HP Envy 17? That laptop is more than 2x the size of the rMBP. On top of that, the MBP commits a significant amount of its volume to the battery. If that was your example, you're living in a fantasy world.

The 6970m is also not acceptable in this chassis, it has similar power and thermal constraints as the 7970m. There's no reason to assume that they can just magically get 6970m levels of performance. Unless there is a component available that has a TDP of the 650m but the performance of the 670m, you should take it up this argument with the graphics card manufacturers.

If getting 6970m performance in a rMBP form factor was doable (without changing the parameters, like increasing the size by 2x, cutting battery life by 70%) - then other manufacturers would be doing it.

 

No doubt. But can you agree that it is not the right machine for someone who wants go game? This thing won't be able to run next years titles with decent settings at a tolerable FPS. Even if it was able to, would it really be a good idea to stress the GPU with high temps with regular gaming? Who knows how badly that will decrease the lifespan of this kind of machine.

 

I think it would be the right machine for someone who wants to use OS X first and foremost.

The rMBP should be fine for games through 2013 with medium-high settings and high frame rates at about 1680x1050 depending on the game. Nevertheless, there are cheaper options in windows notebooks that will give much better results. Still, it gets 45+ FPS at high settings in BF3 @ 1920x1200. That's not exactly terrible.

So, while it will certainly work, it shouldn't be a serious choice for someone whose primary concern is gaming. If gaming is secondary to having an OS X laptop (and economic concerns are a distant third), it could be a good choice.

short version- yes, you're absolutely right about the quoted point.

As far as not being able to run next year's games fluently, I don't think that's a serious concern, but it depends on your expectations. As far as physical damage to the internal components, I don't think that is a realistic concern either, based on the information I have seen thus far.

 

Next years games should be just fine and honestly nothing more then whats out today . So no better or worse since games take years to develop and nothing massive is really on the horizon more so then this year as far as requirements. Next gen consoles will probably usher in a new era of PC gaming requirements but till then yeah..

As for being a gaming laptop just use it like any other notebook that has a warranty. If it croaks take it to an Apple store.

I am moving on from my M18x and the only thing i have in my sights is the RMBP since i need something ultra portable with decent power, i will certainly be gaming on it with nary a concern of it dying because i am gaming it on it. They are built for that regardless of what people might think or say as they are designed for whatever you have in mind. It does not come with a manual that says gaming prohibited or only game for 1 hour then let it cool off for 2 .

Buy it and enjoy it period. Extend the warranty if you are afraid of premature death.

 

This is wrong on so many levels. First, it was one of the Elitebooks and it was 2x the size of the rMBP due to the following: Upgradeable CPU/GPU/HDD/RAM/Wifi, RAM on both sides of the mobo, ton of connectivity options including expresscard, RJ45, modem, vga, 4 USB ports and more.

Second, a 6970m level of performance doesn't mean a 100W GPU, lol. A 7870m would be a great option. In fact, Apple had it on list until AMD failed miserably by sending a bunch of faulty cards as preview samples. That's when the decision was made to turn back to Nvidia, even though Apple wasn't willing to do so easily, after the long and difficult law suit a few years ago, when many laptops failed due to poor quality soldering on the Nvidia cards (8xx0m).

And most importantly, many things are doable far beyond what we currently have on the market. But there are compromises the most important of which is $$$$. It is possible, to make a 15" notebook with a thickness and weight of the rMBP but with a 3920xm + 2x7970m and 7hr+ battery life. I've seen similar prototypes in the past. Problem is, such a machine would have a 5000$ cooling system, 10x more expensive battery and a few other small bumps to bring the cost on par with an entry level racing car. Doable - yes, done - nope. But adding an extra pipe or 2 to the existing cooling system (or rather, making a 2-3 piped cooling to begin with) and cramming a 70W GPU in the rMBP, would only bump the cost by 50$ and add ~50gr weight. And even that is too much of a strain for big vendors. Comes as no surprise though, given the economy trends

 

So why are you being critical about this particular product when the alternative you conceive of has a $5000 cooling system? What's your point?

It's pretty obvious that laptop companies can't increase total price by a factor of 20+ to get a graphics performance increase by a factor of 2-3.

As for adding extra heat pipes, it's pretty obvious that a lot of thought went into the internal design of the system. Have you seen the inside? There is not much room. You saying that they should have just added a heat pipe and a significantly hotter GPU doesn't convince me that the solution is as trivial as you are suggesting. I think I'm going to tend to side with the opinion of the engineers and designers who worked on it.

 

Its never enough power Aikimox we know that and especially with Macbooks.

You get what you get and nothing more. Now its no upgrading at all which honestly is fine with me, it just means less tinkering and more time enjoying .

Clearly this is not the machine for you based on all your posts i have read. Between the mediocre screen(by your standards) to the lack of being able to upgrade/expand etc .

You need to set your sites on on what ever HP has cooking and stick with that.

 

You missed the part when I said Apple only needed to bump it by 50$+50gr to get 30-50% GPU boost

Hey Brother Quad,

You are right...mostly. However, there are games out there already that put the 650M on its knees. How about the Secret World (streets of London) 2012, Ghost Recon (F.S.) 2012, Max Payne 3 2012, Risen 2 Dark Waters 2012, Dirt Shutdown 2012, Alan Wake 2012, Metro, Witcher 2. There are many more titles coming this year and will surely add to the list. Even 1-2 year old games like Crysis 2, Skyrim and BF3 can't be maxed out completely in every scene @ 1920x1200 (forget anything higher)

How about the fact that tinkering along is a joy for many people? Having the option to change and upgrade components, makes the notebook more versatile and adjustable to ones needs. I don't wish to be deprived of that.

HP? dunno, their current line of Elitebooks is ok but I'm thinking about Dell Precisions, if they ever get released.

Now, in all seriousness, I was ready to grab a rMBP. Was ready to accept the mid-range Nvidia GPU, soldered CPU and GPU, would even tolerate the absence of high gamut screens. But 2 things killed it for me:

1) soldered RAM - My current job involves hardcore virtualization and 32GB RAM is going to be a must in a few months

2) No matte screen option - Comes with the job, I'm often on the go and even mild reflections can affect my productivity. Had to ditch the MBA and switched to a W510 with RGBLED matte. Great machine, but I need more power

 

Yep and for all the reasons you pointed out this is not the computer for you .

It is really that simple because if you keep talking about all the things it does not have, that you personally need, nothing will change and it will still offer the same options, unless Apple is watching this thread and secretly building the Ailkimox special edition RMBP .