*OFFICIAL* Alienware m15 R3 / m17 R3 Owner's Lounge

BTW if go to, say, xmg.gg, the display connection type is specified straight up on the main page in the specs. With AW m15 R3, sounds like the lack of Optimus wasn't properly advertised, otherwise you would have noticed it before your purchase.

 

On the one hand I prefer to have laptops that don't have optimus. I have had numerous problems and bugs with it in the past that having it be directly connected to the dedicated GPU is just a better experience. But, with the MUX switch being a thing I do believe it needs to become standard on ALL laptops. So you can choose which mode you want. Plus, Asus has done this with G-sync. So you can literally have all the extras and goodies without any real drawback. But that would be good for the customer so it won't happen.

 

Regardless what the new tech will do forward I hate Optimus. Happy camper with old 120Hz screen on Aw17R1 (iGPU disabled) and now Clevo LGA systems with iGPU rails removed.

G-Sync and Advanced Optimus: Together at Last
Now, with “Advanced Optimus”, Nvidia has developed a method of dynamically switching between dGPU and iGPU output without requiring a reboot, allowing the benefits of G-Sync and Optimus simultaneously in the same system, no reboot required.

https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/...s-optimus-g-sync-support-better-power-sharing

 

IF it works.

 

More of this type tech will just screw up!!!

 

This a lighter laptop, obviously meant to be used on the go quite a bit, and as such it benefits from decent battery life (which gets completely decimated if dGPU is active). One day Nvidia will figure out how to draw say 2W while running some desktop apps, but for now Optimus is absolutely necessary in these laptops.

I heard about Advanced Optimus before, so was kinda excited about it making it to the R3 - seems like this proved too much of a challenge for the Engineering Team, or whatever is left of it, so they disabled Optimus altogether Beyond useless.

 

They are still there be you sure. Dell just swap them around (AW-XPS use same engineers)
I’m sure You’ll find my posts about this topic

 

I don't like optimus one bit. I'm glad i don't have to deal with it but it would be nice if they could make a mux switch that does not rule out high hz panels.

 

Bingo.

 

Has anyone had any good luck with doing a liquid metal repaste

 

Why not, what's the problem?

 

My space bar is a little squeaky. Is it possible to only pull the space bar out and do some silicon oil (or whatever?) so that the squeaking will disappear?

 

It's an unnecessary software solution that was solved by a mux switch. Optimus routes the gpu through the igpu and introduces lag that otherwise would not be there. Further you don't have true control of your laptop. If you want to disable the igpu and run in full dedicated mode you cannot and same goes for the igpu. You can force the laptop to just use igpu or dgpu but it doesn't always work.

Why they did it i don't know but it seems to me that nvidia just wanted something they could put their name on but in reality it would be the simple solution which works best.

 

An equivalent solution would only be possible if Windows supported seamless dynamic switching of the graphics adapter rendering a particular desktop. It probably doesn't.

While I'm sure there have been some driver issues (although I haven't experienced any), and Linux support isn't always great (beside the point for the m15) once it works on Windows it's great. I don't believe there is any material lag any modern Alienware model user would notice.

 

I have owned alienwares with optimus. I noticed lag. I noticed issues with the programs using the wrong gpus. I was speaking of first hand experience. Using a mux solution you can use the igpu and dgpu like a switch on a train track. Depending on which way you have it set it locks the other one out. A simple switch and restart and then you are on the other one. You install two separate sets of drivers and that's all. No confusion or mixup. Dgpu for graphics intensive stuff and igpu for max battery life.

I'm not making inferences on what people's opinions may be i am instead speaking on my own preferences. I do not believe optimus to be an appropriate solution. It takes control away from the end user and replaces it with a more complicated software dependent solution which in fact reduces my ability to use the thing i bought as i see fit and what's worse it's promoted as a feature and not as it really is.

 

I've had several laptops with a physical switch to choose between GPUs, mostly MSIs, but also going back to a now ancient Gateway, and in all cases switching GPUs meant rebooting the machine for the change to take effect. So perhaps Optimus is designed to, among other things, eliminate that reboot which is both time-consuming and perhaps confusing to those less technically minded.

I did not know about any lag Optimus introduced, however. Is the lag persistent and material or basically unnoticeable?

 

In order for optimus to be able to dynamically switch between igpu and dpu it routes everything through the igpu. So when it sees the need for more graphics it kicks on the dgpu but the igpu is never not on. It either functions as a motor or a transmission on the fly. This means that the gpu has a middle man which reduces top performance of said gpu and also introduces lag. Now admittedly its not a huge amount of lag but it is noticeable in games.

 

Thanks, that's fascinating to learn. Can you "guesstimate" the performance hit? Obviously it's too late to do anything about it but it'd be interesting to know.

 

You haven’t added all driver problems with Optimus. The web is flooded.

 

True. It's a bad solution and for whatever reason some people defend it. The driver issues. The instability and lack of choice. Seems obvious to choose a mux switch but rebooting is lame i guess? I have nvme storage so it's like 15 secs to reboot.

 

It's unnoticeable in the m15 for sure. I played FPS games at a reasonably high level on the built in 144Hz display and would have noticed something - buttery smooth all the way. I would like to know exactly what this lag is vs a simple switch. Is it model specific? I couldn't find any references on google beyond driver issues mostly by users of other laptop brands.

 

Here is a video about the performance loss of optimus.


Optimus lag is introduced by the unnecessary use of the dgpu during random times. Like switching between windows or opening a program. It's not every time and it's hard to nail down. It may be nitpicking but it is also an unnecessary annoyance. The big down side of a mux switch seems to be no high hz panels but that was years ago during the 17 r1 era. Things may be different now. A gsync only solution sucks for battery life tho.

 

While the solution may have some potential drawbacks,I have experienced none of the issues you describe with the Alienware 15 R2 and m15 R1, and all of them seem to be potentially negligible from the user's perspective:
* The added complexity - again I'm pretty sure this is invisible to modern Alienware + Windows users
* The necessity of having iGPU involved - how much power does it draw in this Optimus full screen passthrough mode? Less than 1W is my guess, and who cares - if dGPU is active, it's going to gobble up an order of magnitude or two more power
* Potential for some lag, although according to Nvidia is well and truly negligible: 0.2 frame
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Nvidi...ia's engineers, the,to the Intel graphic card.

The cost of rebooting also includes closing all the apps/docs etc. It's can be much higher than 15 secs, and the annoyance/disruption is often hard to quantify.

I'm sorry this explanation doesn't make any sense. Things are different now. As for the JT's video, it's typically unrigorous and just basically shows some random differences in FPS, with no clear conclusion as far as I can see after skimming briefly.

 

I'm not sure what you are arguing anymore. I am merely saying that compared to a mux solution the optimus solution is a poor replacement. I do not like it because I'd rather switch graphics myself. if rebooting is a downside then ok sure -1 for mux switch. -5 for optimus. 1.) lack of choice 2.) Driver conflicts 3.) loss of top performance in dedicated mode 4.) input lag(however small) 5.) software inability to switch graphics effectively.

I'm a modern alienware/windows user. It is not invisible to me and many others on these forums or the internet. Not that it matters mind you. I just don't like optimus and my reasons are sound.

What things are different? Optimus suddenly works perfectly now? I've owned optimus laptops since 2013. The video shows several issues which are directly rectified by removing optimus from the equation. It doesn't invalidate optimus as a solution for battery issues but it does bring into question why use a program to do something you could physically do like a light switch.

 

I'm sorry I somehow lost you... To recap, the straightforward argument has been: Optimus is a non-concern for its users. I think you are the only one who is claiming relevant recent issues, without providing any details , unfortunately. I see your arguments as entirely unfounded in the current state of the world:
1) Lack of choice: this is bizarre, given that Optimus allows one to choose whether you want to use iGPU or dGPU on per-process basis
2) No driver conflicts occur in practice
3&4) Any performance loss could be only due to lag and this is not perceptible by humans - 0.2 frame at 144Hz would result in 1.3ms or 1/720th of a second lag. Ridiculous to suggest anyone would notice that.
5) I don't even know what that means - actually Optimus provides a very efficient way of switching graphics processors - rebooting every time they wanted to switch gpus would be very inefficient and inconvenient.

I'm sure there were teething problems in the past, and Linux is Linux, however, Optimus works great at present in modern AW Windows systems which are lucky enough to come equipped with it.

Yes, it does work perfectly now. The video is fairly nonsensical and his methodology is clearly idiotic given the variance inherent in FPS measurements, again in a typical JT fashion. If the issue with Optimus is the in fact that incurs a minuscule (in fact imperceptible) input lag, then clearly Gsync is not a solution, since that causes a HUGE input lag.

 

I’m a bencher like bro @Mr. Fox Optimus sucks hard!!! Have tested. Won’t work for points on the bot.

 

I stated my opinion. My opinion is based on my observations. What evidence is appropriate evidence since you are the arbiter of what counts and does not as "details"? If you believe his reasoning to be idiotic as you say then i think that says more about you than him. He did not state definitively that there is an absolute issue with optimus. He did not make those claims. He merely made a video in which 14 out of 15 games showed an above average deficit compared to the same games bypassing optimus. This is not conclusive but it certainly is something to consider. Further optimus is not perfect. It still to this day will not always switch when needed or in the most efficient way which is sensible. It is not alive. It's a program. I'll go through my points for you.

1.) Lack of choice. It does not allow the choice of the gpu. It chooses for you. Thus lack of choice. You can tell it what to do for a specific program but it often does not work and regardless it always puts dgpu work through igpu when the dgpu is needed.

2.) Driver conflicts. They occur all the time. https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/forums/game-ready-drivers/13/267413/nvidia-optimus-issue/
(Not a scholarly work but hey the bar you presented is low as you said no driver conflicts happen) I also have issues with emulators in which i have to jump through many hurdles and use old drivers to get the right gpu to be used which is solved by *gasp* a mux switch.

3&4.) Performance loss has nothing to do with 0.2 lag you keep referring to. It has to do with the limited resources of a laptop. If a dgpu and an igpu have to share a single pipeline then there is going to a reduction in Performance in most cases.

5.) It is not efficient because it can not read your mind. If you want to do graphically demanding things then you can switch to only the dgpu in a mux system and then to only the igpu for a system in battery mode. You can not force a laptop with optimus to run with solely either system whether it is plugged in or not because it must run everything through the igpu.

Lastly, I'm just sharing my opinion. It's not gospel. I can be wrong. My reasoning isn't arbitrary though and you seem to be under the perception that it is. Surely we can be respectful of one another.

 

You got me intrigued, will see if I can bench Optimus vs direct too (not very soon sadly) - truth be told, I've done most of my amateur m15 benching on an external monitor

 

I bench for points Papusan @ HWBOT | Team PremaMod @ HWBOT

 

As I already briefly explained JT's videos (and not just his, to be fair) in general lack sufficient rigour to be treated seriously. To come back to your points:

1) I've never encountered this issue - what does happen very occasionally is that the default choice is wrong, I've see one or two times a game ending up using iGPU by default, again - easily corrected in driver settings
2) A report 2 years ago not regarding an Alienware laptop
3-4) Yes, the shared bus could in some extreme cases become problematic - frame buffer copying occurs over PCIe Express, so in case an application uses this resource extensively there could be a performance problem - I wouldn't expect this in games at moderate framerates, since PCIeExpress is primarily used during texture loads etc. rather than during actual gameplay, although this probably puts a limit on the FPS in 4K mode at around 300....
5) This solution would be too inflexible because people sometimes if not often need to use the dGPU while on battery too. However, I've been hoping to see is a BIOS-level switch between Optimus and direct (with the third option perhaps being iGPU only). This would pretty much satisfy everyone across this debate - no joy, of course. The dream team decided to remove Optimus in a light laptop and destroy battery life lol

 

I know that msi has done this and to a greater degree clevo but alienware is far behind. It would i think be a pretty reasonable solution as you do occasionally need a dgpu on battery but rebooting is a pain. Good points.

 

Yes, Optimus sucks. If you need Intel graphics for battery life, the only good way to do that is with a mux switch. Optimus is crap.

The mux switch is making a comeback on the better products. This was a very compelling feature on the M18x, M18xR2 and Alienware 18 as well. This should be the defacto standard now, but it is unfortunately not the case. Brother @B0B nailed it in this video. There is no excuse for any of them offering Optimus crap anymore. That's kind of a half-assed approach to doing things.

 

My space bar is a little squeaky. Is it possible to only pull the space bar out and do some silicon oil (or whatever?) so that the squeaking will disappear?

 

Thanks for sharing the B0b video, which you seem to have overinterpreted. He doesn't advocate throwing Optimus out as garbage, but rather suggests the best solution is a MUX switch offering BOTH Nvidia Optimus and direct in a single laptop. I totally agree with this and have been banging in about it for a while here. That said, given the choice between direct and Optimus on this kind of laptop, it is going to be Optimus all the way for anyone who plans to use the battery (otherwise why not get a DTR laptop or a desktop instead).

The video also confirms my observation that there is no performance hit due to Optimus in most cases, including benchmarks such as TimeSpy. I laughed hard once or twice, e. g. he said that people might ask what is the impact in other games and applications, however, he doesn't think it's the right question. I disagree. That's a perfectly reasonable question to ask! Why would anyone apart from clinically OCDed individuals and benchers (no offence) bother fiddling with BIOS settings each time they need to use the battery, if they can just keep Optimus on and never notice any difference?!? He mentioned "Counterstrike". I didn't look closely, which version was it? Probably 1.6 in which case the difference was probably 800 vs 1000 FPS. By the analysis earlier, Optimus load on PCIe could become noticeable at high resolutions and very high frame rates, making this an irrelevant issue. Very few will be worried about compromising their 200fps at 4K. Very few people would seriously play CS on a laptop screen (and they would NEVER use Gsync), plus remember: connection to external monitor is always direct in these laptops, so you do get the best of both worlds just by connecting an external display.

Optimus is not crap, B0b is smart enough to refrain from stating that. If you read a few posts prior, hopefully you will see there is a strong rationale for it in a portable laptop meant to be operated on battery often, which is perhaps the main reason people buy laptops!

In summary, Alienware engineering increasingly sucks - hope we can arrive at this common ground

 

I still think its crap and not having the ability to choose which of the three modes you want is just as crappy.

People that are popular on YouTube (or elsewhere in public view) have to skirt issues and hold back what they think all the time. @B0B is my friend and he is smart. Like most smart people have figured out, sometimes saying nothing is the best pathway to personal gain. Telling people what they want to hear is a part of daily business life for me. If they watched my actions and followed my money they would quickly realize that they heard exactly what they wanted to hear, and not what I really believe.

 

That's fine, we all have our preferences, perspectives, relationships with the truth, and online communication strategies. TBH I'd rather hear from B0b himself on what the delta between his real thoughts and the information he shared with his faithful subscribers on YouTube is. Regardless, I'm still not buying any laptops without Optimus for obvious reasons: 2h battery life or rebooting back and forth to toggle dGPU are not acceptable.

 

If a laptop is Optimus only, there’s nothing further to discuss. I’m not going to bag on a device unless it’s the GT76 where MUX was removed over their previous GT75.

However, I’ve also praised devices with not only a MUX, but machines that bypass Optimus altogether such as the previous two HP Omens and Aorus 15.

Having your laptop operate like a desktop is great! In fact, once hardware is extremely efficient I’d like to this just be the way. (It’ll likely never happen)

There’s nothing in this post I haven’t said across my videos and comment section.

Optimus purpose is to conveniently attempt to offer the best of both worlds. For the majority it likely succeeds. For the rest of us nuts who see things differently, it’s more of a nuisance because it’s not actually giving us maximum battery life or maximum performance while stripping the enthusiasts of typical features.

 

I can just plug in an external monitor into my Optimus AW laptop to achieve that. The benefits are fairly marginal, besides perhaps Gsync support for smoother casual gaming.

Fair enough, it does get fairly close to those maximums though, with a bit of occasional help. Problems are more likely to occur on the battery life side if the dGPU gets woken up by some process, but that's very easily manageable.

 

Nobody should tell you how you can or can’t make it work. If you’re happy I’ll never rain on your parade

Some will use an external monitor and some will use an external monitor as if it’s the way for all laptop users.

I’ve had comments that claim cooler temps and once we get 6 layers deep into a conversation we finally figure out they’re playing Rocket League with a cooling pad.

 

I love learning and listening to expert advice, however, occasionally the exchange of arguments ends and the discussion is reduced to mundane recitation of deeply held beliefs. To me that's a telltale sign that the particular thread of discussion has run its course. Thank you for effectively demonstrating how to avoid such an unpleasant dead end

 

The thing about deeply held beliefs is they are almost always based on facts and evidence. People don't just mysteriously wake up one day and decide that Optimus is crap. They have been affected by its flaws and the advantages it offers may not be compelling enough to accept the flaws. The discussions are only dismissed by the people that find the reasons unimportant or out of alignment with their own personal beliefs/needs. Everything is framed from a point of reference created by experience, whether good or bad.

So, yes... Optimus allows a person that either can't, or doesn't want to, change a simple BIOS setting experience longer battery run time than a person that has a laptop without Optimus. But, it's really sucky because the compromise has to be experienced by the individuals at opposite extremes. The gamer that wants G-stink and doesn't want to deal with glitches and random performance hits (in only some titles, not all) has to make sacrifices for features he doesn't care about, or cares less about. The person that cares more about battery run time doesn't get the best the laptop can offer because the best way to get longer battery run time is for the discrete GPU to be completely disabled.

The MUX switch fixes all that. You can choose from (1) Optimus, (2) Integrated-Only, and (3) Discrete-Only. Problem solved. We shouldn't be willing to accept Optimus as the only option, but it's all we get in most cases because too many already have accepted it. Given that a better way exists, I still say that Optimus is crap. It's the lazy way out that brings compromises to people that deserve better.

To say that Optimus is better because nobody has to do something as simple as toggling a BIOS setting and investing an extra 10 seconds of their life for a much better outcome that is tailored to their needs is like saying it is too inconvenient to walk across the room to turn a light switch on or off, and insisting that every device be connected to a Clapper. Nothing wrong with having a Clapper, other than it making the owner fat and lazy.

 

If max battery life is what you want then buy a laptop without dGPU. Should be cheaper as well. Problem solved with savings on top.

 

If that is all that matters, buying a laptop with a discrete GPU is certainly a waste of money. But, having a multi-purpose machine is definitely advantageous. Optimus allows a degree of utility, but it's not the best way to have a machine that can do great at both things without sacrificing features in the process.

Even if you don't care about battery run time and only care about performance, Optimus offers something not intended by its creators. With Optimus, you can fix a discrete GPU bricked by a failed firmware flash. That works on desktops as well as laptops. So, even guys like us that don't want to be stuck with Optimus can find something of value in having it available. The MUX switch options allows us to play that card if we need to without having to be shackled by the compromises carried by a product where Optimus is the only configuration option available.

TL;DR - Optimus has multiple disadvantages. Integrated graphics has severe performance limitations, but it is ideal for a longer battery run time. Discrete graphics cards are lousy for battery life, but ideal for a hassle-free experience for performance-minded individuals. Having a MUX switch that works fixes all the above and gives the end-user the ultimate control of the laptop ownership experience.

I have no sympathy for people that say it's too inconvenient to change a BIOS setting. Especially for those that want Optimus, because for them it is a one-and-done change they never need to mess with. If it ships from the factory with Optimus enabled, then there is no point in debating the virtues of having a MUX switch with a person that wants Optimus because they will never experience anything different. They will just press the power button and jump onto Facebook. But, they will own a superior product whether they realize it or not.

 

Hmm, there is a glaringly obvious and prominent example of this statement being patently false. Unfortunately, we can't discuss it here, I'm sure it would be fascinating

The problem with deeply entrenched beliefs is that they prevent the person from being able to look at the matter from other viewpoints. The bias is too difficult to overcome.

In the case of Optimus, whether it's crap or not depends on the use case or perspective. I will offer a recap as probably my last entry in this overly long now discussion:

1. From pure engineering perspective it's crap because the dGPU should be able to operate much more efficiently, eliminating the need for the iGPU (which would probably also lead to a decrease in slimmed down CPU prices)

2. From the perspective of benchers who for some reason don't have an external monitor it's crap, period. Even a remote chance of a slight performance hit in some cases is unacceptable.

3. People who rarely use their laptops on battery don't need Optimus

4. Casual gamers who don't have an external monitor or simply enjoy gaming on a 15 or 17 inch laptop display and are sensitive to tearing would benefit from Gsync rather than Optimus

5. Everyone else, including people who require long battery life supporting a mixture of desktop work and tasks requiring periodic use of dGPU such as myself find it an absolute blessing. Shutting the entire workspace down and rebooting potentially dozens of times a day would be a gigantic waste of time and render the device practically useless..

BTW Again, nobody is contesting the idea of Optimus/direct MUX switch here! The problem is that not only has Dell failed to deliver it in the latest m15, they also apparently removed Optimus. This is another, after soldering RAM or limiting/restricting RAM upgrades, step towards removing customers referenced in point 5 above out of the Alienware customer base. Looks like they just want a smaller Alienware focused on pure gamers who might be easier to impose an arbitrary brand premium on, and perhaps are hoping other users will move to the Precision brand.

 

Yes, it comes as no surprise when something Dell does, or a bad design decision made by Dell, is an underlying problem. Unfortunately, that seems to be status quo.

 

Optimus has been shown to be both having no impact almost at all to having some impact in terms of performance. Every laptop is different.

Optimus is also not the answer to best battery life. I have tested SG (Optmius), PEG (dGPU), and iGPU (Intel HD Graphics) many times on my laptops that support it (mostly AW M18xR1/R2, 18 R1, etc.) and have always come to the conclusion that Optimus still has a noticeable impact on battery life:

M18xR2 iGPU: 4 hour 18 min
M18xR2 SG: 2 hr. 44 min
M18xR2 PEG: 1 hour 32 min

This test was performed in 2019 with latest nVidia and Intel drivers at the time. Same conditions.

MUX switches were more popular back in the day, I even had a small 13" Sony Vaio that had a mux switch. Computers like the Area-51m, X170SM-G, and GT76 could benefit greatly from a MUX switch. I for one know many people on this forum, including myself, that would have loved to have that option. We buy LAPTOPS because they are LAPTOPs. If my laptop is a desktop replacement, it is getting that title due to it's performance capabilities of matching or exceeding a desktop of decent specs.

AW, MSI, they all removed the MUX switches.

Even laptops running Optimus should be allowed to run in iGPU mode only for best battery life. My M14xR2 is a 2012 Optimus based laptop with a unlocked BIOS. I can set it to iGPU only for better battery.



On topic here.....so these new laptops are dGPU only?

 

Gsync panel variants (not sure if there are non-Gsync options) have no MUX switch and thus no way to turn on Optimus according to @EepoSaurus here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/official-alienware-m15-r3-m17-r3-owners-lounge.833030/page-5

Edit: It's all a bit confusing: there are non-Gsync display options - could they have Optimus?

This Reddit thread suggests 144Hz Gsync models actually come with a MUX switch.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Alienware/comments/hliqb3/alienware_m15_r3_nvidia_optimus_disabled/

Naturally, the Dell product page offers no clues lol

https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/cty/pdp/spd/alienware-m15-r3-laptop#features_section

Anyway - soldered RAM, so nope Funny how the R1 is still on offer - I guess it's still selling in presence of the "amazing" R2 and R3 offerings.

 

Okay, so I've got the M17 R3 in hand. It has 300 hz refresh display, and as best I can tell, the system does not detect the Intel display adapter, so optimus does not work. Battery life is abysmal with the RTX 2080 Super. About 1.5-2 hrs depending on what you're doing. The reddit post that etern4l mentioned does mention that the 144 hz models has optimus, but the 300 hz displays are too fast for an Intel HD GPU to handle, hence no optimus. I would have preferred they just drop the refresh to 60 when battery was engaged. Oh, well.

 

300hz has no official gsync support or optimus.

 

Can you confirm you do not have an Intel GPU in device manager under display adapters?