Getting a new laptop and have a couple of Mac OS X questions, in case I get a MBP.

Hi everyone. I'm about to get a new laptop this month and for the first time in 11 years, I am actively considering something other than a ThinkPad. I really like the idea of getting HP's new powerhouse workstation (the 8740w) with its (still unconfirmed) 10-bit IPS DreamColor display, but when HP announced its availability in March, they literally couldn't deliver. Same story in May, and when they finally took orders for it in late June, the shipping ETA is now July/early August. What a joke.

For this and other reasons, I am seriously considering a MacBook Pro (specifically the 17" WUXGA model). Personally, I have always liked Windows and from an IT standpoint, I find Windows 7 appealing from a stability and security standpoint. So what about OS X. Apple has seen a resurgence of the Mac in recent years, and while it continues to be wildly popular amongst the growing number of loyal Mac enthusiasts, statistical information shows that a full 50% are actually new to the Mac, and therefore new to OS X as well. I've done a little bit of research but I always run into these so-called "fanboys" (what about the girls?) of both Mac and Windows, whose apparent and unhelpful hatred of the "opposing platform" gets in the way of any meaningful insight.

With that out of the way, according to several articles I've read, the Mac OS is often times a significant reason for some people to switch to the Mac and stay with the Mac. At the same time, a dislike of Windows operating systems is sometimes a reason for a quite a few people to switch to the Mac as well. Are there any people who switched to the Mac and were disappointed and came back to Windows? I thought you could run Windows on any Intel-based Mac anyway, so why do some people switch back? Then there are those who suggest that OS X is sometimes quite a bit faster and significantly more robust than Windows. Really? Yet others claim that Microsoft still keeps copying OS X for its own Windows OS. Is that true?

I'd really love to hear as to why some people consider Mac OS X superior when compared to Windows 7.

Finally, what about Apple's hardware configurations these days? Compared to five years ago, have they have come down in price a little as far as bang-for-your-buck is concerned? Do you think you're getting your money's worth?

I could really use some help with deciding as to what notebook would best suit me, so I'd love to hear some real stories and some solid information, particularly because if I go with a MacBook Pro, I'll be getting into a different and unfamiliar operating system.

I thank you in advance for your advice.

 

I'll see if I can answer your concerns. I've used both Windows and Mac for a long time.

There are many reasons people stick with Mac hence the "once you go Mac, you never go back" That being said the Mac OS is appealing because for one, it's very simple and beginner friendly. The learning curve is alot more gentle than any Windows OS [Even though Microsoft made great strides with Windows 7 with regards to simplicity]. The Mac OS is also alot lighter than Windows 7 and generally snappier [I imagine that using OS X with an SSD must be crazy fast].

The Apple experience as a whole seems alot more fluid with great technical support, quick shipping of notebooks, and generally helpful employees.

The notebooks themselves are built solidly and generally just work, and have very high resale value. They have good screens, keyboards, and battery life. Not to mention they have an awesome form factor.

Of course all of this comes at a steep price as you already know. Repairs that aren't under warranty are expensive and AppleCare ain't cheap. The notebooks themselves are hundreds of dollars more expensive than their Windows counterparts.

Is the extra money worth the "Apple experience"? That's for you to say.

As for "run Windows on any Intel-based Mac". That's true, but it sucks. Battery life is cut in half or more and there tends to be driver issues as well as overheating, not to mention crappy touchpad functionality.

As for OS X being more "robust" than Windows, I'd take issue with that. For lack of a better word, OS X can be classified as a "closed" system. There are tons more programs available on Windows and OS X isn't quite the OS of choice for many professions because of that. But I expect that to change as OS X becomes more and more popular and developer see the need to port programs to it to keep sales.

However, for the average users, there are plenty of Mac counterparts to Windows programs that should suffice.

I would give you my story with Apple. But it would probably result in you becoming a permanent Windows guy.

 

Just picked up a 13" (MC374LL) MBP openbox unit for $899. It looks brand spanking new, was a customer return at Microcenter. For $899 this thing is an excellent buy for its build quality. This thing just exudes quality by merely laying my hands on it. Close the screen and it gives the most satisfying solid muted thud like slamming the door on a quality German car. The screen is real glass which makes it very easy to clean without worrying about scratching it even with a microfiber cloth. The giant touchpad is so responsive and is silky smooth to touch. I haven't done anything with it other than installing iWorks and iLife and surf with Safari, but this thing feels very responsive surfing the web. Bottomline, build quality wise this is far above any PC laptops I've ever put my hands onto, including HP Envy and the Sony Z (although the Z is a 3lbs chassis, can't expect it to feel rock solid). Battery life seems to be pretty amazing. From a full charge I messed around with it for ~3 hours, installed iWork and iLife from DVD, put the thing to sleep overnight, it still had 60% charge in the morning. The charger connector is even cooler than last year's model.

Now onto the OS X, which is my third try. If you're not into fiddling with the OS, OS X is perfect for you. But if you're into highly tweaking your OS and are new to OS X, it may be a steep learning curve as I've learned that many custom options are accessible only via terminal commands (not that I'm a stranger to the cmd prompt in Windows). Tweaking stuff in Windows in the registry is far easier than having to know the exact command to turn off CD/DVD burning verification (someone was asking that in another thread).

My first two tries with OS X (the white Macbook two years ago, and the 13 MBP last year) I felt totally lost, because *I* need to be in control and couldn't figure out the things I'm used to doing with Windows, stuff I know like the back of my hand. I'll dust off that book I bought for Leopard last year and see if I can get into it this time.

So far this is the way I feel about OS X - if you don't care how things work and just want everything managed for you, this is your OS.

PS even new MC374LL is $999 at Microcenter right now. Since that openbox looked brand new I opted to save another $100.

 

I'm very curious. Mind sharing your story?

 

I don't consider either of them to be superior, I consider them to be good for different things. I find the Mac OS X experience smoother than windows generally, and I enjoy the built in media tools (pictures, movie, music) more than the windows equivalent. However this is because Mac OS X is a closed system - you lose the ability to customize a lot of things as easily as in windows (it can be done, but has a much steeper learning curve than the windows equivalent), and you lose out on a lot of software options. Currently I have a mac for media stuff, and a windows computer for games + productivity applications. I am actually slowing moving away from Mac OS X because I find I prefer the options that windows offers, as opposed to the closed apple environment.

Also, with regards to booting into bootcamp to use windows - its annoying an impractical to split your files between two operating systems on the same disc, besides taking up a lot of space. I did it for years and really hated it.

In terms of security Mac OS X is no more secure than windows - there just happens to be a lot less malware out there that targets it. Here is a relevant article: The Mac Hacker Strikes Again - Forbes.com

Mac computers are generally overpriced if you look at pure technical specs - you can generally get similar windows systems for hundreds cheaper. That said, you do get the design and form factor of apple computers, and that is something that will have a different value depending on who you ask. You are also paying for the ability to use the Mac OS X operating system (you can put it on a windows machine just fine, but it is technically illegal according to apple ... ).

This very much depends on what you will using it for. You say you are in IT, but that could mean a lot of things. Treat it as you would treat a windows computer in terms of specs that you go for, screen size, etc. Remember - the hardware is the same, its just the chasis + operating system that is really different.

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In terms of my personal experience with macs, I've had the highest-level 15'' for about 7 years now, with a few replacements along the way. I highly recommend you pay the extra $$ for applecare. I didn't with my first model which I bought back in '03, and I ended up spending near $2k in repairs to it before it was stolen (just about everything that could break did break). Insurance paid for a replacement mac in '07, and I got the highest level 15'' available then. This time I did buy applecare, and thank goodness. I had the motherboard, the hard drive, the superdrive, the monitor and more break on me. Incredibly shoddy products, both of those macs. In '09 I qualified for a free replacement mac, which wasn't really a replacement nor free - I had to pay hundreds to get a discrete videocard again to get similar performance as my second mac. Oh well. So in '09 I got my third 15'', again at the highest specs. So far I've had to send it in for repairs twice I believe - once for faulty ram, and once for a faulty hard drive (at least I think its twice, without digging out my receipts - I know I had the hard drive replaced, but the RAM may have been my previous model as well).

So, to summarize - top level 15'' macs, and double digit component failures between them. I always take good care of my electronics, but I do push them a bit - no overclocking or anything like that, but I make full use of their capabilities.

I don't know if this experience is common or not (though a few years ago I saw statistics indicating that the top tier 15'' macs fail a lot more than other families), but it has been my consistent experience across multiple laptops and through seven years of using them.

 

Since i grew up learning to use both OSes at the same time, i don't have any confusions about either, but i have to say that working on OSX has given me a far more productive experience.

 

I also grew up using both OSes, but it is definitely harder to tweak/customize Mac OS X than windows. On the other hand, ideally you shouldn't have to tweak/customize Mac OS X at all.

 

i agree with this part " windows for productivity , mac for media stuff ( including editing media " , about the bootcamp part , i just wanted to say that u don't need to split ur files just make a partition for ur data ( mac journaled ), buy mac drive install it on windows and u ll be able to write on the media partition , or u could format it FAT 32 and then NTFS from windows and install paragon NTFS on mac and u ll be able to access the partition

 

Problem was more the switching to use programs on whichever partition, and all the space you had to devote to each side for the OS + stable operations (you usually want about 10-20% of your HDD space free to ensure smooth and stable operation ... and if you do that for both partitions ... ).

Its a really good solution if there are just a few windows programs you want to run in a native windows environment, but its not so good if you have more than a few.

 

True. I don't ever feel the need to add in or change things apple already provides with OS X.

On the other hand, I almost always have to customize my Windows OS for me to feel comfortable working with it. The stock OS settings just don't satisfy my needs i guess. Although tweaking windows really does not require any effort at all.

 

If you need to find out anything about Mac OS, or you have problems with software, you can look through Mac How articles or submit your how-to...
I hope it will help you.

 

I recently switched to a MBP 13 (been a Windows guy my whole life.. since I got my first virus at age 4).

Here are the main reasons I switched:

Portability: I found nothing at the price that could match the form factor, quality, and battery life of the MBP.

Quality:: I simply wanted something that worked, that looks nice and feels solid. The MBP 13 certainly delivers in this area.

Repair service:: My college has an Apple store on campus, so if anything goes wrong it should be a quick fix. Huge deal to me.

Keyboard: I wanted a quality keyboard.. similar models (like Asus) simply couldn't deliver in this area.

Webcam + Mic: My last laptop had a pretty bad mic.. I wanted something that I knew worked. People with Macs never seemed to have issues with the webcam or mic.. and neither do I.


Concerns when I bought:

Gaming
Performance (specs)

These were my main problems.. it would be slower than my previous laptop (Core 2 duo + 320m vs. i5 + 5850.. HUGE difference). In general it seems to be just as snappy.. but I have yet to heavily photoshop. We'll see how it holds up in time..

 

I am in the same boat. I thought I was going to go with HP's latest workstation, the 8740w, but they literally couldn't deliver. Now that they are shipping, there are problems with the RAM, which cause random crashes with no predictability, and the battery life of any 17" PC workstation is abysmal. Why even have a battery? The most it'll be good for is take a Lenovo W700 or W701, a Dell M6500, or an HP 8740w, from one room to another and back to the power cord.

The three laptops I listed above are all 17" workstations and they share one more trait: They are all more expensive than the Apple MacBook Pro 17" WUXGA model. As far as specs are concerned, it is true that Apple does not make a single quad-core notebook yet and, perhaps more of an issue for the gamers and AutoCAD folks, is the fact that 512MB of dedicated VRAM is the most that you're going to get on Apple's highest end laptop.

I suppose if you're a gamer, you don't want a MacBook anyway since you're going to have to install Windows on its own disk or at least partition due to the lack of a good selection of games. As for high-end graphics design artists, I suppose you'll have to find out as to what extent the lack of a stronger GPU applies to you and/or as to how patient a person you are.

 

There was a recent study where Apple came 4th in reliability for laptops, barely more reliable than Dell. Given Dell's consumer line reputation for .. uh.. shoddy quality, I'd beware about any sort of grand claim on superior workmanship.

Anyway, my experience with Macs seem to agree; overall same sort of reliability as their PC counterparts. Nothing like business-class notebooks, had one that lasted 6 years, until I misplaced it.

But OSX is a plus

 

Huh? MacBook's in 4th place behind what, ThinkPad's I would guess? I can definitely see that, but what else, though? HP?

Quick OT question: Do IPS screens consume more power than your regular TN displays?

 

HP's engineers seem to think so: when I was configuring an 8540w, they make you select a 150w power supply when you select the DreamColor 2 option. Normally, the 8540w ships with a 90w power supply when configured with the FX 880M or a 120w power supply when configured with the FirePro M5800 or the FX 1800M.

I don't know the actual answer though.

 

Hmm...That's interesting. Maybe that's why Apple has not put IPS screens into their MBP line!? It seems to be hugely important to Apple to have its notebooks' batteries lasting forever. And that's of course not a bad thing, but I wonder if it comes at a cost, whether it be the screen type, a more powerful CPU and/or GPU, or something else. Does this make any sense or am I just totally wrong? (I'm really hoping that I am wrong!)

Then again, the iPad and iPhone 4 even have LED and IPS, and their respective battery life is awesome.

What to do, what to do...???

 

I think that it just costs too much for them to put an IPS screen in the MBP line. Apple is used to operating on large margins and a standard IPS screen would make MBPs less profitable.

 

Laptop Reliability Study (Square Trade).

On the 6th page of the PDF.

Asus > Toshiba > Sony > Apple @ 4th place]

 

I realize that cost was the reason for every laptop manufacturer, especially when Lenovo claimed not to be able to find a "reliable source" for its FlexView IPS displays and stopped sourcing them as a result in 2006.

However, since E-IPS was introduced this January, the cost factor was supposedly dealt with for the most part. I thought that LG was ramping up to make tons of IPS screens, such as the DreamColor 2, including for other notebook manufacturers. Does anyone have any additional information?

 

Wow, I don't know how I can take that seriously with Asus and Toshiba (of all brands) declared the winners of "most reliable" laptop. lol...Then they allege that Lenovo is supposedly quite bad according to their conclusion.

 

they are trying to sell warranties... since Dell and HP are the biggest, and most potential of buying warranties, they don't want to make them look too reliable, then people will think they don't need a warranty.

I don't trust any research done by squaretrade, they are a rip off warranty in the first place.

 

Very interesting theory. That would certainly explain as to why Apple's MacBook Pro line finds itself "neck-and-neck" with...Dell with both companies vying for that coveted 4th spot! lol...another wildly improbable assertion.

And what do you mean you don't trust SquareTrade? It happens to be ebay's and Paypal's choice for those companies' efforts to ensure impartiality when a transaction goes awry. Fairness is at the heart of Paypal's essence. That's not at all about money.

 

its not full coverage... is why I do not like them. They only cover a max dollar value for the price of the machine. you get a 3 year warranty, but have a couple of failures that need to be fixed in the 2nd year, you can use up the warranty and its gone for the 3rd year... thats what I call a rip off warranty. If i want a warranty, i want to be completely covered for the time frame i pay for... not a dollar value or time frame, whichever comes first like Square trade

 

Its a simple counting of how many laptop owners reported failure (hardware malfunction) to SquareTrade. They routinely release information about failure rates.

No research there. Take the numbers and reason however you want to, but fabricating data?

You seriously think they're fabricating data?

EDIT:
Here's my guess:
Asus owners are more likely to overclock, or replace their components, meaning they're likely to void their warranty. Also, their Eee trashbooks happen to be the most reliable netbook out there.

Whereas Mac owners are more keen to rely on warranties, as most computer techies may not be able to repair a Macbook, warranty being their first (and possibly only) choice.

Dell's low failure rate is probably because of their prominent (and reliable) business line, which outnumbers their consumerline, which pulls their percentage down.

Toshiba's high position is because they tend to sell premiumly priced laptops, which are generally more reliable than the budget laptops made by HP.

 

when did I say they were fabricating data... its very easy to use statistics to get a point access that you choose to, even if the data doesn't seem to support it.

They took a sample of "over 30,000" that they call random.. because it was "random" from their customers... so they should only be commenting on what their customers can expect, because it was not a random sample over all laptops sold. They also mixed all netbooks in with laptops... they said they had a minimum of 1000 of each brand (no telling if the majority were $300 or $3000 machines)... meaning these top 2 performers could have gotten a lucky selection with 1000 machines, while the worst performer of HP could have had 15,000 machines... or visa versa... who knows, they wont say. They also wont give any margin for error, or how they calculated or projected stuff and what margin it should be. Most all of the data there is so close in that sample, there isn't a significant difference more than likely (not enough data presented for sure). They made the study to show the 3 year 'projected' failure rate, to try and make it look high, to help get sales.... giving as little info as possible. Is it wrong info? no.. doubtfully... is it misleading? very likely. People love using statistics to scare people into giving them money.

 

I don't understand where this comes from. I haven't encountered the productivity application on Windows for which there is no OSX equivalent.

it was a worry of mine when I switched a couple of months ago, but not now at all. MS Office 2011 is great, all of my Adobe apps are available, most Autodesk apps I need, media playback, financial apps, etc.

idunno...what apps are you guys using that make you feel like you need to use Windows for your serious stuff? just curious.

 

I agree with you 100% but how are you using MS Office 2011? It's not out yet.

 

Probably a beta or something. It could have been leaked if that's not the case.

 

I guess it depends on what definition of "productivity" you subscribe to. I'm exaggerating here of course but if by "productivity" you mean the task of running defrag, reg cleaners, windows update, malware software definition updates, scans etc.... then yes, absolutely, you're more productive on Windows.

I have Windows 7 and OSX on the same machines, like them both, and I go back and forth between them often, but my windows time is now generally spent mainly doing the aforementioned stuff. Just about everything else is done on the OSX side.

 

Asus makes MoBo's for MacBooks.

 

Office 2011 Beta. you'll be well pleased when the final release comes out. look forward to it.

 

Well, being a Beta, I figured that as much, my question is how was it acquired since there's no downloadable beta from Microsoft.com or Mactopia.com?

 

MSDN and technet would be my guess, thats where all the good stuff hides at

 

Maybe MSDN (?) but definitely not TechNet. I just checked my subscription and there's no Mac software at all, every variation of Office you can think of but no Office for Mac. Must be an invite into a closed Beta maybe?

 

correct

as well as some MSDN subscriptions ( MicroSoft Developer Network )

 

Come to think of it, I remember seeing something like Office 2011 accepting invites last year (didn't mention Mac AFAIR) on my dashboard on MS Connect. I remember just ignoring it thinking that it would show up on my TechNet. Kinda wish I paid more attention to it. Oh well.