Oh look. My GPUs are failing. Again.

It's been bluescreening periodically for the past couple of weeks. (About one or two times a day.)

Finally got a picture of it today to look up the error code. Yep, surprise surprise, related to the graphics cards. Could be driver related, but as it's happened on several driver revisions (clean installs each time) then I'm doubtful. Or AMD's drivers are just crap, which...is also true.

And after speaking with one of the managers in the main office for the UK, they still refuse to upgrade the GPUs to nVidia 680Ms even if they have to replace these POS AMD cards for a second time, without me paying 800 quid for the new GPUs.

Well, I'll see what happens soon enough, this manager will supposedly call me back later to arrange collection of my computer to send to the depot. Oh, and if they can't detect an issue in the depot and declare that it's fine, the manager claims that Dell won't consider further hardware replacements on the computer for this issue (as well as the flickering black line that is still happening occasionally but, like the bluescreens, is intermittent and might not show up in testing.)

The way it's going right now, it certainly doesn't look like I'll be buying from Dell again unless they either get this computer working perfectly or replace it with an 18 with 780Ms or 880Ms. What a shame that the support seems to be so crap in the EMEA region, compared to the US region.

Also, if any Dell reps see this and want to try to help, I can PM you my details. Not that I ever heard anything last time after Porras passed my details on...

*sigh* I really regret not spending the extra cash for 680Ms when I bought this. Whether or not Dell sort this issue out, I'm never buying an AMD product again.

 

Well even if they refuse to help you with intermittent bluescreens in the future, they will still have to perform repairs when the bluescreens become reproducible, which is just a matter of time once you're on the way downhill.

It's a shame they wouldn't you give you a discount to upgrade to 680Ms but 800 quid is probably fair for what would have been a £1k upgrade (from base config.) in a new order back in the days. Thanks to the refresh-fest that's been going on for the past two years, the 680Ms have not lost that much value at all.

 

This is the exact reason I just sold off my 7970m's once Dell replaced them and used that towards 780m's. I still have warranty for the other components which means if anything goes wrong I just have to get Dell to send me the parts. But, rules out the chance of ever getting a system exchange.. Err.. Like Sponge_GTO had happen
Understandably this kind of thing isn't for everyone but I'm happy did it.

 

Yeah, I'll have to wait and see. Sorry for the rant guys, I just had to vent.

800 quid is reasonable in terms of retail cost for the cards (it was ~400 quid to go from 7970Ms to 680Ms when I purchased the system, if I remember correctly) but I was hoping they would have let me pay a discounted price to 'upgrade' as part of a replacement (as they were replacing a pair of dead 7970Ms anyway).

The 680Ms are still great GPUs, but honestly, I wouldn't feel great paying out that sort of money for them at this point. If I even had that kind of money to spend right now, which I don't...

If I was in a financial position where I could take the risk if Dell refused to replace the system due to different GPUs, then I'd do that, but unfortunately I can't.

What I honestly hope happens is that they can't fix the flickering line, so they have to replace the system with an 18 which I can hopefully convince them to configure with 780Ms or 880Ms. I'm absoultely done with AMD at this point. Their awful drivers alone are enough for me not to buy from them again. I don't like some of the things nVidia do/have done, particularly when it comes to proprietary software (like PhysX) and optimisation, but they simply make better hardware and better software. The 8800GT that's now in my family's desktop has been going steady for 7 years now, and still runs like a charm.

 

.....and that was when ordering a new machine. Actually, the UK price of a pair of aftermarket 680m's from Dell with new heatsinks etc was more like just over £2,000 when I had a quote from Dell UK, so £800 isn't bad. Still, it sucks that Dell wanna keep on flogging the dead 7970m horse for you, Evil.

 

Considering that these GPUs (for now) appear to be working, it is kind of unreasonable to expect Dell to just swap them out with 680m's for nothing. However, if they completely die again, then I'm going to try to push for the upgrade (assuming, of course, that they do actually manage to fix the flickering line now and don't have to replace the system...)

 

Brother EvilCorsaiR,

I think it is terrible that you are going through this. Dell\ Alienware were amazing when I had my R2 with the 7970m's that kept failing, so it is saddening for me to see another user go through a very similar issue without a good resolution. I and we in the community can only hope they get it sorted out. I don't know how much warranty you have left on your R2, but if there is still a decent amount of time left on your warranty, one or two years, I wouldn't do anything to the laptop. I would just leave it the way it is and either sell it, or keep fighting with Dell until they come to a reasonable resolution.

 

Hmm, were you in the US region or in the EMEA region? I've heard a lot of praise for Dell support, but almost all of it has been from the US region.

I've still got two years of warranty left. I am tempted to sell this (once it's working) and build a mini-ITX desktop instead, but realistically, I still need the portability. Well, I don't need it, but when I'm away from my main residence for several months a year, I like having my system with me.

Dell aren't being particularly unreasonable (I was frustrated when I wrote the original post), they're not doing as much as I'd hoped but the manager wants the computer to be assessed at the depot seeming as how this is a very strange and unique problem (the flickering line, that is). Until the BSODs become frequent and repeatable, I can't really claim that the GPUs are definitely faulty. It might just be AMD's crappy drivers causing the problem. It's a 116 STOP error plus atikmpag.sys, display driver stops responding and is unrecoverable.

I'm just going to send it in and see what they say/do. As much as I like this machine, I still kind of hope that they can't fix it so it leads to a new 18 with 880Ms, although that and the IPS display are the only two pluses of the 18...

 

I can empathise with the above. Not wanting to open a whole can of worms about the 'who gets better support' argument etc, but I do agree that Dell US, Costa Rican support and the reps on this forum (and other US people behind the scenes) make for amazing US support. You take the same computer outside of the US, put in in EMEA territory, put a bunch of outsourced Indians behind it (that isn't a racist comment - I'd be happy if they knew what they were doing, but they don't) and what you end up with is terrible support, misunderstanding, lack of knowledge, lack of empathy and lack of resolution.

The last time I dealt with EMEA Executive Resolution over a replacement specification for my M18x R1, they thought a 3630qm was comparable to a 2960xm and that a pair of 6990m's was equivalent to a single GTX 675m.....that says it all, IMHO.....and they would NOT see or hear arguments against it, when it was blatantly clear to anyone with a modicum of PC knowledge that those comparisons were totally inept and inaccurate.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you, Brother Evil - I've been down a similar path on a few occasions, so I can totally see things from your perspective. Unfortunately, as we are EMEA customers, we don't seem to get the same service. If you were a US customer, chances are after a couple of pairs of 7970m's, you'd have just got a brand new rig..........equivalent or better. From the US replacements I've seen over the years, they tend to be a WHOLE lot better.......people going from really old GPU's to maxed out, top of the line machines.....

Go figure.........

 

No offense, but by your rep here on NBR, would expect you to know this, lol. I had such a heart attack that in one replacement they wanted to send me an AMD, I fought hard for 3 months, and brought it to BBB and corporate support, just to get ANY replacement but an AMD card...

DO NOT BUY AW's with AMD. They almost all fail within a year of basic normal usage, nevermind extreme gaming, or OCing etc...

 

In fairness, the Indians on the phone at Dell support (at least, the ones I've talked to) were actually helpful. I couldn't complain about them, they organised the repair callouts without hassle and were polite. In fact, it frequently seemed that they wanted to do more (a number of them said they'd love to give me the 680Ms) but, of course, don't have the permissions to do so. Even the manager at that support centre was unable to create any such exceptions. The only people who seem to be able to do it are the guys at the head office (which I had to write a bloody letter to) and the guy I'm in contact with isn't willing to.

I'm in the US for a fortnight in August...I wonder if I'll be able to get reasonable support then? Worth a shot if things aren't still fixed, or if I'm still stuck with 7970ms. I hope they'll let me use my warranty while I'm in America, the guys there might actually be willing to just swap out my cards while I'm there. That would be awesome.

While I'm at it, could I ask what I should do to get the best support in the US? Is there a particular team I should contact that are more likely to swap them?

If they try that bull**** with me, they'll get an earful, followed by court action if they refuse to give me equal specifications in a replacement system. At the bare minimum they'd need to give me a 4710MQ and a pair of R9 M290Xs (which of course are just bloody 7970s with more VRAM...), and I'm hoping to push for 880Ms if it comes to that seeming as they're only 110 quid more, or at least they were the last time I checked.

EDIT: In fact, I should probably push for the next thing up after the 4710MQ, given that its standard clock speed and maximum turbo are both rated 0.1GHz lower than my current CPU...

Yeah, I should have known better after one of the 3870s in my old M17 failed after two years of use.

With that said, I bought the system not long after the R2 had come out, so the high 7970 failure rates weren't known at the time. I was also restricted on budget, so the extra ~400+ quid for a pair of 680Ms wasn't something I could justify when the performance difference was 5% (before it was known that the 680Ms were far more overclockable, of course). Had I known that the software would continue to be this crap and they'd be this unreliable, I would have absolutely paid the extra.

 

We must have been dealing with different folk. I was dealing with Dell EMEA Executive Customer Resolutions Team - supposedly, the 'last stop cafe' in problem resolution....supposedly the best informed, most knowledgeable folk in Dell EMEA. They were not. LOL.

Actually, when it boiled down to it, I even had the argument thrown at me from Dell EMEA that 'depreciation' was a factor when considering replacement specifications.....the argument that my 2960xm and 6990m's that were 18 mths old were no longer worth what I paid and that all they were worth (then) was a 3630qm and a single 675m....and they said to me 'why should Dell suck up the difference' and that was their argument. My answer was that I paid for four years complete care and that replacements should be of equal spec or better....it still held no sway. So, the 'like for like' rule of thumb was not so apparent for me...far from it.

I went around for months in circles, I had Dell US senior staff involved and at the end for the day, they could do nothing as it was EMEA territory. In the end, I got a full refund, after many, many months of torture, but it taught me a valuable lesson.........and that was to never buy a £3,000+ laptop from Dell UK ever again......no matter how much I may be tempted to....hence the little Ebay machine in my signature.

 

The guy I'm dealing with isn't exactly the 'best informed' but he doesn't seem entirely unreasonable. Yet.

That argument really is a load of ****...I would have compared it to a car. If I send a Ferrari in for repairs under warranty because, say, the engine catastrophically failed due to manufacturer defects, and they wanted to replace it with a smaller engine because the car has 'depreciated', that would be ridiculous.

How did you get your refund in the end? Did Dell concede in the end, or did you have to take it to a higher authority?

And yeah, I'm seriously reconsidering giving Dell my money ever again. I'll wait and see how well/badly they resolve this first though. Like I said, perhaps I can actually get better support when I'm in America for a couple of weeks if I'm not happy with the final result here.

 

Well, my case went through a LOT of various departments/teams. Social Media such as @DellCares, Twitter, @AlienwareTech, emailing Mr. Dell (aka Executive Customer Resolutions Team) etc etc - I think it got me some attention from the US side of things, and a few guys pulled a few strings (at least that's how I think it worked) because Dell UK/EMEA were as about as much use as a chocolate fire guard and they did not want to do anything to help AT ALL.

It's funny, well not really, but when I got approval for a refund I was glad the nightmare was over. I decided one last time to call EMEA and ask them to explain why they were offering me a replacement with 3630qm/single 675m over my 2960xm/Dual 6990m machine and (this shows the lack of co-ordination etc) they guy in Exec Resolutions told me that he was over-ruling the decision to refund, he wanted the machine sent to the depot and he even withdrew the pathetic offer of the sad replacement machine they had come up with in the first instance - you can imagine my frustration level hit the roof!!

Fortunately, I was liaising with a few US guys and they somehow managed to get things turned around so that I DID get my full refund. They don't do it often....from that perspective, I feel fortunate....not fortunate that I had to go through the mill with EMEA, but at least I could walk away.

Shortly after I had my refund through, I called again and asked for an explanation of WHY I was treated in such a fashion and WHY my replacement spec offer was so crappy in comparison.....I finally got one of the Exec team to admit that the replacement spec offered was a 'low-ball' and not consistent with how it should have been done. Of course, that did not help me one little bit as the refund amount I had was not sufficient to buy what would have been a 'like for like' machine again - basically, as I had a cracking deal originally.

Acknowledging this mistake, the Exec guy offered me an open ended additional 10% off any order........10% on top of any deal that I could haggle with a rep......it is still open for me to take up, however, I don't think I will be using it! LOL

 

Could I ask who, on the US side of things, was able to pull a few strings for you? It might be worth me asking them if they could do anything for me. Although my situation (at the moment) is not as bad as yours was...

As I said earlier, Porras said he passed my details on to the EMEA team, but I never heard anything after that. The only reason I heard from an exec was because I wrote to their head office.

It's incredible that these people manage to get into executive positions. Do they honestly think that what they're doing is good for business? Do they really imagine you'll buy from them again?

The exec handing my case wants to see what the senior engineer says at the depot first, considering my problem is very unique with no apparent cause. Honestly, I think that's fair...he doesn't want to replace the GPUs with 680Ms right now in case the problem is another part. My frustration is more over the fact that my GPUs appear to be failing yet again, but not in such a way that I can demand replacement GPUs now while this work is going on.

 

So nothing is dead, you get few random bsods and want new cards. However frustrating I dont see any tech in the world replacing pair of high end cards on the basis of a few bsods if they cant be produced in controled enviroment in front of him.

That said I've had more issues with nVidia than with ati/amd cards regardless if they were desktop or notebook chips. Yes i've burned few amd cards but it was my fault due to overclocks which were a bit extreme at the times. Overclocking stuff in the notebook is very risky and i would void warranty to any customer if i detected it. Its not only chip temperature that kills the cards its electrical components that are delivering power to it that get stressed too much and die.

In the games i play nvidia with its 5xx series coused me more headaches than amd 6xxx and 7xxx series cards. But i would lie if i say amd did not had issues. In the end cheapest option is always the one that gives you peace of mind.

Send in notebook to depot, let em test it. I hope gets resolved for you and you end up one happy camper.

Sent from my C1905 using Tapatalk

 

Y'know, it might be worth PMing Brother Porras again if you are going Stateside soon. I know when he was trying his best to assist me, he said that had I been in the US, he'd have had it sorted out there and then for me, without a shadow of a doubt.... Might be worth a shot, even if he cannot help. As for the other US guys that were assisting me, there was one guy who was fairly instrumental in helping me andI wish I could give you his details, but it's one of those instances where I am in his debt and he need not have got himself involved....it's not directly his role, and I did not reach out to him, he reached out to me after reading my story here on NBR. I don't want to compromise his position, but I will PM you the name of another guy who did help out.

The problem here is as you said:

I don't know how far Dell will go in replacing hardware in that kind of position......

 

No, nothing's dead. But I've been through two screen replacements, two motherboard replacements, a replacement ODD, both graphics cards and the Crossfire cable were replaced less than two months ago after they failed, and now it's bluescreening again, just as it was a couple of weeks before the GPUs failed a couple of months ago. Plus the flickering line that's still persistent. I think I'm justified in wanting SOMETHING to be done to end up in a working system, whether it's replacing hardware in this computer, or replacing it with a new one.

The 7970Ms are known for high failure rates and AMD's software is bloody awful compared to nVidia's, in my experience. After experiencing AMD GPU failure in my past Alienware laptop as well, that's all I need for me to never buy AMD again. Unless nVidia turns out to be just as bad or worse...

I'll wait and see how this trip to the depot ends up first.

Oddly enough, I found it really difficult to get hold of Porras. I sent him several PMs with no response. I actually had to post a new thread specifically asking in the title for help from an AW rep to get a response.

Also, thanks for the PM, it's appreciated. I'll save it as a 'last resort'.

Well...I'll find out.

Even if they get everything else working properly, the flickering line is reproducable if inconsistent. I've found a number of programs that will frequently trigger it. It also shows up on my external 120Hz display, albeit far more rarely. And seeming as it can be reproduced, they either fix it, refund or replace the system, or I'll take it to the small claims court (after exhausting all other options of course).

The line really is strange...I can't think of anything that could be causing it. I initially thought it was the GPUs, but it wasn't fixed with the replacement of both GPUs and the cable. Nor was it fixed with a mobo replacement. It doesn't happen with Crossfire disabled at all, which is what's really puzzling me and why I can't think of anything else that could be causing it. (It's not software, I tried a fresh installation of Windows to fix it.)

The manager I'm speaking with seemed to suggest that it could be noise in the signal? But, again, I can't think of anything that could introduce such noise when it only happens with Crossfire on and has persisted through GPU and mobo replacement. The line seems to be directly related to the GPU load at any one point and/or the framerate. This is most obvious in Civ V where having the camera in a certain position causes it to stay on screen, whereas a small nudge in any direction will usually stop it. It's definitely not regular screen tearing, and vsync has no effect on it.

It's absolutely baffled me. I'm still open to ideas about what the hell could be causing it.

 

Brother EvilCorsaiR,

When you do get states side try and get support from the team that works Tuesday-Saturday night. That is the team I have dealt with and they have always made sure I was properly taken care of. I can not speak highly enough of this team. Their team lead honestly should be training the entire support staff for Dell and Alienware, as he is that good. I am baffled that EMEA has the ability to screw over consumers that badly. I guess we are spoiled in the states, and I really feel for you.

 

With that many replacements they should have exchanged your system long time ago...

From your initial post i was thinking only gpus were replaced.

Btw did anyone bother to check power brick? With that many issues and components replacing that would be my next step. Its abnormal for so much stuff to die off...

Sent from my C1905 using Tapatalk

 

One thing that can't do any harm is to Tweet @DellCares and @AlienwareTech - explain your story in full with all the gory details, the amount of replacement parts etc etc. If no one lends a sympathetic ear, I'd be very surprised.

 

Would that be just Dell's standard tech support number in the States? Or does Alienware have their own support number?

Yeah, it's incredible that the support here is so much worse.

In fairness, only half of those were actual failures.

First screen replacement was due to failure, second replacement was because the first replacement had a spot of dirt under the edge-to-edge panel.

First mobo replacement was along with the screen replacement - not sure why they did it, but they wanted to. Second mobo replacement was to try and fix this flickering black line after the GPU replacement failed. (After the GPU replacement did nothing, the motherboard was the next possible cause, a fault in the second GPU socket perhaps was my thought.)

The ODD and GPU replacements were obviously because both stopped working. But even then, after this many service callouts, I honestly did expect them to offer a replacement.

Aren't tweets limited to 140 characters, or am I missing something here? Sorry, not a Twitter user here...

I'll give it a shot after I see what happens at the depot.

 

Yeah, they are limited.....nothing to stop you sending loads of Tweets though. I did.

 

Hah, suppose I could send a tweet and ask them to get in touch so I could share my full story.

 

I would, after all, that's what social media outreach is for......

Here's a great example of Twitter support via @DellCares in action - the guy had an out of warranty machine go up in smoke: Source: http://forum.notebookreview.com/alienware-18-m18x/753394-m18x-up-smoke-pictures.html

 

Good news! The exec that I'm in contact with has finally agreed to replace the GPUs with 680Ms. Pickup is scheduled for tomorrow to take it to the depot, where they'll replace the GPUs and try to fix the flickering line issue.

Looks like I'll be buying from Dell again after all.

 

I am buying an AW 17 or 18 possibly.. The thing is AW17 with an 880M and an AW18 with CFX R9 290X's have the same price (AW17 comes with 3D and 32gb ram rest is all the same)... Now after reading this thread I am so much more confused if I should get the 18 with AMD cards or just stick to the 17 with 880M... or if i do go with the AW18 should i shell out the extra $700 for the Sli 880's

A retailer was offering an M18X with 7970 cfx for lesser price but the unit was a display one, I was considering that too since it comes alot more cheaper.. Reading your experience I feel one needs to stay away from the amd powered AW18

 

If you have the extra $700, I would definitely spend it on NVIDIA.

That's great news.

 

Nice on replacement.

If screen mobo and gpus were replaced and flickering stayed, why didnt they change screen cable? when you dissasemble notebook that many times those thin cables are prone to brake.

Sent from my C1905 using Tapatalk

 

It might just be that I've had a significant run of bad luck, but I really, really would stay away from anything AMD in a laptop at this point.

Besides, the R9 290X actually uses exactly the same GPU as the 7970M. It just has more VRAM and a slightly higher turbo clock speed, if I remember correctly. the 880M has a significant performance advantage over it, which I think is alone worth spending the extra money on before considering reliability and the driver software.

Happens on external displays over HDMI and DP as well. Not just the internal display.

 

That's great news, Brother Evil! - let's hope your rig comes back all shiny and new, working flawlessly with those 680m's.....nice one.

 

Fingers crossed they get it working properly.

I probably won't be posting until I get my computer back, as it's the only computer I have access to. But once I get it back, I'll report back on how it is.

 

Good luck!

Sent from my C1905 using Tapatalk

 

Have you got it back? Also how do you contact this Executive Team? I asked for my 7970M to be replaced with a 680M and they refused. Said I had to write a letter to Dell House etc.

 

I'll shoot you a PM with a couple of email addresses that will get you through to the Executive Customer Resolution Team. Obviously, I can't guarantee that they will replace what you want replacing - they will listen to your problems, though...and help out.

 

Yeah this will be the 3rd 7970M they're replacing and my warranty runs out in 3 weeks... Hopefully they will listen and see my side of the story. Cross fingers for a reply from them tomorrow

 

I contacted Brother Porras who has also agreed to help to escalate it to the EU team..

 

Well, let's hope that after 3 7970m's, Dell see sense and stop flogging the dead AMD horse.....Brother Porras should point you in the right direction!