Almost a convert

Although Ill never stop using a PC completely because I am a big time gamer and love modding my PC, I had something happen to me tonight that really makes me want to try a mac

I am a middle of the road guy and I know your going to have issues whatever you decide to use but I just had to do a clean install of xp, becuase I tried to GASP!!!! install a printer

I have never in my life been this pissed...

I just did a clean xp install about a month ago and had my PC set up exactly the way I wanted it, well about 2 weeks ago I bought a creative x-fi sound card that had a $50 mail in rebate from newegg, well I figured I had better print the form out...well like i said i did a clean install about a month ago and never had to print anything so the printer wasnt installed...I install the driver and it ask me to reboot, well I reboot and windows will not load at all...and I am not your average stupid computer guy, I have built many a PC and pretty much know windows from the inside out..

Like I said I dont think ill ever get away from PC's all together but I have a notebook purchase coming up and am really starting to consider a macbook

 

Not exactly sure what you're looking for here - opinions to sway you in either direction maybe?

If you're moving to OSX expecting to never run into any problems, I think you'll be disappointed. OSX does have it's own share of quirks, and even bugs now and then. I found the overall experience more pleasing than Windows, but it all depends on how much you personally like or dislike those quirks.

For what it's worth, I did find printer setup to be easier on OSX, but you *may* (and this is a very distant "may") run into compatibility issues if you're using a really really old printer from a non-generic brand (lack of drivers, etc.). This can easily be researched before you buy though so it shouldn't be an issue afterwards.

Retail Macs come with 2GB of printer drivers pre-installed. If anything, that's too much, and most people reinstall the OS just so they can pick and choose which drivers to install and save some HDD space.

If by any chance that Creative x-fi card is the 54mm expresscard version for notebooks, it won't be able to fit in a Macbook.

I suggest going to an Apple store and playing around with the OS a bit before taking the plunge. Then you'll know if you really want the OS and laptop instead of just reacting to frustrations with a PC.

 

I guess I was sort of just venting a little, I had my PC set up just the way I like it and hated to have to install all the drivers and all the games again (ever have to update WOW?) anyone who uses there PC a lot knows what I mean, after a month you have all your drivers installed and cofigured, all your codec packs and crap like that, everything is configured how you like it, and all your games are installed and updated to the latest version...Its just such a hassle to have to do that crap all over again becuase of a printer

Like I said I am not a fanboy of either, I understand each has there good points and there bad points

And like I said Ill never get away from PC's all together, guess I was just pretty pissed about the whole situation

 

Ah yes, I remember those WoW updates, and having to keep up with driver and software updates was a nightmare. Sorry to hear about your printer and OS issues.

There are several widgets/apps that automatically track whether or not your applications need updating in OSX which are helpful (I upgrade at least 1 application a day!). Not sure if similar free programs exist for Windows.

My take on drivers:
Most Apple users would laugh if you told them that you had to do a triple reboot just to update your graphics drivers, with each reboot taking approximately 1 minute:
1. Uninstall old drivers; reboot to safe mode
2. Driver Sweeper in safe mode; reboot to normal mode
3. Install new drivers; reboot
4. Cross your fingers and hope it works
(for comparison, OSX boots for me in 15-20 seconds tops).

On the other hand, OSX has no driver updates for months on end - so I don't see that as a real improvement either (not that you'd really need a GPU for anything you do in OSX anyway usually...)

Same deal with the codecs. I haven't updated my codecs in OSX for months (mostly because Perian, VLC and Mplayer OSX all take months to incrementally update, if at all). On the other hand, I'd much rather deal with the hassle of having to update my codecs just so I could see regular improvements (e.g. CCCP in Windows).

Games - same issue, except what games that do exist for OSX run slower than they do in Windows. Still, you have a PC, so this isn't a major issue.

 

I have always wanted to try an apple, and with a notebook purchase coming up I figured wth, and anyways, all I need it for is watching movies and surfing the web and typing papers

Also it looks like the resale vlaue on macs are pretty damn impressive so if I decide its not for me then oh well..

 

I was wondering if I buy the $1099 macbook, and upgrade the ram, will it have very much trouble running windows?

 

Should be no problem running Windows under any of the 3 major options (boot camp, parallels, fusion). Check out Sam's sticky at the top of the page for more info and requirements/comparisons, etc.

 

There won't be any problem. Under Boot Camp, the Mac becomes just like any other PC...its as powerful as any PC with the same specs.

 

Well, if you're tired of Windows XP's problems, you'll quickly find that Mac OS X has its own set of problems.

You'll get frustrated pretty quickly when Finder locks up when you try to burn data to a disc, or simply empty the trash.

OS X certainly is not problem free. It has just as many problems as Windows does, but they're completely different.

 

It's not problem free, but for me, it has been better than XP by light years.
When I was on XP, I had to format my HD once every 6 months. I had to spend hours (average of 3-4 hours a week) debugging idiotic things, such as software not uninstalling properly or drivers messing themselves up or networks not operating correctly.
I have not yet, in the year and a bit that I've had OS X, to do any of that (excluding the one reformat of the Boot Camp partition).
Windows Vista is much better than XP in this respect, but still not as good as OS X. If you are a frustrated XP user, switching to either Vista or OS X will definitely improve your health.

 

Well, if you buy cheap hardware, you get driver issues.

I've been using XP for well over 5 years now. I've had less problems with it during those 5 years than I've had with OS X over the last 10 months, give or take a few days, I've had it.

All of the "problems" I had with XP were hardware related. My faulty HP dv5030us caused every single issue I had with XP that caused me to "get tired of Windows problems and switch to a Mac".

Where all the problems I've had with OS X, other than the SuperDrive dying and Apple botching my repair, have been software related. I never had Windows lock up when I tried to empty the recycle bin or burn a disc.

 

Agreed. Don't "switch" if you're expecting all your XP/Vista problems to go away; they'll just be replaced by Tiger/Leopard (especially Leopard) issues. Neither OS is "better" than the other; it's simply a matter of preference. Some of the simplest things you do daily in Windows will be impossible in OS X, and some things will be built into OS X that you never realized could be handy until you tried them out. Don't fall into the hype; at the end of the day, it's just another operating system. Use it if it works, ditch it if it doesn't.

 

I'm quite interested in these comments. Care to detail the issues you find?

 

The only issues I have experienced with OS X in the past year and a bit is the occasional Dock crashing (fixed by restarting Dock.app via Activity Monitor), Finder crashing (automatically fixed as OS X will restart finder, if not, just restart Finder.app via Activity Monitor), my bluetooth dying on me (fixed by going into sleep mode and waking again), my menu bar messing up on me once (fixed by restart), 2 Kernel panics (one of which happened when I was launching Windows in Parallels - ironic. I am aware that it's not caused by Windows by the way, so no need to start flaming me), my Apache server giving up on me once (fixed by changing a line in hpptd.conf), not being able to detect network printers properly (probably the issue I've had that required the most troubleshooting), not being able to access Windows Vista machines on the network at times.

Nothing major yet that requires a format or re-installation of the operating system or hours of troubleshooting.

 

Well, overall, I'm satisfied with OS X, but there are the weirdest things sometimes. For example, window switching is harder. On XP/Vista/etc, there's always a toolbar, so you can always select a window, no matter where it is, as it's never more than one click away.

In OS X, however, if you can't see the window, you've either got to use Apple+Tab to cycle to the app (or Finder) and then select the window. Or, you've got to use Apple+, to cycle through Finder windows. Or, you've got to use Exposé. People say "Windows doesn't have Exposé" (besides 3rd party apps like TopDesk), but the truth is that in OS X, you need Exposé, because it's the only way to save a lot of keyboard/mouse clicks to find windows that aren't in the foreground. Or, you've got to hunt for it [the missing window] in the dock. This isn't a problem per se, but it does bring up another: you can't maximize a window from the dock via keyboard the way you can minimize it. If there were a way to flush all open windows from the dock into visibility, that would be handy. Don't get me wrong; I like Exposé; I just wish it weren't as essential to OS X as the toolbar in Windows.

It's things like these that make me long for window switching in XP; I find myself having to use more clicks to do the same things in OS X that would have taken much less time in the other OS. I have Exposé set to open from mouse gestures in lower left and lower right, but it would be great if I could just find a window without this sort of stuff.

Other random things include the inability to call up a Finder window anywhere, anytime, via something equivalent to Win+E. There's Apple+N, etc, but those don't work unless the Finder is selected, and the Finder isn't selected unless you cycle to it (Apple+Tab), click the icon, or click the desktop. Again, extra keystrokes for something that never takes more than two clicks (Win+E) in Windows. I'll skip over the no-maximization stuff, as that's something that always causes arguments, but it is something Windows users use a lot, and it's something absent in OS X, besides the corner dragging method. A more serious lacking, for me, is the inability to select focus follows mouse. In XP, this is achievable via TweakXP (a Microsoft add-on), and it's a wonderful feature for power users. You can also get it in various flavors of Linux, etc. However, it's entirely absent from OS X, and has been for years. This was one of my favorite parts of using Windows, but after searching high and low via google and forums, I've come to see it's just not available in OS X. Too bad, I guess. If I go back to Windows someday, that will be one of the primary reasons why.

So yeah. I mostly focused on things I'd expect to be able to do, but couldn't, but there are lots of pleasant things about the OS as well, that were either impossible in XP or required 3rd party applications. Spotlight is built in, whereas I needed a program for it in XP. Writing simple scripts via Automator is something I'd never have thought of in XP (like creating a program that watches for torrent files on the desktop when downloaded there from Firefox, and requests confirmation before deleting them; wrote that yesterday). I love how clean the OS looks; one of my primary reasons for trying out the OS was how little wasted space there was in window borders. XP borders are so many pixels thick, and Vista takes screen-wasting to a whole new level--but in OS X, you've got these razor thin window borders, and the little shadow effects, etc, that combine to make it a very attractive OS to use and look at. Other things, like not bothering with an AV program, etc are neat. Then there are downsides, like the lack of 3rd party apps, but that isn't necessarily the OS's fault. Overall, a capable user on one OS can easily become one on another, but there will be upsides and downsides to each switch. I realize that there are dozens of features, applications, and "things" I'm simply not going to get in OS X that I took for granted in XP, while when/if I switch back, there'll be plenty of things I never knew I missed until I try to do them. My main idea would be to keep your expectations low (regardless of OS). There isn't a holy grail; they're all simply different ways of doing the same things.

 

So, you've never had to reinstall OS X because you connected a new printer, right? I think that alone is enough reason to switch from XP to Vista or OS X. All the issues you have listed are user preference based, not technical software flaws. Although I totally agree with you one some of those, when compared to having to format your HD every month (which KPot2004 had to do), I'd think that most would find them very insignificant indeed.

 

If you're referring to me, no, I've never needed to reinstall OS X due to connecting a new printer. I've never had to do that on XP either. I'm sure plenty of people have managed to install printers on either OS without restarting, and plenty of people have been forced to restart as a result of installing printers. In either case, I wasn't addressing printer installations in my post.

I'd be the first to say the issues I've listed are preference based; as a matter of fact, I've said it several times already in this thread...

I never called these technical software flaws; they're simply things I'd prefer done differently in the OS.

If you have to reinstall your OS each month on XP/Vista/any OS, that's almost certainly a sign of a hardware issue, or poor management of each installation. A normal XP install doesn't need to be formatted monthly any more than a normal Tiger installation does. It might be a bit simplistic to imply "when he used Windows, he had to format every month, so he should switch to OS X, so that won't happen, full stop." And I'm not sure why you'd try to diminish my issues by saying "most would find them very insignificant indeed". I never said these issues would bother him; I simply responded to the post above about how each OS had its ups and downs. There's no need to imply I was speaking for every OS X user; I was speaking for myself. These issues may go completely unnoticed by one person, and may be enough to have someone else switch back to Windows. In the end (I'll say it one more time), it really comes down to preference. Neither OS is foolproof; neither, in my opinion, is better than the other on an absolute scale. It depends on which you find easier to get stuff done with. I just wish we'd keep that in mind instead of trying to one-up each other with fanboyesque debates of superiority and inferiority.

 

fwiw, some of the more expensive hardware also get driver issues. think about some of the more expensive variants of creative's sound cards and vista (and xp)...

also, i haven't had any hardware problems with my laptop that weren't the result of user error, nor have i had any significant software problems. some applications hang on close - but i think that is the result of a faulty application and not a faulty operating system...

for my uses i have found leopard exceptional.

 

Well to follow up, the reason the windows installation only lasted a month is because the computer was just built a month ago, my previous computer had the same OS (xp mc 2005) from jan 2006 until a month ago..so its not like this is a common thing that I have to do every month, my guess is that it was just a fluke software issue because the printer is installed now and working fine..

In all the years I have ran windows the only one I had any major trouble with was windows me, as far as xp goes its the first time anything like this has happend to me since like 2002

 

just as a response to ealier posts, my only problems with OS X and Windows XP in the past 2 years, have usually been something that I caused, and either knew it at the time, or learned about it later.

with the type of software I am running, it is fairly common to be able to crash the program, or OS simply due to asking the machine to do more than it can handle. but it is still an occurance that I can see coming and can prevent, and is still not really that common at all.

the last major program crash I have had in OS X was with After Effects 8 (cs3) doing some fiarly intensive compositing. (compositing multiple layers of scanned sequences of animation at a fairly high resolution), in which I lost a project file and had no backups, but it was something that I had caused and was not the fault of the OS at all.

realize that these OS's are usually very solid, and it is something you are doing or have done that is causing the problems, or the hardware is simply faulty.

 

But in an earlier post, you listed more problems with OS X than I've had in years with XP.

Honestly, how can you say switching to OS X is worth it when you list more issues with OS X than most people have ever had with Windows XP?

FYI, I'm on my 4th install of Leopard now. I also had to reinstall Tiger a few times.

Why? System instability.

The ironic thing through all of this is that, on both Macs, I installed Windows XP once and it survived without a problem through all of the OS X reinstalls.

Windows XP is actually more stable on my Mac than OS X ever has been.

I've also *never* had to reinstall an entire OS because of bad driver installs. I've used various Canon, Lexmark, and HP printers and scanners and never once had a driver install cause an OS reinstall.

Even my Leadtek TV tuner, which required 3 drivers, installed just fine.

I've also never had to reinstall Windows. I've only done so because I wanted Windows to run better. You don't even need to worry about it if you don't install, uninstall, and reinstall a ton of software on a regular basis. That applies to OS X as well. Even if you use AppDelete or AppZapper, files still get left behind from software uninstalls and it clogs up and slows down the system. Completely cleaning up a software uninstall requires the same amount of work on both OS X and Windows.

Creative is known for terrible drivers and bad sound quality. If somebody makes the mistake of buying a Creative card, then they get what they deserve.

None of the hardware I've ever purchased had driver issues. You buy cheap or buy from a company known for bad drivers, you get what you pay for.

Well, I had my optical drive go bad and then Apple botched the repair and killed my system. You can head over to macrumors and read hundreds of posts by people who had bad screens on their MacBook Pro, bent systems, etc.

I recall one story I read.. a guy started out with a white MacBook with combo drive. After so many DOA replacement systems, failed and botched repairs, he ended up with a fully loaded 17" MBP.

Apple's hardware is anything but reliable or built well.

Finder freezing while emptying the Trash or clicking Burn in a Burn Folder is the fault of the OS.

 

the title of this makes me think we need a catch-phrase.
"come to the mac-side, we have no viruses." it could use some work, but its a start"

 

Untill too many people come to the "Mac-side" and OSX gets bombarded with viruses like Windows We may need a system that limits the number of Mac owners... hmmmmm..... wonder what Apple will do for TV ads then D:

 

Yeah, that's one thing about the growth of Mac...its going to eventually get viruses. Still though, OS X is written more securely than Windows is, so its going to be better, but the hackers can break into anything...

 

Yes, and most of those issues were solved with a restart (around a minute), not a format (around 5 hours, including the time it takes to re-install all software).

So you get frequent Kernel panics? It might be that you are doing something wrong or that you have received a lemon. Post your problems on the forums and we might be able to resolve them for you.

I am not lying or exaggerating when I say that I personally in real life know of no one that has had to re-install OS X yet. However, that might be because the people I know who use Macs are people doing similar or the same course as me, so we all know how to solve most computer related problems without resulting to a format.
I could provide countless examples of Windows went wrong, but that would not resolve any issues.

 

been shopping around, is there a reason that Apple wants 3/4 of the price of a Macbook for 3 gigs of ram? is this ram dipped in gold and wearable?

 

Nope; that's just your standard price gouging. Pick it up from newegg, and save some cash.

 

Same with issues I've had with Windows that weren't the result of faulty hardware, like my first HP.

Who said anything about Kernal panics? I didn't. It's just general instability and OS X not being as stable or solid as Apple and the fans try to make you believe it is.

As I said, I've had OS X crash more times than I've ever had Windows crash, despite the fact that I've only had a Mac for a few months (two different Macs) and I've been using Windows for the better portion of the last two decades.

OS X is nice and stable if you really don't go beyond the scope of what Apple intends it for. Basically, if you stick to Safari, iChat, iPhoto, iWork, Photoshop, and the rest of the iLife apps, OS X will mostly be fine. You just have to cross your fingers when you empty the recycle bin or burn a disc outside of iTunes. However, if you try to get the same amount of functionality out of OS X that you're used to having in Windows, it quickly comes crashing to a halt.. literally.

 

After you buy a Macbook from Apple.... shop for RAM or anything really, SOMEWHERE ELSE. A lot of Apples prices are insane. I recently wanted to upgrade to 4GB of RAM, went to the Apple store... price for 2x2GB sticks is over $1000. Go to newegg... under $200.

 

Yes, always...and its not even just Apple. Even Dell overprices its RAM. Newegg, NCIX for Canadians, are good places to get RAM for cheaper prices.

 

mbv

When I press the scroll button on my mouse, it shows me every application I have open, including the Finder. Have you tried that when switching windows on your Mac?

Just wondering.