An avid Linux user/programmer considering a MacBook...

Hey everyone. First of all, this is my first post here and before making this topic I've done lots of research about MacBooks but still have a few questions.

I'll start off with a little background about myself that can influence which notebook I get next. I currently use a 5 year old HP that has XP and Ubuntu 9.04 in dual-boot and I use Linux almost exclusively. I'm a senior in college major in CS and math with plans to get a M.S. in CS. I'm not much of a gamer anymore, and if I am in the mood to game, I have a desktop/PS3 for that.

So obviously I'm in the market for a new laptop. I've always said MacBook's would be my next notebook because frankly I don't care at all for Windows. But now that it's time for me to upgrade, I'm more cautious to make the jump because I'm still a poor college student. The higher price is obviously a drawback, but I'm always curious how about software (being a programmer and all).

Since Mac's are Unix-based, I know my most used programs will run just as easily as my Linux distro (VIM, LaTeX, gcc/python/etc.) Other than having more open-source packages and an open-source kernel, I can't think of any software-related differences to OSX. Mac's of course have better proprietary (Apple, Adobe) and driver support. Leopard is one sexy and reliable operating system, and getting the iPhone SDK is a plus as well since I just upgraded to the iPhone (and love it btw).

Anyway, I know most of the advantages of getting a Mac over a PC. But not as much about getting a Mac over a PC that dual boots Linux. (BTW, I know OSX and Linux can be dual booted or Virtual Machine'd, but I prefer to just have one primary OS for work/school/fun). I'd get the $1300 13.3" MB if I got a Mac and a 3rd party memory upgrade. A similar spec'd Core 2 Duo PC runs at about half that or a little more. So it's either shell out the money for a Mac or get a PC and install Linux alongside Windows as my primary OS.

Sorry about my long post, I know I can be a little too verbose at times. But any comments/suggestions/input concerning my situation would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

If you do decide to buy one, then I strongly recommend ebay (hopefully you'll get a coupon) with cashback and ebates.

ebay coupons are around 10% off for a maximum of $100, my last coupon was 8%

cashback is anywhere from 8% (current rate) to 35% (probably will never get that high again) for a maximum of $200

ebates is 3%

ebay bucks is 2%

You can find the base unibody macbook on ebay for $1179. That's 1049.31 after 8% cashback and 3% ebates rebate. It's definitely better than buying from the Apple store and paying tax. The base unibody macbook is ~$1400 after taxes, so you'd be saving at least $350 through ebay.

 

I'd suggest you not get a MacBook unless you like the design at the cost of high price. Buy a Windows based laptop, strip windows or sell windows, then install Ubuntu. This is the best bang for the buck method.

Since you can virtualize OSX(with slight modification which will be very easy considering you're tech savy), Windows, other linux distros inside ubuntu, you don't have to buy a Mac to run all OSes.

Since you're not financially well off, getting a Windows based laptop will be cheaper and more bang for the Buck. BTW, Mac is a PC, so its hardware is 98% the same as any other similar equiped windows based laptop. If you're looking for performance, $1300 can get you a quadcore laptop if you find the right deal. Mac's hardware is behind Windows based and cost more for the same thing. Getting a similar equiped Windows based laptop as the $1300 macbook will only cost a little more than half the price like you said.

Anyways.. it's your decision. For you, Mac can be looked at as a brand of PC, like Sony, Dell, HP. Buy whatever you like the best at a comfortable price range.

 

can you please find me couple of notebooks with same spec but with 1/2 of price?

 

What's the spec of the macbook are you referring to as there are many Macbook? Usually, it's fairly easy to find a comparable laptop for half the price, especially the high end ones.

 

base one please.

 

What's the spec for base one?

 

Ya, dont make me laugh, the Dell Studio Xps with the same specs is the same price as the Macbook so their aint any pc laptops that are half the price of a Macbook!

 

no offense,but if you don't know the spec.,how can you make comments like this-

Anyway,OT:getting apples from ebay is very smart thing! f.e I got my 2.4 unibody for ~1000$ with cashback!

 

Anyways.. here's some laptops to compare:
High end ultraportables: (expensive, better build quality than Macs)
http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/...002645:&smid=5FEAB3DBB1BC4207A10ABD80810E13FC
Thinpad X200-12.1", core2duo p8600 2.4ghz 3MB L2 Cache, 2GB of DDR3 8500 RAM, Vista, 160GB HDD, Wireless AGN, $1145

Better speced thinkpads like T400 and T500 can be had for around $850.
http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/...pad-laptops-for-small-business&cid=US1A20399&

There are tonnes more as well. Thinkpads are just an example.

 

I don't memorize the minimum specs for all laptops.

Ebay is different from buying from manufacture. You can probably get a new "2.4Ghz laptop" for half the price.
E.g. http://cgi.ebay.com/Dell-Studio-15-...goryZ177QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-DELL-INSPIR...goryZ177QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-Pavilion-dv5...goryZ177QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Again, these are just examples. They're all below the price of macbook yet offers same or better hardware.

 

Remember to apply $400+ coupon which Dell usually offers in the check-out. Once you factoring the coupons...etc Highend Mac books are sometimes twice as expensive as a comparable computer.

 

HI
I am not sure how did you know that there are notebooks have the same specs as macbook's, but with only 1/2 of the macbook's price without even knowing what the maacbook's specs are?

 

I'm saying you can find ones that are 1/2 the price of Macbook with similar specs, especially the high end ones. I'm not talking about a specific model of Macbook. I'm making a generalization.

I've also given you guy a lot of examples already. Those windows based laptop are about 50% the price of similar equipped macbook. I've covered majoirty of sizes for portable laptops: 12.1 ultraportable (since it's ultraportable, i've labled it to be more expensive), 14" and 15" (both are about half the price of the best macbook). The price difference will be even greater when you upgrade Macbook to the maximum configurations.

For the lowest end aluminum Macbook: Priced $1299 from Apple
A better HP laptop (in terms of hardware) from bestbuy: $699
That's almost 50% cheaper, 54% to be exact.
From a pure bang for the buck and performance point of view, Macs are horrible PCs.

If you want to compare the 13" Alumium macbook with another 13" windows based notebook:
Let's say Dell XPS m1330 (gaming high end laptop. repeat high end) vs Macbook 13.3 alumium (not very high end in Mac family)
http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xpsnb_m1330?c=us&cs=19&l=en&ref=lthp&s=dhs
vs
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook
Fair enough right? Comparing a high end 13" Windows based laptop vs macbook 13" alumium

Now let's take a look at the price:
Lowest preconfigured option:
Macbook 13" aluminum- "Intel Core 2 Duo 2.0ghz, 2GB DDR3 Memory ,160GB hard drive, NVIDIA 9400M IGP
Dell XPS M1330 13" - Intel core2duo T6400 2.0ghz, 3GB DDR2 ram, 320GB hdd, intel x3100 IGP
$749 vs $1299 or 57.6% price difference.

Highiest preconfigured option:
Macbook 13" alumium - Core 2 Duo 2.4ghz, 2GB DDR3, 250GB hard drive, GeForce 9400M integrated graphics
Dell XPS 13" M1330 - Core2duo 2.1ghz, 4GB DDR2, 500GB hdd, Geforce 8400M GS dedicated graphic card
$1049 vs $1599 - 65% price difference.
This isn't quite a fair comparison because the windows computer has much better specs except in processor area.

There's dell inspron 13 which is a lower class than XPS series. You'll probably get the price down to around 1/2 easily especially for the high end ones.

Xirurg recommended ebay. The price difference is highly depended on your luck. The links i posted above cost 30-40% the price of the similar speced macbook 2.4ghz that he refeered to.

 

I would get a Mac since you are a Linux user, don't care for windows & prefer to only have one OS on your laptop. Shop around for prices: Ebay, for sale sections from online forum sites & craigslist.

 

Sorry , I do not want to attack any dell computer here, so please do not attack macbook in a mac sub-forum as well. There is no point in comparing a refurb Dell to a macbook So Excuse me, I do not see the point for you doing all these here. OP did not really ask for a price comparison, and I believe the OP is more concerning about how OS X runs and other macbook related topics.

 

I have attacked the Macs. I'm simply stating the truth with many examples. I've only said its not suitable for a poor student since one can get better laptop hardware wise for cheaper price. BTW.. which dell laptop is refurbished? Could you point me to the link i posted? I wasn't aware that I posted a referbished laptop from dell. I rechecked the post which you quoted from, but all of the laptop i linked in that post are not refurbished. They're new customizable laptops from dell.

The OP said:
"I'm more cautious to make the jump because I'm still a poor college student."
He's not financially well off, I assume he wants a better bang for the buck for his future laptop.
"I know my most used programs will run just as easily as my Linux distro (VIM, LaTeX, gcc/python/etc.) Other than having more open-source packages and an open-source kernel, I can't think of any software-related differences to OSX."
I assumed he doesn't care wether he runs Ubuntu or OSX since it's all *nix based OS.
"(BTW, I know OSX and Linux can be dual booted or Virtual Machine'd, but I prefer to just have one primary OS for work/school/fun). I'd get the $1300 13.3" MB if I got a Mac and a 3rd party memory upgrade."
I suggested him to run ubuntu as his primary OS. He can virtualize MacOS or Windows on linux if he wanted to. That way, he's not limited to getting a Mac.
"A similar spec'd Core 2 Duo PC runs at about half that or a little more. So it's either shell out the money for a Mac or get a PC and install Linux alongside Windows as my primary OS. "
It says here that he can either buy a Mac or a PC. I told him that windows based laptop will be better bang for the buck. If he wants to asthetic appeal of Macs, then he can buy it at a cost of price premium.

I don't know why there's so much arguement about what I've said. They're all facts and I supported them with many concrete examples.

When people asked me to find them similar windows based laptop that's about 1/2 the price of Macs, i found about 10 laptops that fits the description. Then people argued with me about not knowing the minimum configuration for Macs..etc.

If you have anything to argue, then make sure the point is valid instead of finding excuses like "no offense,but if you don't know the spec.,how can you make comments like this".

 

please post spec for that hp.and for you comparison,t6400 vs 7350,x3100 vs 9400, add support(and lack of proper support),build quality,battery life,etc...

and with 2nd comparison...macbook uses new gen CPU,ddr3 memory,9400g which is more powerful and wont die after couple of month and again support,BQ,battery life,backlit keyboard,etc.

and how is m1330 high end?


btw,I took a look at your post history in apple forum-almost all of them are something like "pc are cheaper"...

EDIT: those ebay items you posted are for auction

 

Sorry. forgot to post the link for HP laptop. Here it is:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9167652&type=product&id=1218041150023

I think the difference between a T7350 vs T6400 is P7350 has 3Mb L2 cache and 1066 FSB and T6400 has 2Mb L2 cache and 800 FSB. The performance difference isn't that much.
P7350 http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLB53
T6400 http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SLGJ4
P7350 super pi 1M -26s T6400 super pi 1M -27s
from notebookcheck
The IGP doesn't affect performance if you're not playing games or doing GPU intensive application. If you need to play games, and need GPU acceleration for 3d programs, IGP isn't a good choice anyways. So I consider x3100 and 9400m the same. Maybe x3100 even use less power than 9400, i'm not sure.


I'm doing a hardware comparison in terms of bang for the buck.
Also, computer rarely die after a couple of month. That's probably a urban myth or simply made up.

DDR3 1066mhz with slack timing is slower than DDR2 800 with tight timing. Anyways ram doesn't make a lot of difference here, maybe 1 or 2%. Larger/more ram will make bigger difference. The 2nd parison, macbook's only advantage is newer platform, which make little difference, less than 5%. The performance differences is easily counteracted by the faster hdd, more ram and faster graphic card in the windows based laptop. The XPS system in the 2nd comparison has more power graphic card (mac has integrated nvida 9400 which is weaker than didicated 8400GS), larger hdd capacity, more ram, i think it has better led screen, a backlit keybaord, good keyboard and above average build quality. And dell xps is dell's high end series for office and home. You can ask dell or any one who's familiar with dell and they'll tell you the same thing. Battery is indeed smaller capacity compared to the Mac, but more capacity isn't always better. Depending on your need, you can choose different batteries for dell. The 9cell battery for dell will make dell's run time much longer than the Mac. The 47Whr standard battery is smaller and lighter thus increase portablility.

High end laptops from major laptop manufacturer:
Apple: MBP
Dell: Precision, XPS, latitute, alienware (yes, alienware is dell)
HP: voodo, since HP use model number, there's no specific model that's high end
Acer: ferrari
Lenovo: T series, some U-series
Sony: SZ, Z, not sure of other models.

And yes.. when people ask me.. which one is cheaper. I always say windows based laptop will be cheaper if you look at it from the hardware point of view. From the software point of view (including the OS), it's really a personal choice or limited by the programs you use. Generally, windows based laptop will offer the best bang for the buck.

I've never said OSX sucks or anything like that. The "suckyness" of an OS mostly depends on the user. Some people say MacOS sucks and some say Windows Vista sucks. Sometimes both sides are correct and sometimes both sides are wrong..etc.

Out of 26 topics i've posted in mac forum, maybe only 2 or 3 that's about the price comparison between Macs and PC. The reason why I have so many posts about the price issue is because people kept arguing. E.g. this thread.

Did that answer all of your questions with support and examples? I hope so..

Edit: What's wrong with ebay auctions? Isn't ebay primarily selling auction items? Did you buy your $1000 Mac from a ebay store?

 

they use different architecture,which gives difference in power consumption,heat and battery life.

are you joking?you are comparing spec to spec...and 9400g makes macbook one of most powerful 13" on the market(in terms of GPU)...try watching HD movie on x3100...

heard of frying nVidia cards?

I am posting this from dell m4400...

1)1330 uses 667mhz memory
2)difference is not only in performance(whichstill noticeable.f.e. ddr2 macbook scores 1500 in 3dmark,whether ddr3 scores >2k ),but also in battery.
3)sure capacity is not all,but judging from reviews,high capacity dell m1330 still gets less then macbook.aslo,AFAIK,they don't have backlit keyboards.and don't forget that more cells=more weight.

you said m1330 is high end gaming laptop-how so?

you have WNSIB forum for that...

I never said you did...

26?really?

Prices on auctions are not final.I meant "buy it now" prices.

 

I can watch 3-5Mbit/s H.264 Blueray 1080P videos on my netbook with intel GMA 950. Seriously,these days, CPU are powerful enough to decode full bitrate blueray content at around ~50% cpu ussage through software decoding without any hardware acceleration. In theory, graphic cards from 10-15 years ago that supports 1920x1080 resolution will be able to play 1080P contents. Anyways.. 1080P videos aren't a problem for x3100 IGP.

Also.. Nvidia 9400 integrated graphic is pretty weak compared to nvidia m280 dedicated graphic card. Thus this makes Macs one of the best laptop in integrated GPU wise. Many cheap amd based laptop with ati hd3200 IGP should perform about the same as the 9400m IGP in Macbook. There's nothing special there. Almost every current laptop with dedicated graphic card will beat macbook's integrated graphic card in terms of gpu performance.

The "frying nvidia gpu" only happens to a small number gpus which uses i believe hitachi brand substrate. The GPU doesnt actually fry, the connection breaks due to the expansion and shrinkage of the heat cycles. Nvidia since then has released new bios which temporarily solves this problem by increasing the fan speed of the cooling system. Nvidia gpu doesn't have this problem in newer cards. Also, a lot of laptops have intel IGP which doesn't suffer from the "frying nvidia gpu" thing. So majority (99%+) of the laptops won't within the first couple months.

I wasn't sure if dell m1330 had backlit keyboard at first. After doing some research, it turns out that it doesn't because it's a "old" laptop. Newer laptop like dell studio or some E series do have backlite keyboard.

3dmark score is heavily dependant on the GPU. Does the ddr2 and ddr3 macbook have the same gpu? If it doesn't, then the comparison isn't valid.

I think i forgot to put a comma between high end and gaming. It's a high end, gaming laptop because:
1) it's xps brand, it's high end and supposedly for gaming
2) It has the option of dedicated geforce 8400GS graphic card which is quite a bit faster than the integrated one on Macbook i believe.

And yes.. 26 topics, at least that's the number of result that came in the forum search.

On ebay, the new "buy it now price" for Windows based Computer with 2.4ghz P8600 procesor:
http://cgi.ebay.com/BN-SEALED-Dell-...goryZ177QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-IBM-Lenovo-...goryZ177QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-HP-DV4T-P86...goryZ177QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/DELL-LATITUDE-E...goryZ177QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
price ranging from $550-750.

 

Oh I can't be bothered to continue this conversation since you don't even try to listen to me...so this will be my last post on this topic...

then why is whole tech world waiting for ion platform to be finally able to watch HD on netbooks?

i
this proves once again that you don't even try to understand what I say.you are seriously comparing most power GPU with igp?even chargers of notebooks with 280m weight more then macbook!and they ll get 1 hour of battery at best!and 3200 only scores ~1400-1500.of course dedicated will be more powerful but that = more weigh,size,heat and less battery.And why can't IGP be more powerful then GPU?

and cost as much as apple...

weren't you following that huge buzz around nVidia?

1)supposed is a good word
2)mind showing numbers proofing that?

both are IGP,but one uses ddr2 system memory,another-ddr3.

it is posts,not topics.

And again,spec. is not everything-with mac,you pay for design,quality,support,Mac OS X and it + (for people who appropriate those) and whole bunch of things like multitouch touchpad.Spec to spec,apple notebooks loose,but when you consider other things,price becomes understandable.thats why I don't feel that I overplayed compared to my other 9 Win notebooks!

 

It's already possible to watch HD videos on netbook, just not really high bitrate ones like the ones on blueray disks. Regular blueray rips at 1080P resolution is perfectly watchable on current netbooks. The ion platform (uses the same IGP as macbook), has gpu accelerated h.264 decoding thus it offloads work to the GPU.

I've read what you've wrote. You said, "are you joking?you are comparing spec to spec...and 9400g makes macbook one of most powerful 13" on the market(in terms of GPU)...try watching HD movie on x3100..." 280M was probably an exageration, but there are many 13" laptops which have dedicated graphic card which is faster than the integrated one on macbook.

Benchmark between 9400M ad 8400mGS
9400M - 3D mark 06 min: 2000, avg: 2070, max: 2148 Points
8400GS- 3D mark min: 1066, avg: 1380, max: 1645 Points
After looking at benchmarks.. looks like I was wrong about the graphic card.

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/...ll-deals-laptops?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~tab=1
For $1069, you get 2 laptops, 1 dell mini, 1 E6400 with P8600 2.4ghz processor, 2gigs of ram, quadro 160m, and 250GB hdd. The high end mac with about he same configuration is $1599.

No, I wasn't following the nvidia buzz. I haven't had a single nvndia card single 10 years ago.

"And again,spec. is not everything-with mac,you pay for design,quality,support,Mac OS X and it + (for people who appropriate those) and whole bunch of things like multitouch touchpad.Spec to spec,apple notebooks loose,but when you consider other things,price becomes understandable.thats why I don't feel that I overplayed compared to my other 9 Win notebooks!"

"Anyways.. it's your decision. For you, Mac can be looked at as a brand of PC, like Sony, Dell, HP. Buy whatever you like the best at a comfortable price range."
Finally, something we agreed with for once.

I like multitouch pad idea and I use it everyday on my netbook.

 

I really don't want to get in the argument that much, but that is only one of the things you are wrong about. I know you really believe you are giving good info and trying to be helpful to someone, but you are just totally lost... Almost all the laptops you try to compare aren't even close to being valid comparisons for everyone... so what if one is half the price and has almost the same "specs" ... because it doesn't. You are only looking at specs you find important to yourself, and you are ignoring any that you personally don't find important. Not everyone is the same. If i had to choose between two laptops with the same size screen where one is a decent small size, and the other is half the price but double the volume, I'd buy the more expensive one.

Apple's problem is a lack of range of machines. If the Macbook doesn't fit your needs, you can use something cheaper with less power... you cant get it from Apple. If the macbook meets the ops needs, he/she is not going to save money getting something different... unless he/she can do with less.

I also don't get why people keep always comparing Macs at MSRP against other machines using super duper coupons and auctions, then try to say the macs are too expensive... I could get a mac on auction and compare it to a Thinkpad at MRSP and say the Thinkpad is overpriced too...

oh? which netbook is that? I haven't found a multitouch device that works quite smoothly as Apples do for me yet... I can use Apples great, but most others I've tried mess up, not knowing if I'm clicking or trying to click with one finger and drag with another and things I'm trying to zoom and stuff...

 

Both Asus EEEpc and acer aspire one or gateway or packard bell varient, all support multitouch. For me, the multitouch on netbook is as smooth as the kind on ipod touch, but with more customizability. E.g, how responsive I want the touchpad to be.

BTW... i objected to comparing prices on an auction (ebay) in my earlier posts since auction partially dependants on the buyer's luck.
Windows based laptop manufacture almost always offer "super duper coupons" while apple does not. Those coupons codes are very easy to find and they're sometimes "pre-applied" to your purchase.

 

No one asked for any recommandation of a cheaper computer here. Laptops are just like cars, there is BMW, and there is Ford. I am not saying that either of them is good or bad, and I think you already made your point to demonstrate there are a lot of cheaper laptops out there.

 

I never recommended the laptops i posted. Someone else challenged another poster to find a compariable laptop for half the price.

 

oh come on!my eee 1000h's touchpad is not even half as good as on macbook!try 3-4 finger gestures on it!

yes,but showing me auction price and saying that it is 1/2 of original is wrong.

 

Did you adjust the settings in the synaptics driver? The default setting is kind of glitchy, but after calibration and some sentivity adjustment, it's actually pretty good. Everything is responsive and all the gestures that I use work flawlessly.

The reason why it's not as good as the macbook's touchpad is because macbook's touchpad is bigger thus there's more room. If you restrict the touchpad size to 1.5", about the same size as Asus and Acer, you'll find the performance is about the same.

Multitouch on my acer aspire one only supports 2 fingers gestures. The touchpad barely fits 2 fingers. I'm not going to bother trying 3-4 finger gestures as I know it'll fail.

Yes.. I showed you auction prices that's half of the original. This is what I've said before posting the link, "Ebay is different from buying from manufacturer. You can probably get a new "2.4Ghz laptop" for half the price." I've said later in this thread that buying from ebay is depends on buyer's luck.
Also.. I was under the impression that you wanted to see me finding something on ebay that cost half as much as macbook.

 

take a look at links again-now price is 2x of yesterdays...

 

HP laptop's price stayed the same
The 2 dell laptop' price went up by about $200-$300

 

they were 300,now ~600-700.HP stayed same since it still has 4 days till auction end.

 

This thread has gone off topic long enough and is therefore closed.

Comparing eBay auction prices to retail prices from Apple themselves is highly unfair, for obvious reasons which I do not need to state. Macs are no doubt more expensive than Windows PCs, so if the creator of the thread is thinking of running Linux only and cares more about value for money, then getting a Mac would be the wrong decision.