15" and 17" MacBook Airs

I saw this earlier today AppleInsider. I was surprised no one posted it, unless I missed it. It's rumored Apple is working on 15" and 17" Airs without an optical drive. They look pretty neat. I have the X220i even though I don't need a ton of mobility just cause I don't want a six pound notebook, but a four to five pound notebook with a good WSXGA+ LCD and Intel GPU, even if it's a LV CPU, might be another story. Especially, if it's priced reasonably.

AppleInsider | Apple rumored to be working on ultra-thin 15- and 17-inch notebooks

 

A dvd drive doesn't add that much weight...

But then I lived with netbooks before, so I guess the Air can be thought of as a glorified netbook.

 

If they put WUXGA (1920x1200... not 1080) in that 15"... I'll buy it (and then put Win7 on it).

 

I don't understand a 17" MBA. Don't understand it one iota. Who on earth says "I'm perfectly happy with the length and height of a 17" machine, but a one-inch-thick machine like the MacBook Pro is TOO THICK!!!" Baffling.

Plus, if they're going to have a discrete GPU in the 17" MBA, it's going to be a heat nightmare. If they don't, it's going to be a farce of a 17" machine.

 

Who said anything about a discrete GPU? Most of the population is not 16-24 year old males who want to game. All you need is a LV CPU and Intel HD3000. Personally, I'd rather pay less and have a cooler machine than a discrete GPU.

You could make the same argument about the 13" Air vs the 13" Pro.

 

I was under the understanding that something like a 525M or 540M helps out with multimedia even if you're not gaming. That's why you find them in multimedia-oriented, not gaming-oriented, machines like the XPS 15 and the Vaio F2. Are those GPUs in those machines completely and utterly useless unless you're gaming?

No, because a 13" ultra-thin-and-light makes sense. A 17" ultra-thin-and-light doesn't, in my opinion.

 

The HD3000 is certainly multimedia capable.

If you shave a pound and half or two on 17" MBP are people not going to like that? I certainly would.

 

The HD 3000 is actually overkill for anyone who just wants to focus on media playback. In fact, the Intel 4500MHD was all anyone needed if we are just talking about media since that had support for hardware acceleration. The HD 3000 takes quite a few steps up and even introduces hardware encoding but I have yet to see it be used in any actual programs. Anything higher than an HD 3000 is drastic overkill if we are just looking at multimedia capabilities.

I know I would buy a 15" MBA if it were priced right (~$1800) and came with enough internal hardware to replace my current 13" MBP. That is the main issue for me right now: my 13" MBP can run circles around a 13" MBA with an i7 processor and the performance increase is quite noticeable especially since I run MATLAB and have it setup to use multiple cores and their multiple threads. I know I wouldn't hesitate buying a 15" MBA with a quad-core ULV processor, an option of 8GB of RAM, 256GB SSD, Intel HD 3000, and a display with a resolution of around 900p and a battery life of 7 hours if it were priced at $1800.

In fact, I think that the MBA line will eventually replace MBPs all together. The MBA form factor is still too early in its life for this to take place but I give it another few years. Intel is going to increase the performance of their integrated graphics and CPUs while decreasing power consumption and thermal output. Then, if someone really needs a crapload of processing power, they go to their desktops.

 

Apple, please mape this true! seriously I'b be all over a 17 inch air.

I want portability, battery life and a big screen... the less it weights the better... please Apple! and price it less than the 17 MBP!

 

I love my fifteen inch macbook pro, I'd fear of the newer airs with sandybridge chips to either overheat badly or under-perform when compared to the standard MacBook Pro's. I think you're still going to get the most value and biggest bang for buck on the standard MacBook Pro's. No one has released a 17 inch thin and descrete system before to my knowledge though. I believe the Samsung 9 has or is in the process of creating a 15inch version though.

 

Optical drives don't add that much more weight but makes the chassis more thick. That's why you see all thin/light notebooks opt out of an optical drive.

 

I like this decision. I think the future is in over the internet downloads and upgrades. Software should be distributed over the internet or at least on USB sticks. Having and installing CDs are a huge hassle. I'm really glad I took out my optical drive of my T410 and put in a storage drive. The only reason I'd get a MBP would be to use the optical drive as as secondary storage, otherwise, I think the new MBAs would be perfect. Hopefully Apple will consider higher res and antiglare options.

 

Only if high speed internet is universal and reliable in the US.

 

My DVD movie collection is too big, and I and my kids watch movies too often, to ever own a computer without an optical drive (and no, not always at a desk where I could store an external optical drive). Maybe that's just me.

I'm not excited about a 17" machine that can't game and can't play DVD or Blu-Ray movies without external hardware. I think most people who buy 17" machines want to do at least one of those two things.

 

I'd a agree there's a pretty good chunk of the market that wants a 17" for gaming purposes, but I also think the market for people who want a large notebook with a good high resolution screen and integrated GPU is just as big if not bigger. I'd love it if HP offered the DreamColor 2 in something other than a chunky eight pound workstation.

 

If you're not going to be gaming or watching movies or doing work that would require a GPU (the three groups of people I associate with 17" laptops), what are you doing where a 17" screen is so much better than a 15"? That's not a flame or a jab; I just honestly am not familiar with that market demographic and I'm curious what their core use of the computer is.

 

Zaz never stated that they wanted a 17" notebook and didn't want to watch movies or do work. He simply stated that he thinks there is a large portion of the market that wants a large notebook with a high resolution display and integrated GPU. Those type of people would really only be interested in media playback and work. Watching movies, especially HD content, is a much more enjoyable experience on a display that is 2" larger just as watching HD content at home is better on a proper 60" TV than it is on a 50" TV. A larger high resolution display also allows for quite a bit of work to be done whether it is in Word, Excel, PowerPoint, MATLAB, etc. The extra display size and real-estate means a lot more content can be open and viewed all on the same desktop.

Given that even the 4500MHD was powerful enough to drive a high resolution display, I see no reason why the HD 3000 wouldn't be more than good enough for an ultra portable, large display, high resolution notebook that was mainly built for consuming media and working. A dedicated GPU would only be needed if the user wanted to game or working involved a lot of rendering (a workstation). In fact, I know someone who purchased a 17" notebook for their in-laws that I helped pick out. I think it was an Acer with a 17" display, 900p resolution (which is low but their in-laws are old so they want things to be bigger), second generation Core i3 processor, and HD 3000. It is about 100000 times more powerful than anything they will ever need but they wanted a large display for two reasons: they do a lot of work on the computer in Word and Excel and they like watching movies that all of their kids and grandkids e-mail them. No need to have a dedicated GPU there as the HD 3000 is already more powerful than what they will need.

 

As for the movies: you can't fit an optical drive in a MacBook Air chassis. There are some people who want a 17-incher and don't want a GPU (like the inlaws you describe), and some people who want a 17-incher and don't want an optical drive, but is there a lot of demand for a 17-incher with neither? And if it's going to be a MBA 17-incher, it's going to have neither.

 

The optical disc is on its slow journey on the way out the door, just like the floppy drive. Everything is moving to the cloud, like iTunes, or flash drives.

 

The cloud is a lie.

 

No, that would be the cake. It is way too early to judge the failure or success of iCloud since the full service has yet to be launched. Apple has been known to make moves sooner than the competition. After all, they pretty much started the whole legal online distribution system for music and that didn't catch on until many years later. Apple moved to the slate tablet design pretty early in the game while everyone else was coming out with notebook convertible tablets and netvertibles. Also, back in 1998, Apple dropped the floppy drive on the iMac. That was a system aimed primarily at student, office, and home office users. They took a productivity system and threw away the floppy drive. At the time, CD burners still weren't quite as widespread so floppy was still being used to move data.

Apple was criticized back then for the move and now they are being judged for dropping the optical drive in the Mac mini (along with the first generation MacBook Air). It looks like Apple is kissing the optical drive goodbye. It might be a little early but, if there is any company out there that could successfully pull it off, it would be Apple. People are going to resist the change at first since many people still want to hold their media (though I don't know how you can hold an actual movie once it is in the player or an audio CD once it is ripped and loaded onto an iDevice) but they will eventually have to either adapt or go with someone else who still supports their "legacy" technology.

 

I know the meme is "the cake is a lie," and I have a copy of Portal to prove it "The cloud is a lie" was just a play off that false promise of future benefit.

As I see it, the cloud is not going to be all it's promised to be, regardless of how well Apple institutes the iCloud itself (and other companies such as Amazon.com institute cloud-based services), because they're still relying on crappy ol' Qwest or whatever as an intermediary. My "high-speed" internet connection is neither particularly high-speed nor particularly reliable, and I'm not the only one in such a situation.

It's not that I don't trust the cloud itself, it's that I don't trust my means of connecting to it. And that makes it useless for me as a replacement for locally-stored data and programs. (As a backup for locally-stored data, though, it's awesome. I've been pondering putting all my digital photos and videos of my kids on some sort of cloud-like thing so we don't lose that media if our house burns down).

 

Well, I have a cd/dvd drive in my laptop for the past 3 years I maybe used it 10x. So for a average consumer the dvd drive makes almost no cents and even at this point a external and a thinner laptop would be awesome.

 

I use my DVD drive almost daily. You're a sample size of one; so am I. How do we determine which of the two of us is a better representation of "the average user"?

Curiously, for a technology that some people are saying is totally obsolete, there are very, very few laptops that come without an optical drive. You can replace it with another HDD in some larger machines, and you need an external optical drive netbooks and a few 13-inchers, but probably 100% of 13-17" machines have internal optical drives (at least as options). If the technology is so obsolete, why is everyone still selling optical-drive-equipped machines?

 

When Apple came out with the original iMac people told them they were crazy to drop the floppy drive. Have you used a floppy drive in the last 10 years?

I'm pretty certain Apple, Lenovo, Dell, HP, etc., study this issue and have a sample size larger than two.

If Apple comes out with larger Airs, it doesn't mean they'll drop the other models. More choice is a good thing.

 

I'm sure they too, and nobody so far is dropping optical drives except in the few cases where the computer is too small to fit one.

I'd heard at least some rumors that the MBP line could be in grave danger of being axed in favor of complete focus on the MBA line.

But assuming that's a false rumor, maybe this would free up Apple to turn the 17" inch MBP (and maybe the 15") into true "Pro" machines, mobile workstations and/or high-end multimedia rigs with heavier-duty cooling systems, more storage, and more GPU options?

 

Totally see where your coming from, but in reality most users might not need a dvd drive 100% of the time so having a external one at your desk for work might be better than the extra size for caring on a bus or in multi airports.

This is why the current apple system of having the pro's with cd drives and higher spec processors as well as the air systems having weaker processors and no dvd drive makes cents. ( everything but the 17 in air ? apple )

 

well I maybe used my DVD drive in my MBP 3 times... and have little intention to do so in the future...

I actually like the idea of making a true 'pro' mac, and introing a lighter 15 and 17 air. personally assuming cost is reasonable I likely jump on a 17inch... I don't do a lot of processor intense stuff but more windows that I can display at once the better. 1920x1200 screen + MBA thickness would rock for someone like me, and I know I'm not the only one.

 

Wasn't the same said when bluray came out and look at where dvds are today...

Btw, floppy disks and zip disk (anyone remember those? ) went out because a superior format in the form of a cd / dvd came about that could store much more information. But, disks still held their own until a smaller flash drive came about which made any size issue advantages for a disk to be redundant.

Now, for those of "us" (a large chunk in the US) who don't have a high speed connection, how will they watch movies on slow buffering connections? And by us, I meant the general population which doesn't necessarily apply to me but I hope you got the point. Now, we might get to a day where you could store movies on a flash drive or SD card, but the technology is not that reliable yet for that purpose.

 

Its funny that you brought up Blu-ray as this whole cloud storage thing reminds me of that now. Currently cloud storage is a novelty that only early adopters and a niche group will use. Much like Blu-ray was when it first launched, the general public isn't going to get on the cloud right away. Blu-ray and HD-DVD weren't heavily adopted outside of home theater fans when they first launched. Movies were $30-$45, decent players were above $1000 (except for the PS3 and Xbox 360 with its add-on drive), and not very many people actually had HDTVs in 2005 and 2006.

Times drastically changed though. People picked up more HDTVs, stores started throwing in Blu-ray players for free, nice Blu-ray players can now be had for less than $150, and many movies are now at $25 and below (I have actually come across many Blu-ray titles that were lower than their DVD counterparts). Blu-ray still isn't THE DVD replacement but it has held its own quite well particularly for a new format that was released a little before the U.S. went on hard economic times.

These cloud services are likely going to follow the same path. They will be adopted early by the people who want to plop down the extra money for them while also having internet connection speeds to warrant such a service. I know I am going to at least try iTunes on the Cloud for the first year since it is only $25, I have a solid 40Mbps internet connection at home, and I normally get around 1.5-2Mbps through my phone which is fast enough for music streaming. The general public won't jump on this bandwagon until they have devices/software that work with a cloud service along with the availability of inexpensive high speed internet.

Apple is just pushing the move to cloud storage rather early just as Sony pushed for Blu-ray early in 2006. It should be noted though that, at the time Apple started phasing out floppy drives, they were still the most commonly used forms of storing documents and work files. That was still in 1998 when CD burners didn't become widespread until a few years later. This isn't the first time that Apple started phasing out specific formats early and it won't be the last.

It is also far too early to determine the success or failure of Apple's cloud service. So no, it cannot be called "a lie" simply because we have only seen the very beginning of a much larger service. Additionally, the ISPs cannot be held accountable for the usefulness of cloud services. Cloud service providers can offer a great service but it will be hindered by an ISP. That is fine but you can't blame the Cloud service providers for that. Going back to Blu-ray, it would be like buying a Samsung Blu-ray player, a handful of movies, hooking up the player to an HDTV, having the player spit smoke out, and making the claim that "Blu-ray sucks." Well, it was just the player (an intermediate to the actual format/media) that crapped out on you, not the actual format/service.

 

I think the reason that the dropping the floppy-disc thing worked so well is because there wasn't such a wide array of media on them. Now, everything is on a disc. Unless all bands are going to put albums on colorful thumb drives, CDs aren't going anywhere for a while. Apple is just trying to push the iTunes store and this upcoming iCloud thing.

 

The problem with the whole bluray player "going up in smokes" and blu-ray getting blamed is that you have choice of a different bluray player (initiallty you didn't just like DVD players were around $500 in 1998), but iCloud's bigger success depends upon the reliability, price and speed of the ISP connections and I don't see any govt investment or cajoling of businesses to move into that direction in this economy, when in your face infrastructure projects aren't getting funding. I know my city's initiative for cheap high speed internet fizzled out last year because ISPs weren't willing to cough the dough for the project without subsidization from the city.

As far as Apple goes, I think it banks on its rather "loyal base" to either buy a ODD for the MBA or even get an MBP for that purpose. I have to admit that Apple has some really good marketing strategies under its sleeves as one can see how they got the public to pay for the ipads.

 

Interesting comments but as a user, why would you ever want a Blu-Ray (or regular DVD) optical drive on a laptop? IMO, Blu-Rays should be reserved for the TV and not on a laptop screen. The decision by Apple to get rid of the optical drive (and also not support Blu-Ray) is smart, because like others have said, Apple is trying to keep you in their ecosystem by using their products and services only. It really is too bad that Apple got rid of the optical drive in the new Mac Mini. I could see getting rid of them for a laptop but not a desktop/HTPC. If I were shopping a small desktop like the Mac Mini, I would definitely be pissed it doesn't have an optical drive.

Also, optical drives are loud and they drain battery life from using it. In addition, by not using an optical drive, you can potentially use that space for a secondary storage drive.

So, basically, I support the decision Apple is going but only for the Macbook Airs. I'd be annoyed if my desktop didn't have an optical drive.

 

Because not all of us have the space, money or time to set up a theater system and like to multitask on our machines?

 

This is a Macbook Air ULTRAPORTABLE. It would be silly to complain about it not having an ODD. Why are you buying this machine? The Macbook Pro is for you.

 

Look at post 17 where someone said that the optical disk is on the way out as everything is moving to cloud and itunes. I don't think that post only concerned MBAs, though IMO I would like a ODD in there.

I do own an MBP and use a sony vaio as a portable that has the ODD and still is portable with weights compared to a small netbook but with a bigger screen.

 

I am in the "Optical Drive Is Dying" camp.

I've only used my o-drive thrice in the last 2 years, 1) to install tax software (they've since moved to digital download), 2) to burn music/photos onto a CD and 3) to install an older software program.

I only watch BDs/DVDs on the TV and if I ever watch a movie on the computer, it's going to be a digital copy.

I would much rather see an external o-drive (enough room on most desks to have one) and you can choose to bring it with you or not for your notebook. My problem with Apple is their MBAs only work with their SuperDrives so you get locked into their hardware and your options are reduced. I find that silly... after all, they don't require Apple branded USB drives or memory cards.

I recently bought an XPS 15z (Dell's equivalent of an MBP) and I realized that I don't need the o-drive so it's basically taking up space where a 2nd HD could be.

While CDs/DVDs/BDs are ubiquitous, things are moving away from them. My car has a USB port so I don't need to bring CDs, just plug in my MP3 or phone. The one segment that will be last will probably be console gaming.

For computers... optical drives are already optional drives since flash memory keeps getting cheaper. Netbooks, tablets, MBAs and the upcoming ultrabooks are examples of where the o-drive is going to end up. Sure, there will be people who still need them daily, but they are going to be the smaller percentage in the future and that's what the USB cable will be for... in my opinion.

 

Yeah I would love to see the ODD die because not only do I rarely use it but it's a huge chunk of the laptop that could be spent on nice graphics, better cooling, or an SSD.

 

The thing is that, in 1998, software was still being distributed on floppy discs. In fact, there was a ton of content being released on floppy discs. It was all focused on software usage but still. Movies were being released on VHS and DVD, music on cassette and CD, and software on floppies and CDs. Apple was heavily criticized for dropping floppy support. They had more crap flung at them back in 1998 over the issue than they are receiving now for dropping optical support on the Mac Mini. Also, not everything is available on discs. Many singles are now released via online download only. Many bands are also releasing entire albums as downloads only and, if they do end up releasing them on CD, their price is extremely high. Nine Inch Nails' last album (The Slip) is a prime example as it was free in the mp3 format, I think $2 for FLAC files, and then I could only ever find it for $15+ on CD. How To Destroy Angels is another example (also involving Trent Reznor) where their first EP was free if you wanted mp3 files, $2 for high resolution FLAC files, and I don't think the CD has been released but the last I checked it was more than $10 for 6 songs.

Apple has pretty much stopped pushing the iTunes Store because they don't need to anymore. It is the number one music store in the U.S. and a few other countries. I know the world isn't represented by the U.S. but you get the idea. Its success has shown that many people in the U.S. are ready to ditch CDs when it comes to obtaining music. Hell, Apple even charges $1.29 for some songs while Amazon will shell them out for $0.69. Even then, Apple continues to sell more content through the iTunes Store.

Well, many cities have multiple ISPs so you can pick your poison. It may not be the best case right now but you never know in the future. Apple is placing their bets for optical formats to die while others aren't. This happens every single time there is a shift in formats and distribution. People firmly stood their ground when vinyl was being phased out by cassette. They made all sorts of cases but cassette still won in the end. Then CD was beginning to replace cassette and again, people made their case for tape. It is skip proof, the players are smaller, the players are less expensive, I can make my own tapes, etc. CD won. Then the iTunes Store (along with others) come along and people are making claims to defend CD but look at what is happening. Now we are moving to a centralized server to store out content whether it be music, apps, videos, or documents. Again, people are standing their ground and saying that they want to hold onto their media, they can't rely on their ISPs, etc. See a trend forming?

I agree that the government needs to get behind ISPs to start enforcing some standards. Until then, as I previously stated, Cloud adoption will likely be slow and focused on a niche audience until a larger group of people join in.

Your comment on the iPad was also laughable at best (not to attack you). When used properly, the iPad is an extensive tool for everyday use. It is not for everyone but just because you see no purpose for it doesn't mean that Apple's marketing team is trying to pull some black magic on people who buy an iPad.

 

Audiophiles aren't giving up optical drives any time soon. Has anyone compared the audio quality of a CD with an iTunes download? It's night and day. I don't buy music on iTunes anymore. Got sick of the quality. I buy audio CDs, rip the songs I like in lossless format, make playlists, and put it on my iPod. I then plug my iPod into my car's USB jack. The sound quality through my car's (good) sound system is far, far better than an iTunes download. But the optical drive on my computer is a necessary part of that process.

Also, I probably own 50 movies on DVD (mostly kids' movies for my boys; some my own that I like to re-watch...you can never watch The Boondock Saints too much). I'd say a movie gets played on the computer every other day. Am I going to have to re-purchase all these from the iTunes store? And how much hard drive space are they going to take up?

Get rid of optical drives for ultraportables, but keep them around for desktops and multimedia-oriented laptops. This isn't like the 3.5" floppy. As Engadget said yesterday:

Editorial: Apple's officially over the optical drive, for better or worse -- Engadget

 

Sandy bridge CPU's run quite cool. They are perfect for notebooks.

 

and I'd love a 17inch to be as portable as possible (relatively ultraportable) ... I think many others also would agree.

 

I would be one of those people. In the past few years other than installing the OS, I've burned a few CDs and ripped a couple movies. An external works quite well for me, but there certainly are others who use it much more. For people who want an optical drive, I can certainly see why. If they could shave some weight off, since I don't really need an optical drive, that makes it a much more interesting proposition to me. Hopefully, they'll keep both and everyone can chose the best fit for themselves.

 

There is a difference between true audiophiles and audiophools. The quality of songs purchased in the iTunes Store have held their own in proper blind ABX testing and, without such tests results, any comparisons can be torn apart due to the placebo affect (among other things). Each lossy audio format has its killer samples whether we are talking about OGG Vorbis, Nero AAC, iTunes/QuickTime AAC, Lame mp3, MS WMA, etc. That is nothing new in the world of lossy audio encoding. However, for non-killer samples, only an extreme minority of people can properly ABX iTunes Store downloads from their lossless audio sources. Most people out there (i.e. the common public) have a hard time differentiating even 128kbps CBR Lame mp3 from the source lossless materials. As it stands, 256kbps VBR_contrained (the setting used for the iTunes Store) AAC is actually overkill for the vast majority of people.

The issue is that Apple might be trying to push all of their notebooks into the ultraportable territory. The re-designed 2010 MBA was introduced as the future of MacBooks. There will always be a place for large desktop replacement notebooks that have absolutely everything in them but Apple might be changing the MacBook line in general to these ultra thin machines. I still think this is similar to the death of floppy discs. At the time, in 1998, a large portion of software was still being released on floppy discs. The media companies may not have been using floppies but software companies sure were. Microsoft, Norton, and many others were pushing out software on floppy discs at the time. I remember seeing a Y2K fix for Windows 95/98SE in late 1999 on a floppy disc. So the software world was still thriving off of floppy discs and CDs were being used only for content that took up more than what ~3-5 floppy discs could hold. Granted, floppy seemed to die off rather quickly after 1998 but optical formats, not including console games because PCs can't play those, have been slowly decreasing in sales for a while now.

Bands aren't pushing out as many CDs as they used to, DVDs aren't selling as much, and Blu-ray sales are higher than they initially were but they still aren't anywhere near what DVD was.

 

I can't tell the difference between iTunes and CD-quality on iPod headphones or MacBook Pro speakers. But absolutely, I can tell the difference with a Civic Si sound system and music that has subtlety and richness to it (Adele or old-school Tori Amos, not Guns n Roses or Rise Against, even though I love the latter ones as well). And I spend a lot of time in my car.

 

Its funny that you would mention listening in the car as that is the absolute last place where high bitrate lossy (or lossless) audio is needed. Cars are not really acoustically tuned and there is so much outside noise influence from the road, engine, wind, and other cars that it masks anything. Besides, as I said, blind ABX test results are required in order for any audio claims to be taken seriously. Otherwise the difference you heard is nothing more than the placebo affect.

 

I'd want to be able to connect to two external 30" 2560x1600 displays for when I bring my 17" mba home from after a business trip.

I'd want to have VMs and I'd want to have enough RAM to run multiple VMs.

I'd want enough storage to accomodate those multiple VMs and also multiple boot environments (so perhaps two internal drives one for OS X and the other for bootcamp).

I'd want fast ports for making daily backups of my entire system (thunderport, USB3.0, or eSATA ).

And I want all of this in an uber slim 17" MBA. It could happen

I don't need the internal optical disc player/burner.

 

no FLAC, so sad. but yes the difference is hardly noticeable

 

Sounds interesting.

 

who said you have to download crummy mp3 from itunes for music?

Look, mac makes laptops for who ever they want most of the time they aren't in the price range or in a bigger size factor. That what makes the 15 inch and 17 inch airs so interesting