Let's say Alienware has an option to forgo LED lights for a discount, would you buy it?

I am not sure of the cost difference for having LED lights in your laptop, and not having them.

Since I never used the LED lights on my laptop, and have them turned off since I received it on the first day, I was wondering if Alienware allows a discount price for not putting LED lights into the laptop. (And I am sure they don't)

And if Alienware does it, I am curious on how much discount would it be compared to the original price tag.

I'm not a fan of colorful lights to be honest. :/ I love it when using my laptop in pitch black, and nothing but the screen.

 

For me, backlit keys are essential. No need for the color changing gimik. Also, the ability to change brightness. Everything else is just eyecandy.

 

This is gonna be a non-starter.....Dell are removing features/upgradeability, they are not about to start offering keyboards with or without LED's when if one does not like lit keys, one can simply turn them off. The cost (or saving to be had) would be minimal anyway, it would just be more of a headache for Dell to have another different part to have to supply for customers to choose from. They have been far too busy of late with removing 'choice' ( eg. BGA chips for cpu/gpu) for them to worry over a keyboard that can be dimmed on or off with a simple key toggle.

 

Um the reason they're doing that is because that's where the market is going. I'm sorry that people on this website feel that all laptops need to be upgradeable but the vast vast majority of people couldn't give a flying **** about it. Alienware has openly said that the biggest complaint people had with the R1 was that it was too thick. If it means thinner and lighter laptops and more sales then that's the way Dell is going to go. And I know you disagree but the new R2s are thinner and lighter. I have both and it's pretty damn obvious.

I used to think that upgrading my laptops was an awesome choice to have, and then I realized well...in 3 years it'll cost me something like $800 for the GPU itself through some ebay seller (so good luck getting any proper warranty support on it) and then another $400-600 to get a new CPU. And then when you consider how much I use my laptop (it goes to and from work everyday with me), it's far more worth it to just spend a couple of hundred dollars extra to get a whole new laptop at that point.

I know that people love having the choice of doing that and it's sad that Dell got rid of that choice, but at the end of the day you guys are by far the absolute minority. Intel has realized this, Nvidia has realized this and pretty much every other computer OEM has realized this as well. BGA is a win to them (cheaper) and to the vast majority of customers (thin and lighter). As for the minority the only real ODM making non BGA laptops nowadays is Clevo and I'm willing to bet you that will change soon too. Especially since broadwell and most likely Skylake will be BGA only.

I mean there's always AMD...but lets be honest, AMDs performance is so far behind Intels that they're no longer really a factor.

 

What about payin extra for no laptop at all ?

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OMG ITS GETTING THINNER ITS A HEAT TRAP, LOOK HOW THIN THESE HEAT TRAP R2 LAPTOPS ARE, THEY HAVE BAD OVERHEATING PROBLEMS LOOK AT THEM!!1!1!


But yeah, that's pretty much how I feel towards this issue...
I'm not going to pay $800 to upgrade a GPU that has no warranty and is barely supported without hacks. Plus a new CPU etc....I use the hell out of my laptops, the bodies get worn out, the keys etc..I need a new laptop after a few years, not just new components. It's cheaper for buy a new one for me.

I wouldn't buy it without the lights. I like a backlit keyboard.

 

Well, I guess there are guys out there that have the mentality of the "throw away society" whereby once it has serviced a short term purpose, just throw it away or buy a totally new one. Nothing wrong with that, I guess. Then there are true enthusiasts who DO like opening up their machines, who DO like circumventing what the establishment force upon them, who DO like hacking new hardware to make it work with older platforms. Each to their own. No wrong or right, but if someone told me the brand new car I bought would need changing again soon, simply because I couldn't tinker with it, I'd be really cheesed off. Maybe some people have more money than others to elect to throw stuff away on an 'as and when' basis. There are many people who would spend $1,000 on upgrading parts after a few years, rather than spend $3,000+ on a totally new machine and then being left with a turd that is worthless to boot - let's face it, if YOU don't want it after 3 years or whatever, not many others are gonna want it either, right?

Lets not forget that it was the enthusiast minority that started Alienware off in the first place - for them/Dell to go against the people that started it off does not sit well with many of us.

As for 'thin and light' - meh....who you guys kidding??? - do you really think that the new line up is THIN? - you must be blind. Dell/Aw stripped the guts out of these new machines (for cost purposes, nothing as noble as making it thin and powerful) by removing MXM gpu's and socketed cpu's, removed the ODD and it is STILL a thick notebook by anyones standards.

As for upgrading parts 3 years down the line, chances are you ain't gonna have a warranty anyway, so what ya worried about????? - it's your machine, do with it what you want and don't be constrained by what mass business is trying to force down your throat.

It never ceases to amaze me that the amount of people who go along like sheep, just because that is the way that the industry is trying to go. Intel and OEM's aren't producing BGA stuff for anything as noble as helping YOU.....they are interested in helping themselves. What you have said about changing machines instead of upgrading is EXACTLY what they want to hear, simply because they can the shift more units of crap.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

 

And the enthusiast market is TINY compared to the overall consumer market. Dell exists to make money, not to please a couple of hundred thousand enthusiasts who feel like the world revolves around them. Like I've already mentioned the BIGGEST complaint with the R1 wasn't to do with performance, wasn't to do with how upgradeable it was because face it the vast majority of people who buy laptops do not upgrade them. Its absolutely absurd to think that. Notebookreview.com isn't an indicator of the actual market out there.

And $3000+ what the **** are you smoking dude? My R2 is completely maxed out and cost me $2400 including 2 year warranty + accidental coverage and a vindicator backpack. And that was just using w/e sale Dell had at that time and a 10% off coupon. If I called in I might have saved even more.

If I took my R1 and replaced the CPU to one thats similar it would have cost me $500 (**** if I go for one that's almost the same performance I'll be looking at the 4930MX and that's $1000 but that's just ridiculous imo). Then the 980M would be another $800. And then the 512GB SSD would have been $200. So just upgrading those 3 parts alone would have cost me $1500. And my R1 has been well used, the palm rest is peeling off, the keys are worn out, the touchpad is worn down, theres a few scratches here and there. I carry my laptop everywhere, it goes to work, it comes with me when I travel, I use it at home. Spending $900 more and getting a whole new laptop is much more worth for me at that point. Sure if I kept my laptop at home and never ever moved it and it was plugged into an external monitor then we'd be having a different discussion but how many people do you honestly think do that?

And seriously? You're going to compare a car that costs couple of tens of thousands to a laptop? That's a ****ing absurd comparison and you know it.

Did I say it was thin and light compared to a macbook? Oh wait no I said compared to the R1 the R2 is DEFINITELY thinner and LIGHTER. I have both laptops next to me and it's pretty dam obvious which one is thinner and lighter.

Like I already mentioned Alienware has already said that the biggest complaint people had with their R1 was it's thickness and heaviness. There isn't much Dell can do to make that laptop thinner, the only way is to get rid of sockets and well the optical drive. And that's exactly what they did.

Are you purposely being thick or what? If I spend $800 on a GPU from some random guy on ebay and it doesn't work a month later good luck getting proper warranty on it. I'm not talking about the entire laptop here, I'm talking about spending $800 on a new part that will essentially have no warranty and no support on it.

Do you also believe in the illuminati? Corporations are going to go where the money is. If Intel switched to BGA and half the world complained about it and switched over to AMD then you can bet your ass that Intel would be back to offering LGA sockets the very next month.

But guess what, the vast majority of people do not give a flying **** how upgradeable their computer is down the line. If it means cheaper, thinner and lighter laptops they're going to go for it. If you want any proof of that just look at Apple. 5 years ago Apple was nowhere on the list of top PC manufacturers. In 2014 they were the 5th largest. And Apple makes the least upgradeable and most expensive laptops around.

That's where the market is headed. This isn't some giant conspiracy ******** like you're making it out to be. It's just simple economics, and the consumer market far far far outpaces and outnumbers the enthusiast market.

 

Your missing the entire point that Alienware is (or used to be) designed to be an enthusiast product. That is how it was always intended. Enthusiast computers built by enthusiasts for enthusiasts. Taking it and making it mainstream just because everyone has jumped on the "Oh, lets have a nice thin, light, eco piece of **** laptop" is to many enthusiasts simply unacceptable. You might roll with the sheep, but there are many here that don't share your love of thin and light and un-upgradeable. The fact that you are even comparing Alienware to Apple speaks volumes about how you see things.
We could argue all day about it. As I said, there is no wrong or right, but you've gone off on one.........choice is the main factor here. If you want a turd that you cant do anything with, that's your look out. I don't see why people who don't want the same should be forced down that route. I'm not American, but I did think that Americans were all for freedom of choice, yet you seem quite happy to be led down the garden path with some vague misconception that the industry is doing you a favour with the way it is heading......
Anyway, I'm not gonna waste any more of my time debating this with you. Good luck and be happy with your $2,400 (heavily discounted) un-upradeable piece of **** machine. Oh, and I hope your happy with the prospect of dropping another $2,500 in a few years time....gotta love the thought of that.

 

The LED is probably worth less than $100 if not closer to $50

 

Except that companies exist to make money. If Alienware was making boatloads of money this decision wouldn't have happened. Face it enthusiasts do not bring in boatloads of money to any corporation, they're a very small part of a very very large market. And the majority of the market doesn't give a flying **** about upgradability, and that's where the money lies.

And I never compared Alienware to Apple. I guess your reading skills could some refinement, maybe use the money you save by upgrading your laptop on English classes. It might help you in the long run. I was simply just pointing out that at the end of the day a company that is complete POLAR opposite of Alienware went from being a very small manufacturer to one of the largest. And the reason they were able to do that was because they made things that people wanted. If people wanted (or cared) about performance and upgradability then Apple would still be a minority PC maker, but people don't.

If Dell was rolling in the money it would make sense for them to make a product that catered to a small portion of the market just to maintain a good hold in that portion. But every PC maker is going through hard times with shipments dropping, profits dropping etc. It simply doesn't make financial sense for them to continue making a product that caters to that small portion of the market anymore. It simply doesn't make sense for anyone to cater to it. And hence that's why pretty much every big laptop manufacturer has started focusing on thin and light laptops. And I'm willing to bet you that Clevo is going to go the same way in a few years. There's very little you can do to stop that unless you want to go running around and try to convince the 7 billion people in the world that upgradeable laptops are the future and how we should be fighting BGA.

Yet again go get some English classes please. I clearly stated in my first post that:

But guess what, choice isn't what makes Dell money. Doing what your customer base wants is what makes Dell money. And if people who upgrade their laptop were a majority, then Dell would be perfectly happy to cater to that majority. But they're a minority. Even if you look at Alienware sales only, I'm willing to bet you the vast majority of people who bought an AW laptop didn't give a **** about upgrading it. Yet again the people on notebookreview.com aren't representative of the market at large.

I'm not arguing with you that choice is a bad thing. But corporations exist to make money, that's just the simple truth of it and even more so when you consider that the past few years haven't been kind to any PC maker.

I like how you still keep ignoring the fact that my laptop cost $900 (and well that $900 includes the extended warranty, take that away and its more like $600) more than upgrading the components in my old laptop. Keep ignoring that fact. See if it cost me $400 to get a new GPU (like it does for a desktop) and $200-$300 to get a new CPU (like it does for a desktop) we wouldn't be having this argument.

And heavily discounted? You mean people buy gaming laptops at the price that's listed on the website? In that case that's your own damn fault.

 

TL DR - just assumed that your epic post was a rant about how right you are and how wrong I am.

Feel free to write another lengthy post, please..........they say it's better to let the pent up anger and frustration out.

 

Sigh... can we get back on topic, please? No one is going to budge their opinion on the current states of matter with Alienware.
Anyways, I think one of the older pre-Dell laptops had an option of whether you could choose to have LEDs or not. I wouldn't know the cost, but having the LEDs is a nice touch and has its uses.

 

Wasn't me who went off on one........

As for LED's and having them or not having them, as I stated earlier, the cost implications for Dell to provide TWO choices of non-LED and LED would be economically stupid - especially when one can turn the bloody things off. As for wether it would make a difference to the cost of the machine, yes...probably a bit cheaper, but it ain't gonna happen. It's kinda like asking if it would be cheaper if you could specify to not have the Alienhead on the lid. I'm sure it would be cheaper, but again, it ain't gonna be feasible.

 

Yet again please go get some English classes.

And what a shocking surprise. You got nothing better to talk about so you insult me...

Says the guy who went off on a rant about alienware and BGA on a topic on LED lights. Yup definitely not you at all.

 

+1 on never upgraded my laptop

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

Maybe it's my night cap working (some Amaro Montenegro on the rocks), but I see both sides of this argument.

Spoiler: Long Off-topic

I've had several laptops (most notably TWO AW17 R1, TWO Clevo P650SE and TWO AW17 R2).

Alienware isn't doing...whatever it is they're doing for the sole purpose of annoying enthusiasts. They're doing it for money. They've done the math, and this route is more profitable than catering to enthusiasts. It's really that simple. Or it could be much simpler - the chip manufacturers like Intel are no longer offering sockets, and they don't see the financial benefit of fighting this decision.

I enjoy tinkering with my machines, I started off with desktops. Because on desktops, the economics makes sense. Every 1-2 years, I would go on craigslist or whatever, buy the best (used) video card I could for around $200-$300, sell my old one, and BAM - for about $50-$100, I had usually had the second-best GPU currently available.

With laptops, it's different (especially in Canada). A MXM GTX 970M (brand new) costs $700-$800 after tax and shipping. They're almost impossible to find used. Same idea with CPUs, though the cost isn't as drastic. And it's VERY hard to sell your older MXM cards (in Canada, anyway) due to the lack of demand. So that $800 GPU upgrade pretty much costs you $800.

You can usually sell your old laptop for $1000 or more, add an extra $800 to what you got for it, and you've pretty much got enough money for a brand new, (almost) top of the line machine. So while it can be fun to tinker with your laptop, financially it doesn't really make much sense. Especially given the (lack of) support for older machines in terms of upgrading to newer hardware. This is probably where we could start arguing the whole chicken-and-egg perspective.

People aren't buying the new BGA laptops because they're sheep falling into the evil corporation's trap - they're buying it because the companies are selling them exactly what they want. Now, I agree that the new AW machines are far too thick considering the hardware they have (no reason to be that thick if you don't have sockets and an optical drive, have a look at the Clevo P650SE for example). So I don't quite get Dell's intent there - it's thinner, but thicker than it needs to be. And the cooling system isn't as good as previous models. The build quality has gone down. It is inferior in pretty much every way to previous models, though it compares favourably to other brand's current offerings.

While I understand the frustration of enthusiasts who no longer have the machines they would like, expecting people to pay for thicker, heavier and more expensive machines than they want/need simply to permit the enthusiast lines to continue is a bit ludicrous. Looking at car analogies, it's like expecting everybody to buy an expensive Hummer, simply to make sure companies keep making them for the few people who want them. Why would someone, who is completely content with his Honda Civic, buy a Hummer? If him not buying a Hummer means the death of the Hummer (and the despair of the small number of people who like Hummers), it probably means that market is not economically sustainable.

Continuing the car analogy, engines have become far more fuel-efficient, as well as less powerful over the years. Look at the typical engine found in cars in the 70's vs one today. Some car aficionados would say we've dumbed-down cars. I would say people wanted fuel-efficient engines, and stopped caring about horsepower or torque, since we're really just mostly driving cars to get from Point A to Point B. Why would people continue buying souped-up engines, when they really just need a small, efficient car to get them to work and back?

I would personally think there is enough demand for machines like the older Alienware models to justify at least one of them (say a 13 & 15" BGA model and a socketed 17" model). But maybe I'm wrong.

I love my AW17 R1. I'm typing this on my Clevo P650SE, and it just can't compare in terms of quality and sturdiness to the AW sitting on my wife's desk. But the truth is, in a year or two, I'm going to sell both machines and upgrade, regardless of sockets/BGA. Because by then, I'll want all-new hardware, and the cost of buying a new machine/selling the old is cheaper than buying a new GPU/CPU + selling my old ones. Calling BGA machines "turds" might be funny, but it's really just opinion. Not to mention that if enthusiasts are looking for support from more casual users, insulting their choices by qualifying their new machines as "turds" isn't really going to help their cause. If somebody never plans on upgrading their machine, or tinkering with it, what do they care if it uses BGA vs sockets? A machine is only a turd if it doesn't do what I want it to do. Your turd is my perfect laptop. Calling my perfect laptop a turd isn't going to make me want to help you fight your battle.

Off-topic TL;DR
Blaming "the sheep" for buying the new machines is silly. If the product meets their requirements, they'll buy it. You can't really fault a company for chasing the more profitable market. Likewise, you can't fault people for buying a product that suits their needs. I'm not going to buy a $3000 laptop when a $1500 one will do just as well, simply to enable others to continue to have access to a certain product line. But you can (probably) blame Dell for not offering a big, top-end model with sockets, alongside smaller, BGA machines. I'm pretty sure they could make money off both, especially if they offer full BIOS/driver support for older machines, while selling the newer upgrade parts. This "BGA vs Sockets" war is insane. Both are appealing to different people.

On-topic
Unless the price difference was substantial, I'd still buy it. It's part of what sets an AW apart. But I must have a back-lit keyboard.

 

Firstly, how on earth is what I wrote initially in reply to the OPs question (below) considered to be a 'rant'?

All I stated above is that is FACTUAL that Dell have removed features and upgradeability in comparison to the outgoing line up, and that having two keyboard variants for LED lighting or non LED lighting (which would only add to the cost of a machine, not detract from it, because in reality Dell would then have to source both and cost out for stocking both and guess where that price/cost would end up?) is absurd, especially when you can turn the AlienFX off if one does not like lighting.

I mentioned BGA as an example of what many consider to be a restrictive measure imposed on them, as clearly there is no longer ANY choice regarding upgradeability. I say CHOICE because that was what the OP was enquiring about - the CHOICE to have non-LED over LED keyboards. The fact that Dell have REDUCED choice can be directly linked to the fact that they are more , unlikely to offer more choice, but less, hence less options at configuration stage. This in turn means that Dell can cut down on costs as they do not have to be offering multitudes of configuration options, which means more profit.

As for BGA across the board of OEM's, if the likes of Clevo can continue to offer socketed gpu/cpu, then so could Dell have done, but they have made ALL their machines BGA and in the process, they have Alienated (pun intended) the core customer base that made them successful in the first instance. Alienware (used to, anyway) pride themselves on performance PC's built for the enthusiast - just how a PC that cannot be upgraded at all fits into the category of 'enthusiast' is beyond me. At the very least, Dell could have kept a flagship model that did cater for the customers that helped build them up, but they haven't.

If you cannot see how or why that has upset many folk here on NBR (where many enthusiasts gather to discuss their machines and talk about upgrades etc) then you must be either blind, ignorant or both. Yes, not everyone will want to upgrade or open their machines, but you will find that many class this as a prerequisite if they are dropping $5k+ (maxed out outgoing AW 18) on a notebook. If folk like you prefer not to have this flexibility, that is your choice....for those who loved that flexibility, it is a major turn off because now they can no longer buy an Alienware computer that they can work on or tinker with.

BGA to one side, you say that the main concern for customers who owned the outgoing 17 was that users complained about its thickness and weight:

Do you actually know the dimensions of the machines and just how little difference there is? - I'll break it down for you. The old 17 was 44mm thick vs. 34.4mm thick for the R2. A difference of less than 1cm - not even a 25% reduction in thickness. At 34.4mm, that is still a very thick notebook given that it has no ODD. As for weight, despite using carbon fibre technology and doing away with the aluminium lid casing, the weight is hardly significantly different at 4.244kg for the old 17 vs. 3.780kg for the R2 - not even half a kilo lighter than its predecessor. If you think that these differences - when compared to true 'thin gaming notebooks' such as the Blade - is an example of Dell making a real effort to produce 'thin and light', the you must be sadly mistaken. Of course, when placed next to one another, there will be a visible difference between the two, but as you maintain that the main gripe was size/weight, I fail to see how Dell has surpassed itself on resolving this concern. If Dell were really concerned with making the new machines 'thin and light', one would have expected something more along the dimensions of the Razer Blade which is around 22m thick and a tad over 3 kilos in comparison. With that said, it's kind of like a half baked attempt - it has not achieved one thing or the other. It is not thin enough to be classified as even close to being near Intel's classification of 20.32mm for Ultrabook certification. It is not significantly thinner or lighter than the so called 'competition' for this (as you say) growing demand for thin and light. Let me ask you this: If someone really wanted 'thin and light', why would they choose Alienware over something from another OEM that is far thinner and far lighter?

Now, with that said, if you factor in the things that Dell have stripped away, such as ODD, partial aluminium casing, two less ram slots, no socket for cpu, no socket for gpu etc - do the partial 'pros' outweigh the 'cons'? - that is subjective to the individual, I guess. Personally, I feel like I'd be getting a whole lot less for minimal gain if 'thin and light' was my goal.

As for insulting you, I think you'll find that you tossed a whole load of abuse my way and I never aimed anything insulting towards you:

So here's what I suggest we do. I'm happy to put your insults down to over-exuberance and I am also quite happy to accept your opinion (as it is your right to have one) that you (and many other sheep) are completely satisfied in buying a machine that is neither considerably lighter, nor considerably thinner than its predecessor, has less features and is completely un-upgradeable to boot - if that's the kind of product that makes you glow inside with warmth and contentment, so be it. In return, you can cease and desist with whining on like a little girl and stop throwing your toys out of the pram simply because someone has voiced an opinion that you do not like.

As for the original question about the keyboard, Alienware is synonymous with backlit keyboards with all the flashy lights etc - why would they even want to offer a version that is plain? I reiterate that I think we can forget about it being offered as an option by Dell for the reasons I stated above - too costly for Dell to stock two variants and why on earth would they even offer it when the lights can be turned off if so desired - they don't give a rats butt about potentially saving the customer $30-$50 on an order that runs into the thousands of dollars. If any potential customer is THAT concerned over saving such a small amount on a multi-thousand dollar machine, they are probably looking in the wrong place to begin with - especially if saving $30-50 is that much of a big deal over simply opening AlienFX and selecting 'go dark'.......

I'm sorry, but the whole thread is a bit dumb - no offence to the OP. It's a bit like asking if you can buy a car without the bulbs in the headlights - might work out cheaper, but why the hell would you want to forgoe the option of being able to turn your headlights on or off.....just stupidity.

 

Illuminated keyboard - want.
Other LED lighting - do not want.

 

Well, by default you have exactly that. You can customise ALL of the LED lighting zones by using the AlienFX editor. You do not have to have the tram lines around the base lit, nor do you have to have the lid logo lit, nor do you have to have the Alienware logo on the LCD bezel lit. Everything is fully customisable, which is why it begs the questions of why on earth even bother having a non-LED keyboard in the first place.....simply just turn on or off the zones you prefer lit or unlit. Job done.

 

Except like I've already stated several times, I completely agree that its sad they got rid of the choice.

What you need to understand is that Alienware is a company. Companies exist to make money. I'm sorry that you enthusiasts feel like Alienware exists to serve you but that's simply not true. You guys are an absolutely tiny part of the market.

This isn't the early 2000s anymore and the market has changed significantly since then. There's simply very little money to be made in the enthusiast gaming laptop area. Like I've already said if the majority of people who bought Alienware cared about upgrading their laptop then dell wouldn't have gotten rid of socketted chips. It doesn't make sense for them to screw over the majority of their customers. But the reality is the majority of their customers do not care. So in dells mind the decision is simple they get to bring in more customers and not piss off the majority of their customers and make more money.

That's how corporations work and thats how they're always going to work.

It doesn't matter what made Alienware successful. That market doesn't really exist in any majority anymore. The market for gaming laptops is small, the market for enthusiast gaming laptops is even smaller. You guys aren't a majority and you guys will never be a majority. There's a reason why the entire gaming laptop market has pretty much gone from tens of manufacturers that used to offer significant customizations, different designs to their clevo laptops to a bunch of "manufacturers" that essentially resell the same clevo device with a different badge on it. And it isn't that there's some giant conspiracy against you. Its just market economics.

They're more likely to Alienware now than they were in the past. Sure the Razer blade and w/e that MSI ultraportable may be thinner and lighter but they're simply not as powerful and they're both loud as ****.

When you compare the Alienware to other laptops in its class from Asus, Clevo, MSI its one of the thinnest and lightest that still retains performance. The blade and the MSI sacrifice performance, the Alienware doesn't (well with a better PSU...)

Sure you didn't that's why you consistently keep mentioning sheep, turds, little girls and so on.

Yup real mature.

If you had actually bothered (and learnt english) to read my post and others on here you'd have realized we don't disagree with your opinion that having the choice would not be (and was never) a bad idea. Like I've already mentioned three times now its sad that Alienware got rid of that choice for people who do care about it.

The only difference is we understand why Alienware took the mainstream route because we understand consumer demand and how corporations work. We think its sad that the choice is gone for people who do care about it (ie you) but we don't make fun of you for that choice. Whereas people like you don't seem to understand that and instead refer to everyone else as sheep and their purchases are turds and then proceed to insult everyone else even though they agree with you in principle.

Seriously dude grow up.

 

Oh, what a shock to see you have asked me to learn English again......for the fourth time. You have a real penchant with that, don't you? - or is that all you can keep on repeating, simply because we do not agree?

It's not that I do not understand market economics and how corporations will want to appeal to the masses rather than the few, nor the fact that I realise that any enthusiast product will always be in the minority of said market. I understand these facts perfectly well. More sales = more profit. Cater to the masses = more sales.

Unfortunately, the masses tend to be ignorant end users who know very little about computing or about what they are buying - either that or they are like you, they simply do not care about the products limitations and are quite happy to kick it to the curb after 24-36mths and rush out and buy another one.......which is EXACTLY what those OEM's want you to do because, yep, you guessed it....more profit. The masses tend to be the kind of folk who buy things because they are 'cool' or because 'their friend has one and thinks it's awesome, dude' which is why I have likened the masses to 'sheep' who will just follow....Yes, of course Dell and other OEM's will want to lap this kind of market up......especially if they've identified that the majority of its customers fall into this category - nothing like exploiting dumb people (and those even dumber folk that follow the original dumb folk like sheep) to make a profit.

As I said, if you're happy to lap it up, that's your look out. Not everyone 'rolls with the masses' simply because that's the way industry is heading - and it's not for anything as noble as catering to the masses, it's about exploiting them.

By tolerating BGA components, one is simply giving free licence to OEM's and Intel to extract money for new hardware from you on a much more frequent basis. Lets look at gaming hardware - specifically gpu's - and for many users, having the best option is a must at all times. It's a fact that silicone technology mores on very quickly and newer, faster gpu's are rolled out at an alarmingly fast rate - a rate that is faster than the period of time in which most people would contemplate changing their whole machine to keep up. By doing away with sockets and slots, one is only sending ones self down an inevitable road of being forced into buying a complete new machine to keep up. Intel and OEM's laughing all the way to the bank because THEY have removed the possibility of the end user doing an upgrade on their own. This whole BGA market is designed to get users to change machine more frequently and if you cannot see that, then you are blind, and rolling with the masses that find that kind of activity acceptable will be your own downfall.

I'm not one of those people who rolls with the masses and accepts mediocre products simply because that's what the masses are content with. Conforming to that kind of mentality is not going to improve performance computing, only hinder it. Accepting and going with the masses is a very dangerous thing, as history dictates. Just think about how many people thought it was 'acceptable' to roll with what Hitler was advocating, or how many people considered it 'normal' to have slaves.....if no one ever challenged what the masses deem as acceptable, there would never be any change.....

I guess it is somewhat true when they say that ignorance is bliss.

Oh, and whilst NBR is not indicative of 'the masses' out there, maybe you should look at the pretty damning results and comments made by many over on this thread: http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...ew-alienware-2015-model-line-up.769672/page-2

Check out the poll - over 60% that voted indicated that they would either be completely put off the new models or would would probably not buy because of BGA.

 

Since when do we not agree? Like I've already said I COMPLETELY agree with you that it's sad that the choice no longer exists.

That's why I've been saying you need to learn English. I'm not in disagreement with you on that factor. I fully believe and agree that the choice should have been there, my only point is that I understand why that choice is gone but that doesn't mean I don't agree with it.

And that's exactly what a corporation is. You can't fault them for doing EXACTLY what they were created to do.

Why are the masses sheeps exactly? Everyone has their own various needs. Not everyone gives a crap about upgrading their laptops. You make fun of them for their own choices but then get angry at them when they make fun of your choices?

Are they spending your money? Are you doing their job for them? No then why the hell do people like you feel the need to make fun of others for making the choices they make? Most people just want a laptop that works, they neither have the technical knowledge to make the upgrades, or care enough to do that. Like I already mentioned to you, I'm sad that the choice is gone but the reason I don't upgrade my laptops isn't because I don't know any better its simply that after 3-4 years my laptops are just completely worn out. It's the only computer I have, it's gets used a **** ton. It's just not worth it for me.

That doesn't make them dumb. That just makes you seem childish when you want to criticize other peoples choices even though you aren't the one earning them money.

How exactly is that exploiting them? How many people upgrade their computers, how many people would upgrade their computers even if you told them to?

That number is tiny and it's always been tiny. For most people a computer is something that they turn on, do work on, browse some random stuff, play a game here and there and turn it off. They couldn't care less about what's in their computer, whats parts to change, which case to buy, what thermal paste to use, what fans to get. It doesn't interest them, and it's not worth their time.

Why do you think consoles are so popular? Most people at the end of the day just want something that works and runs everything they can buy without wondering about what upgrade to do in the future. There was a time when people thought building your own computer, upgrading parts was cool...now it's just become a hassle to most people who would rather spend the time doing something else.

What does this have to do with performance computing? Last I checked BGA and LGA chips are exactly the same performance. The only difference is how they connect to the motherboard.

I was actually wondering when Hitler was going to be mentioned...Godwins law much?

And it's like you said. NBR isn't indicative of anything. 88 people out of the 2-3 billion people who have computers is an extremely extremely tiny sample size that has no relevance to the real world.

 

Well aware. The thread topic though is focussed around sacrificing leds for cost in which I reply with what I would still want if that were the case.

 

See above replies in red. The poll was a snap shot of how Alienware fans here felt about BGA - I doubt that Alienware has 2-3 billion customers world wide, so I assume you are just bundling everyone together anyone who owns a computer......

 

But that's not exploitation. Most people will not do that even if you tell them.

Granted this is anecdotal evidence but I've known plenty of people who just go why bother. These people have never upgraded anything and they both likely won't.

Um that's not because of BGA chips. There's no technology limitation that prevents Intel making an extreme edition bga chip.

My point is that the difference between the SAME chip is non existent. Its literally just how its connected to the motherboard.

The whole thing about the 8gb and 4gb nvidia 980s is a design decision not a technical one.

My point is that from a technical point of view there is no performance limitation.

As for the whole poll thing, I'm sure Alienware has a lot more than 120 customers. Even if they had only 10000 (which I doubt since the number is a lot larger), 120 is too small a sample size to draw any conclusion from.

 

Hahaha, the 4940mx is a 57w TDP chip vs. the 47w TDP of the 4980hq - would that not be a limitation with an already underpowered Alienware 17 R2??

Regardless of it being a design issue or not, the soldered version of the 980m has half the vRam that its mobile MXM counterpart. This might not be a big deal to many, but gaming on multiple external monitors or at 4k will be impaired by some titles.

The poll was a straw poll of a small community. Its results are indicative of such. It indicates that the people who were passionate enough about Alienware to vote, did so.

As for BGA, it's apparent that you do not see it as a bad thing, mainly because you have no desire or interest in being able to upgrade parts yourself. This was one feature of older Alienware laptops appealed to many. Don't get me wrong, BGA has its place, it's just not in multi-thousand dollar notebooks.

Actually, lets throw another curve ball into the mix. Lets say that the majority of people do not take extended warranty on these machines - seen it myself. The scenario of a failed GPU then becomes a hell of a lot more expensive to replace because you can no longer simply replace the part. New machine time again, because lets face it, the cost of an out of warranty board with a soldered on 980m and 4980hq ain't gonna run cheap......

Still like BGA???

 

Well I did say with the correct PSU

The 180W PSU was a completely silly decision.

But there's nothing stopping Dell / Nvidia from adding in 8gb on the soldered nvidia GPU. It was clearly a financial decision. That doesn't mean BGA suffers from less performance than LGA.

I mean nvidia could have easily put 4gb into the LGA chip too.

And I agree with you on that, the choice was nice to have for the people who cared about it. I never disagreed on that point.

And sure that is definitely one of the disadvantages of BGA but I don't know many people who have had failed GPUs (without overclocking and such) or CPUs for that matter.

Most of the time the hardware tends to be fairly solid. Hell all my laptops (they've all been dell) still work to this day, there's nothing wrong with them hardware wise apart from being old.

For me it's not too much of a concern, I get 2 years through Dell and then another year added on through American Express. If my laptop fails in year three, then all I have to do is call up AMEX and they write me a check for the purchase price...pretty much no questions asked so I am covered in that situation.

Granted I will agree with you that stuff does happen and without the extended warranty (or something similar from your credit card company) you might be ****ed at that point.

 

Y'know, regarding the PSU, it's okay for folks in the US as it is in doctrine that if you want a 240w brick, simply call and ye shall be provided with one - not the case in EMEA territory, which to me and many others would be a huge turn off in buying that combo for it to be underpowered by a 180w brick that Dell EMEA has no intention of rectifying or supplying the correct PSU for its Europena customer base.

I agree, most hardware is failure free. If you had been around these forums as long as I have, you'd have seen many threads about failed hardware and out of warranty experiences etc. BGA is only going to contribute to those experiences. Also, another thing to consider is cost to Dell under warranty - this is not going to be a cheap fix like an MXM gpu. Where (or how) are they going to recoup those costs, because I'm sure as hell they won't want to take them on the chin.

Also, Dell are quite well know for their technician visits and mobo swap outs - they seem to want to bring a new board every time - even if the call out has nothing to do with a mobo fault or failure. Imagine how expensive that is gonna run if they keep up with the same traditions....

 

You can blame your government for that

See here in the US there's no legal requirement for certifying laptops. You can get the power supply certified by Underwriters Laboratories but even then that's more for insurance requirements as opposed to legal requirements. You can legally buy an uncertified power supply just that if it shorts and burns your house down Insurance companies can use that against you.

Now in the EU you legally have to certify the laptop as a complete unit with the power supply before it can be sold. So if Dell sent in a certification for the AW 17 and a 180W PSU, the ONLY PSU they can legally sell or give with that laptop is the 180W one. They can't change it out without getting the entire laptop re-certified.

Now this is a complete load of horseshit because anyone who took an primary school physics class would know that a PSU will only supply the watts that the laptop needs. There isn't a safety risk in getting a larger PSU and connecting to the laptop...I could connect a 50,000W PSU to my laptop and it'll still work fine. It won't explode and melt my house down. The ONLY disadvantage to a bigger PSU is the size. That's it...but nope gotta certify everything!!!!!!!

 

Exactly. Unfortunately, it still does not detract from the fact that an EMEA 17 R2 with 980m/4980hq is gonna struggle. Yeah, we need to line up some politicians and start shootin' LOL

As for our disagreement between BGA, let's just put it down to an indifference on how we both see things shaking out. I don't think it should have any place in high end multi thousand dollar system that has been (up until recently) been totally user upgradeable. Sure, I agree with you that not everyone wants this flexibility, for those that did, its a huge turn off.

Lets just agree to disagree.....kind of!

 

It's such a ridiculous law...

I understand the whole making sure electric devices are safe to use, and hence certify the PSU. But why the whole laptop? It's mindbogglingly stupid.

Works for me, agree to disagree then lol

 

it's always nice to have options.

I like my pink lights...

 

I think I will make all my lights pink tonight

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

You boys kissed and made up?

 

Dunno 'bout kissed, but yeah.....think we made some peace

 

I had the same kind of spat a few months ago. Been there done that.

I feel sad to say, I'm going down that route more and more. Back in the day, my roommate and I would be up all night/weekend building a desktop, tinkering, trying out different thermal pastes, seeing which fan really was quieter...Ah, the good old days!

Now, I'll do a bit of tinkering (a repaste, maybe undervolt a bit), but I really just want the machine to work. Between work, kids and the rest of real life, I just don't have the time any more. Before, I would tinker, then have fun with the machine (I had time for both, imagine that). Now, if I tinker, I don't have time to enjoy the machine. Tinkering has gone from being fun to being an annoyance - I want to spend my precious few hours of leisure time playing games on my gaming laptop, not fiddling around to get it working properly.

And I also see more and more people who really have no clue. Before, most people who had a computer had a passing knowledge of it (or so it seemed). I feel like now people either don't know or don't care to know. The guy I bought my previous AW17 R1 from didn't know what screen resolution it had, and wasn't sure what the GPU was. Imagine that - spending a ton of cash on an AW laptop and not even knowing the components within. In fact, I've been looking around for a used Dell Latitude E6420, and each time I ask about the screen resolution or back-lit keyboard, people say they'll get back to me because they don't know.

It's not surprising seeing Dell and others go down this route - the market is shifting, they're just adjusting to the new market demand. The real tragedy here is the lack of choice - if Clevo can still justify several different models aimed at different market segments, why can't Alienware?

 

I might need to ask someone else this question, but how many laptops/designs does Clevo even sell (currently)?

 

A lot haha



And that's only like half of them...

Edit: maybe a little bit more than half...

 

Their website was too confusing for me to navigate through, but if they have that many options, then it explains why they can make whatever kind of laptop they want. They have every sect of the laptop market in check. Just not the ones who want a Chrome or Apple OS or a tablet/convertible (right?).
They can take a loss in one corner, but they'll make gains in many others.

 

That's pretty much the way I feel.

I mean one of the biggest reasons I used to recommend Dell to people was that they were easily upgradeable. Then the older I got I pretty much realized...wait when have I really ever upgraded my laptop?
It was fun as a kid to think about, but now its like my time can be better spent elsewhere.

Probably because Clevo is in a far more stable/less riskier position.

If you think about it, Alienware competes against every other gaming laptop out there from all the clevo resellers and all the OEMs. Clevo on the other hand really doesn't compete with anyone, they just sell a barebones system to one of their resellers who then rebadge and sell it. I know their make their "own" laptops too but I doubt that's where the majority of their money comes from.

To Clevo it doesn't matter that Origin PC and Sager, for example, are competing with each other. If someone buys a laptop from Origin instead of Sager then thats a win for Origin and a loss for Sager. BUT it's a double win for Clevo because both those manufacturers have bought chassis from Clevo.

 

As was mentioned just above, Clevo sells a lot of different models. But just for the sake of slimming down their offerings, I'll select a few that I think showcase what Dell could do:

1) Ultraportable gaming laptop

• Clevo W230SS/SD - 13.3", small, somewhat thin and light. Can house a mobile i7, and a GTX 860M/960M. Not as powerful or cool/quiet as bigger models, but is aimed at a particular market segment. Can be had for around $1,000 US. Can get a bit hot and loud, but that's what you get with this kind of power in a 13" laptop. BGA all the way

2) "Mainstream thin & light"

• Clevo P650Sx/P670Sx - 15" or 17", relatively thing and light, mobile i7 and up to a GTX 980M. Can be had for as little as $1,300 US. Fairly good cooling system, not too loud and keeps components and surface temps at a reasonable level. BGA man!

3) Big mama

• Clevo P750ZM/P770ZM - 15" or 17" DTR with a desktop CPU (so obviously a socket) and an MXM GPU. This isn't that much bigger or heavier than the P650/P670. The CPU gets hot, but man, we're talking about a Core i7-4790K in a laptop. Top-notch performance. If you put a 4790K and a 980M, the performance is on par with a desktop running the same CPU and a 970. Sockets! Yay!

4) Goliath

• Something like the Eurocom Panther 5 (Clevo P570) - Sockets everywhere, SLI/Crossfire setup. Fast CPUs. Lots of storage options. Big, thick, heavy. Kicks the crap out of most gaming desktops.

So you see, with Clevo, there isn't this fighting we're seeing with Alienware, because there's something for (almost) everybody. Plenty of screen options, storage options, RAM options...

Alienware has just done a complete 180 - from serving only enthusiasts with expensive, high-end machines to a mainstream BGA product with lesser build quality and virtually no options.

 

To me, that statement pretty much sums it up in a nut shell, as far as Dell and Alienware are concerned. What I do not understand is WHY they did not keep the 17 as a SLI socketed machine. The 15 could have been the middle ground and the 13 could have perhaps been made much thinner. It's kind of like Henry Ford with the "You can have any colour Model T, as long as it's black" - any company that is going to rely solely on the sale of one kind of technology is only asking for trouble. They could have kept everyone happy, but they chose to cheap out on things and make EVERYTHING soldered on and plastic.

Harking back to previous models, the full aluminium case and dual card set up was indicative of the flagship - what exactly separates the 17 from the 15? - a bigger screen and the option of a 4980hq, and that's about it. There is no significant performance increase between the two that would make a clear distinction between performance DTR and powerful mobile solution.

IMHO, Dell's DTR days have bitten the dust, and there were a lot of people who would consider Alienware to provide a true DTR solution, but I don't think you can class the current 'flagship 17' as such. Obviously, I am talking about the machine as a standalone without the GA - mainly because I don't feel one should have to spend another $1,000 or so to have true DTR performance - the performance should be within the notebook itself.

 

Funny that there's a bigger difference (in terms of specs and performance) between the 13&15 than 15&17. As you said, it's pretty much just the screen size.

 

That's because the AW15 and AW 17 R2 share the same motherboard. Or at least, very similar motherboards as the AW 15 hides 2 extra M.2 slots thanks to its chassis design.
I was going to say they share the same BIOS as well since one user had their AW17 R2 motherboard name changed to AW 15, which shouldn't happen.

 

Using BGA seems to be working pretty well for all the other laptop manufacturer's pockets. The enthusiast market is too small that it essentially makes no difference that you guys would only buy socketed. You know it's likely that if all the enthusiasts didn't buy it (which is pretty likely they didn't buy it from comments on the boards), they would make up the sales through other people in the end anyway. It's just the enthusiast market is too small and insignificant that they changed. I mean unless all the enthusiasts personally want to pay to keep the company afloat, but they're in this to make money.

 

See, the thing about BGA is that it is a step on a slippery slope to total control over YOUR money by the industry to which you are buying in to - you guys are happy with it, mainly because you are (i) not bothered about upgradeability or (ii) not capable of upgrading yourself or (iii) have enough money to simply change when your un-upgradeable machine becomes obsolete or (iv) are like the masses that have no idea of the restrictions of BGA hardware.

Now that's fine if you are happy with it. If that's the way you wanna roll, then who am I to pass comment on your choices as individuals. Far too many of you seem too keen to simply accept BGA as 'industry moving forward' and are not really questioning the reasons behind it. The move to BGA is not beneficial for the end user in the long run as it simply means that you WILL have to upgrade your entire notebook before you would have had to if sockets and slots were in play.

Maybe you are fine with that, maybe you think that simply because the enthusiast portion is so small, why even bother with them at all? - if you look at it from a different perspective, the enthusiasts are the people who are passionate most about computing - you take away their ability for that passion to thrive in favour of industry making dollars, pretty soon there will be no enthusiasts driving things forward - there will only be Intel and OEM's catering to the masses that they have fooled into thinking that BGA is a benefit for them, while all along it is simply to line their own pockets.

I'll say it again, ignorance is bliss. If people are happy with a backwards step, then more fool them. If your happy to wear it, more fool you.

At the end of the day, I cannot (nor do I want to) force my own opinions on others, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

this brought a question to my mind. what kind of performance would be considered true DTR these days? Like is there a 3Dmark or firestrike threshold to separate true DTR vs false DTR? Are we talking DTR equivalent to a single GPU i5 desktop or an SLI/crossfire GPU i7 desktop?

 

Well, a lot of people upgrade their laptops because they want to, not because they have to. Even if I'd had sockets on all my previous laptops, I'd have bought a new machine. Why? I want a new machine that isn't worn-down. I want a newer screen. Maybe I want a bigger/smaller laptop. Maybe the cost of upgrading the CPU+GPU is close to 75% of the cost of just buying a new machine. The guy I bought my Aw17 R1 from didn't know the screen resolution or what the GPU was. I doubt he'd even know what a MXM card is. Now he may not be the rule, but I'm sure he's not the exception. I'm pretty confident that while enthusiasts bought the (past) AW machines due to their sockets, quality and warranty/support, a lot of ignorant people bought them because they were "the best" (and flashy, to boot).

It may also be that a whole lot of people simply don't care. It's like cars. I just want my car to work - I have no interest or desire to tinker with it. Does that make me a fool? A sell-out? No, it just means I buy a car to get me from point A to point B, and as long as that happens, I don't care about the rest. Now, you'll probably point out that if cars were made like BGA laptops, if my engine died out, I'd have to get a whole new car. Fair point. But by that analogy, my engine would make up roughly half the cost of my entire car (the MXM 970M in Canada costs about half what my Clevo P650SE cost). So if we're at the point where a single component represents that much of the total value of the end product, BGA really isn't the big of a deal. By the time the warranty has expired, the entire product has lost so much value that the replacement engine/MXM GPU is worth more than the car/laptop.

I don't think it's a question of differing opinions. I'm pretty sure most people here are aware that in terms of performance/upgrade-ability/longevity, sockets > BGA. I'd almost go so far as to say that's a fact. But what is "best" isn't necessarily "best for you/me". If I don't want to upgrade my laptop down the road due to me planning on an entire new machine in a few years, what do I care about sockets (and the increased cost/size they bring)? At equal cost/size, I'd get sockets, no doubt. But since they really aren't a factor in my purchasing decision (due to me not really getting any benefit from them) I don't really seek them out.

In the end I'm all for choice. But I'm also for not being ridiculed simply because I don't value what you value.

 

it's embarrassing to admit, but my last laptop (BGA. how horrible) only lasted me 5 years, and I am guilty of replacing my desktop components every 4-5 years as well as I want to try out new CPU technology which usually leads to replacing the mobo for socket compatibility, then graphics card, then PSU to support said new graphics card. It's all quite a slippery slope, I must admit.