Apple: The Same Parts for More! :D

Changing the starter of this thread by reason of request.

I've noticed that the majority of parts found in Apple notebooks are in all honestly plucked from the same bin as those used by the OEMs like Dell, Toshiba, and HP. These include the screen (LG/Samsung), RAM (Corsair), processor (Intel), graphics (nVidia), and most likely certain others. In addition, the Applecare warranty really does seem to be underdeveloped to the point of negligence in that for $350 it covers neither accidental damage and is immediately rendered invalid upon any upgrading of the machine that isn't directly done through Apple at their pricing scheme.

What is it, then, that makes Apples worth the money spent on them? I mean, custom features are fine and all, but they've drummed up enough reports of errors in and of themselves, such as electricity frying through the Mag'safe' power cord and melting it. I've been seriously considering buying a computer from Apple, as they come the closest to having all of the features I desire on a machine, but it just seems that for the price that certain aspects of their production seem lax, sadly even in comparison to companies such as HP.

 

You sure do like to hound the grim.

Anyhow, yeah, Apple computers are a little more expensive. However, they compete in the open market and people are free to, and people do, buy other computers from other makers.

PS the "faulty logic" board was a few iBooks ago.

A few things you get with Apple that you don't get, or don't easily get with PC laptops:

included bluetooth (always an option with Dell)
included n wireless
gigabit ethernet
DVI out
backlit keyboard on mbp
built-in webcam
better resale value
better design
than fanciest packaging in the the computer, or any most other industry, lolz
can run OS X, linux and Windows

I've owned Macs since my 7100/66 and yeah, they are a little more expensive, but, I must like them, I've owned about 15 of them by now.

I like PC too, I build my own desktops, which I love doing and I've usually have a PC laptop in the stable as well.

It's a big free world out there, buy what you want.

 

well i suppose apple is good a packing their stuff down into a small, light, attractive box... maybe its the OS? (j/k).

No i wouldn't be able to tell you why.

 

If I bought a MacBook Pro and the event ever came up where Apple refused to take responsibility and fix it in the event of something going faulty, I'd feel it was my responsibility to turn the local Apple store into a smoking crater.

Also, the resale value is only high because Apple says it is.

 

There's no point in breaking it down like that because those parts alone give most consumers very little utility. If you buy a graphics card, it's useless if you don't have a computer to put it in!

Apple computers are generally a bit pricier than PC counterparts because you're paying for the design of the machine, the tight integration between hardware/software, the OS, etc. This is why an Apple machine is more expensive than say, an Acer laptop with the same specs.

 

Wow. I see that you're certainly not a person to mess around with. Way too tough for me.

/takes his MBP off to another, more pleasant corner of NBR where he can feel free to post without having to consider offending any macho, he-man, pc-types, or dodging smoking craters

 

OSx is the big thing that makes the price jump worth it. Also MBPs have backlit keyboards, light sensors, data protection on the HD, two finger scrolling, arguably the best design on the market. Macs just have a lot of little things that may or may not be important to you.

 

I love the design of the Macs, but it's the simply fact that so many people seem to have so many varied problems with Apple's products, and that Apple seems to like to slide away from the responsibilities of their warranty.

I am not, as bmwrob so put it, some 'macho, he-man, pc-type'. I am, if anything, fairly neutral. The matter is, that while I love how OS X 10.5 feels and looks, if I was to buy a MBP, it'd bring about a fair bit of debt. For $2,000, if something happened and I couldn't get it fixed or replaced, there goes my entire life and sanity.

 

Apple's come with a one year warranty and they handle their warranty claims like any other manufacturer. Just because you enjoy trolling, doesn't mean you have to burn the house down.

I've sold 13 of the 15 Macs I've owned. I can personally tell you that they are easy to sell and that they sell for a fair price.

Anytime I try to sell a Dell or one of my home build PC desktops, even if it's a good one with decent specs, it's a giant lowballer parade.

 

I had a video card go bad in my dual 2GHz G5 tower. I took it to my Apple store and they replaced the video card. I have never had any other issue with any of my macs.

They come with a one year warranty, so if something happens, they fix it.

If you are too poor to buy a MBP, then that's on you. Don't blame Apple. Just buy a used Dell or get a better job.

 

Try finding me another 13.3" laptop with good build quality and reputation, standard Bluetooth+EDR, standard wireless N, standard T7200, slot-loading optical drive, DVI, built-in webcam, and Firewire, and then tell me how expensive Apple notebooks are. I think the closest competitors you will find are the Dell XPS 1330 and the Sony Vaio TZ, both of which are much more expensive than the Macbook, especially if you get the Apple Student Discount.

It isn't Apple's options that makes them seem expensive; it's their lack of options. The Macbook is meant to be a good consumer laptop that is affordable for the mainstream. The Macbook Pro is meant to be a mobile workstation in a slim and easy-to-carry package (not to mention great battery life). They don't have any super-cheap laptops like Acers and Gateways, and they don't have any powerful mainstream laptops at the cost of mobility and design like the Inspiron 1520. They cater to different markets, where the price is actually quite competitive. This is one of the reasons their market share remains small.

 

Actually, Apple's share of the laptop market has been increasing the last few years. They are still nowhere near Dell or HP, but I think it's increasing.

 

I am aware that it is increasing, but as you say, it's still nowhere near Dell or HP. Increasing from a small amount is still a small amount.

 

Well, Dell and HP are Windows computers and Windows DOMINATES.

Choosing an Apple also means changing operating systems. I know Boot Camp and virtualization, but most users still want to open the box and start using the computer.

12% of the market

17.6% share

29% of "premium" segment"

I'm used to Mac hanging out around 4% for the last ~20 years, so, these numbers are fairly significant...

 

I've asked this before and the OP's never seem to have an answer. If you are going to slam Apple for being expensive for the same hardware then explain to us first why Sony (being Windows only) charges a king's ransom for the same hardware with lower specs? At least Apple's machines dual boot, what's Sony's excuse? Please answer because you have to be fair if you are asking Mac users to justify Apple's pricing.

 

I used to be a Toshiba fanatic and loved them because I ONLY owned Toshiba, until I got my Macbook pro. The only comparable laptop to the MBP or MB, are Lenovo T61/T61p in my opinion. My next notebook will surely be one of those two.

 

Sony's never had an excuse. I write them off in any potential purchasing decisions I ever have to make.

 

Please do not let this thread get out of hand. These have a habit of going down hill quickly.

The OP seems to be considering a Mac and is curious what he is getting for the money, so please inform him of your opinions and keep it civil.

 

those numbers are for "US retail" the 4% your used to is a world number for "retail"
ALL apple numbers are up! just correcting your perception

 

Sony's excuses are design and innovation. Those might not be good excuses, but that's all they got.

Apple has design and innovation, but they also have hands-on customer support (if you live near an Apple store), class-leading portability in a 15" desktop replacement, an OS designed around the hardware (not the other way around), and flawless implementation of certain technologies, such as Bluetooth.

 

Changing the starter of this thread by reason of request.

I've noticed that the majority of parts found in Apple notebooks are in all honestly plucked from the same bin as those used by the OEMs like Dell, Toshiba, and HP. These include the screen (LG/Samsung), RAM (Corsair), processor (Intel), graphics (nVidia), and most likely certain others. In addition, the Applecare warranty really does seem to be underdeveloped to the point of negligence in that for $350 it covers neither accidental damage and is immediately rendered invalid upon any upgrading of the machine that isn't directly done through Apple at their pricing scheme.

What is it, then, that makes Apples worth the money spent on them? I mean, custom features are fine and all, but they've drummed up enough reports of errors in and of themselves, such as electricity frying through the Mag'safe' power cord and melting it. I've been seriously considering buying a computer from Apple, as they come the closest to having all of the features I desire on a machine, but it just seems that for the price that certain aspects of their production seem lax, sadly even in comparison to companies such as HP.

 

The extra cost is for the SteveJobs Decoder Ring , Mac OS and the way kooler design.....
Engineering costs for Mac products are definately higher....

 

Apple's margins are high by any measure.

Companies in many diverse industries are envious of Apple for their margins.

Their margins are not exactly a secret.

In general they do re-invest a fair amount of their money into R&D although their R&D is much lower since they got in bed with Intel.

They are redesigning the power supply, so, it's a non-issue.

Dell charges extra for their accidental coverage, it is not part of their warranty either.

 

One thing that is nice about Sony notebooks is their warranties. You can get a 3 year on-site and accidental damage protection warranty for $299. It is even cheaper through resellers. I've read that their service is terrible, but who cares if they still replace it after having it for two years, then dropping, stepping, and/or spilling something all over it one day.

 

Well I can't give you a real reason as to why Apple feels the need to charge more but as far as fit, finish and design they do give you your money's worth. Still to this day no Windows machine matches the aluminum design of the MBP, the iMac, the Mac mini and even the high quality plastics of the Macbook.

But back to the question from the OP. As far as Apple's reason for their prices, that's their decision but why myself as well as others are willing to pay for Apple's computers has always been for one thing, the legendary Mac OS. I have been using the Mac OS since version 8.5 and loved it so much that I was willing to go through the entire transition over to version X. I have never felt the need to compare spec for spec to Windows machines because I don't use Windows. So the Mac OS is why I am willing to pay and to me it's worth what Apple charges.

The OP's question really doesn't apply to true Mac users, it really applies to people that don't care to use the Mac OS otherwise there's no reason to be comparing specs and asking if the Mac is worth what Apple charges when other options are out there.

 

Technically these days you don't really even need a Mac to run OS X. Not endorsing it, just saying it.

 

The average user is not going to go Hackintosh.

Why do I suspect that you know the answers to the questions you have posed?

 

Just saying. Apple forced people into having to make Hackintoshes. I mean, most schools and universities with Mac labs use Hackintoshes.

I actually have been thinking of purchasing a MacBook Pro. Been hanging around the Apple store and checking the machines. Really nice, I fully admit. It's just... $2000 is $2000.

 

Ya know, if that's your M.O then whatever but I prefer to buy and use what's supported legally by the company I buy it from. I don't condone that and bringing that up is totally not what the OP's question is about. This hacking topic in regards to OS X really needs to come to an end.

 

I doubt that...

 

I am the original poster. It isn't my 'M.O' to do anything of the sort. I'm just saying. Yes, OS X is great software, and it's the software I'm mostly interested in. However, as the topic of the thread goes, the hardware doesn't seem to match up well enough to make it worth it all.

I am not endorsing piracy by mentioning the fact. I'm not saying I do it, as I don't. I'm not saying anyone should do it, as they shouldn't. I'm simply stating that it isn't just me that has problems with the pricing. Give me some solid reasoning to want to buy from Apple past fanchatter on the HARDWARE.

 

I know my university runs like 200 or more. I have confirmation from 15 other universities that they are in the same way.

 

Honestly, I highly doubt ANY university actually runs OS X on non-Apple hardware.

Also, even consumers who do, do so with limited success. Some say the experience is fine, others say it is terrible. Either way, it is unsupported and requires a fair amount of hacking and upkeep, so most users would never even think to do it.

If you really want to know why Macs cost more, all you have to do is look at Apple's business model. They are a hardware company, they make their money on hardware. That is why they force OS X to only Apple hardware. They are smart enough to know that in order to make money on hardware, they need to one differentiate themselves, and two, have margins that actually make them money. Look at Dell, they sell a ton of computers, but don't make any money due to their razor thin margins.

So what is the upshot? If you want OS X, get a Mac. If not, then I would look elsewhere. The premium price is for OS X, and to a lesser degree the experience (customer support, ease of use, etc.).

 

Fanchatter? Please.

The reason I hang out here is that this Apple subforum has some of the most reasonable Mac people I've ever found anywhere. Most of us are experienced computer users, on several platforms, and are well aware of the limitations of Apple's product and their method of doing business.

Take any company or take any product and draw up a list of good things and bad things. Both sides always exist.

We don't owe you "solid reasoning" on why you should by an Apple. If the reasons (and many were given that come nowhere near fanchatter, some were even self-deprecating) given in the past several pages do nothing for you, then maybe an Apple is not right for you.

The Dell Inspiron 1520 is quite similar to the MacBook Pro and is several hundred dollars cheaper, especially if you use a good coupon.

 

Instead of you having us convince you why you should want a Mac regardless of Apple's pricing why not tell us why YOU want a Mac? There must be some interest on your part? You tell us. You're basically asking the forums to sell you on Apple's pricing, we are not salespeople for Apple. You have to tell us what your interest is.

 

My interest in Mac OS X was mainly because I need something stable for a mobile platform, and OpenOffice's version of PowerPoint sucks, ruling Linux out.

 

Not necessarily. I've no experience with this particular piece of software, but CrossOver for the Mac works pretty well.

 

for me buying a 13" MacBook (coming from a history of building PCs for over 10 years) the selling points, in no particular order, were:

Fast boot - circa 10 seconds and it's ready to go.
Compact - ok so other 13" laptops give you that.
Nice design - IMO it does look better than any other 13" laptop out there.
Everything I need is built in - draft N wifi, mini HDMI out, Bluetooth.
Reduced risk of contracting viruses/malware/trojans etc.
User friendly OS - even my technophobe fiance learnt it in minutes!
Networks with my PC.
It's very quiet.
FrontRow is a neat thing too with the remote.
A bonus for me was using wifi network to stream music from my PC (2 floors up) to iTunes on my macbook and then via Airport Express (at extra cost) to my speakers wirelessley.

Personally I do think it is good value for money.

 

I know this post is more geared toward hardware than software and OS, BUT ...

With the advent of Vista and the on-going problems with viruses, bugs, scumware, etc., I am steering some of my clients (those whose business needs aren't OS dependent) toward Macs and OS X. Why? Startup costs are higher, but over the life cycle, costs are lower because I don't have to come out and clean their machines from the junk I (reluctantly) associate with a Windows platform. I doubt that I will ever embrace Vista - just too much of what an OS shouldn't be. I personally will run XP until they pry it from my cold dead fingers -- obviously, not on my Pismo!

I too share your concerns about some build quality issues in the recent past that seem to have been slightly glossed over here -- discolored Macbooks, bulging/exploding batteries, etc. -- and have some concerns about price.

If you ARE going to make the change, you must do so with an open mind. OS X is not Windows. It is better in some ways, but I prefer the Windows GUI - YMMV. Don't go into the experience with some bias, as I doubt that you will be able to give the new platform its due.

Just my $.02 ...

D

 

Let me answer your question. OK, first you have to get into the correct mindset. Apple products are premium products. Not unlike how Porsche and Lexus are premium automobiles. The sum of the parts doesn't necessarily equal the whole. Though with Apple you do get a lot for the money. In actuality Apples aren't as premium priced as you may think.

So people have already explained that Apples are a bit more expensive because the hardware and OS are well integrated. That is true. The cost of engineering Mac OS 10 and the perpetual software updates alone is probably more than most notebook OEMs spend in an entire year in hardware R&D. None of the OEMs are in the OS business. They don't have the costs involved with staffing over a thousand software engineers.

Don't be fooled into thinking that Dell, HP, Gateway, etc. engineer their hardware. A lot of the engineering is offloaded onto the actual ODMs like Asus, Compal, Quanta, etc. The ODM comes up with designs and works with OEMs like Dell to shape a product. The ODM re-coupes its costs when it produces the new design and sells it to the OEM. The ODM keeps the R&D costs low to maximize profit by sticking with known good designs (making subtle changes/improvements) and not really innovating.

Apple does work with ODMs as well. But Apple isn't afraid to push the envelope and challenge design issues and to use materials in new ways. Using the newest materials and designs costs money and since Apple makes fewer machines it has to pay more for materials and labor.

Here are a few examples of added cost associated with production of the MBP.

1. Extruded aluminum case. Most people notice the sleek lines of the MBP's metal case. Notice how the bottom case and the display cover have nice round corners and no sharp edges. That is because the aluminum case is hydroformed. Have you seen anyone else using the same style case? Nope, because the process is quite a bit more expensive than stamping or casting. Most other OEMs use carbon reinforced plastic or cast magnesium.

2. Backlit keyboard. Apple introduced the backlit keyboard several years ago and up until Dell released the M1730 no one else has incorporated the design element. Backlit keyboards are pricey especially one like the MBP that just works.

3. PWM fans. Just because a MBP has an Intel CPU and nVidia video card does not mean that the rest of the parts in the box are the same as everyone else. Case in point the PWM fans. The MBP has two cooling fans which is not unlike many other notebooks on the market. What separates Apple from the others is that it uses Pulse Width Modulated fans. Open up other notebooks and take a peek on the fan connector or cable. You'll most certainly (except for a small number of models) see three wires. This indicates that the fan is a normal DC fan. They work well and cool just was well as any other fan. If you look at the connector on a MBP (MB as well) you'll see four wires which indicates that it is a PWM fan. The difference between the two being that the PWM fan has finer control of its speed throughout its operating range. The most significant advantage is that a PWM fan can spin slower and has a smoother acceleration/deceleration curve than a DC fan. That translates into quiet operation. Ever wonder how Apple notebooks run their fans constantly yet you can't hear them (except when they ramp up to do some serious cooling)? This is why. Guess why hardly anyone else uses PWM fans? Yep, they cost more. Take a look at here for more details.

4. Power adapter. I'll skip over Magsafe and just mention that it can save you a bag full of $$ the first time you trip over the power cord. Chances are that if that was a regular power connector the notebook would have fallen or the connector/motherboard damaged. I want to touch on the power adapter itself. The standard MBP power adapter is 85 Watts. If you compare the size of the MBP power adapter to anyone else's 85 Watt adapter you will see a considerable size difference in the favor of the MBP. It might be a small thing (literally) but it does cost more to manufacture a compact adapter.

5. Hard drive. If you ever crack open a MBP you'll notice a strange metallic disc glued to the top of the HDD. Apple includes this wonderfully cheap and utterly simple item to help quell the vibration from the spinning HDD. A consequence of having an all metal chassis is that it is very efficient at transmitting vibrations. Apple's solution is simple but elegant. It works.

6. BT antenna. Apple is one of the few manufacturers that uses a BT antenna. While that may not seem like much it can help with data thruput and signal quality. Most OEMs incorporate an antenna on the BT daughtercard. The antenna being nothing more than a squiggle of PCB trace material left on the PCB. It works, but not well. Which would you rather have a clothes hanger screwed onto the back of your TV or an antenna mounted on the roof?

Those are just a few examples among hundreds of differences. You also have to factor in packaging (out of box experience) and Apple's award winning customer service. How much do you think it costs for the benefit of going to one of hundreds of Apple Stores around the globe for hardware assistance? Once you factor in all of the hardware, software, and customer support costs Apples aren't really over priced.

 

duffyanneal pretty much just gave you any answer you're looking for IMO.

Also keep in mind that Apple is in several different businesses; they make computers, servers, an OS, a phone, PMPs, and software. Manufacturers like Dell and HP don't do things like that to the same extent Apple does, so their overhead is much different. Most of their development is sourced from overseas, where labor costs (including engineering labor) is cheap. All Apple products are designed by U.S. engineers, which raises development costs significantly. They also charge only $129 for OS X vs. $499 for Vista Ultimate, so they have to recuperate cost somewhere.

If you want a good Analog to Apple, look at Sony. They're expensive for many the same reasons; they have a design and style that is more innovative, but also because Sony is a very outstretched company. They have game consoles, PMPs, software, phones, operating systems (the XMB system), etc, etc.

But the bottom line is that if you want bang for your buck, Apple notebooks are a great choice due to the various reasons that have been mentioned here. The big problem I have with Apple is the warranty; AppleCare is too expensive, and they should at least offer Accidental Coverage. But I don't have Accidental Coverage on my Dell, either, so I guess I wouldn't really be losing anything. Of course, if you consider that Dell gives you a standard 3yr on-site warranty through Small Business, I would think you should expect the same thing on the Macbook Pro at least.

 

You either get it (Apple), or you don't. I didn't get it, but tried one anyway. I'm a convert. The MBP was only marginally more expensive than other machines I considered, but it is just SO much better than what I expected or even hoped for. Now, if only I could finish paying for the beast to get an iMac for the desktop!

 

In all honesty the OP should be posing his topic of discussion towards Windows switchers or people that are Windows users that bought the Apple MBP. Time after time Windows users come to this forum and tell the Mac crowd that they want to buy a MBP and install Windows on it as their primary OS.
Their general reason for wanting the MBP is because of the fit and finish. Personally I think it's a lame reason when you have to consider the extra Windows license costs but some don't seem to have a problem with the Windows license costs for some reason.....clearing my throat.
At any rate those are the people that the OP should be talking to. Why are the Windows users spending the extra dough on a MBP when they could easily buy a Windows machine"?

 

Some times design inspires creativity. I would believe that's why the design is saught after by some people wishing to use only windows in a MBP. Plus I think it's a bit of a status symbol to say.. "hey.. I hate OSX.. so I took a MBP and made it into a windows machine.. pwnd!"

I was a windows user, like the majority, and searched feverishly for a Windows Notebook. In the end I compared parts and specs to suit my needs, and found the MBP to be $300 more. Why? In addition to the list a previous poster noted, MAC: is a lifestyle. The company does a fabulous job at tightly integrating periferals/accesories/software/hardware together.
It just works. My productivity with Photos/Video/and Music is flowing now. MAC makes it easy on the surface.

As for price.. it's like buying a BMW for daily commute.
It costs more than you NEED to spend, but drives like it's on rails. It's supple and responsive, and puts a smile on your face.

 

Excellent post by duffyanneal, +rep.

 

It's not always quite so insidious. Some people just think they should be able to run whatever OS they want on whatever hardware they want.

 

I'm only going to touch on the Accidental Protection Warranty comment...

Yeah, sucks they don't offer it. But it's better they not offer it and not cover accidental damage like other vendors. Gateway offeres it, but refuses to cover accidental damage under the guise that it was intentional.

But my power adapter friend and melted (the mag safe end). Apple was good and quick with replacing it. Got it 2 days later.

 

EXACTLY my thoughts

 

Heh. Is that like the perverse fetish of some people to slash BMW tires?

 

oh god, please don't, I just spent $900 on tires...