Bad experiences with Alienware 17r3 (2016). Seeking Advice & opinions.

STATUS: RESOLVED

[Update: 26th January 2017]
Dear NBR community, I'd like to thank you for your help & advice regarding my situation. If a mod could lock this thread for future reference, I'd be very grateful.

Frank Azor personally looked into the matter & followed up. Refund was offered & accepted.

After much argument & rationalization with the ARG Group & Mr. Frank Azor' (Mr. Azor's office got in touch with me a few days after I hailed him on Twitter, first, with a flurry of tweets & then, when he sent me a message via DM), I've accepted an offer for refund (accounting for 15% deprecation on the purchase price, since I used my 17r3 for a good 3 months before it started giving me problems).
It has been relayed via correspondence that the amount will be credited to my bank account within a couple of working days (around the 28th of January, 2017).

Meanwhile, I went ahead & bought an awesome MSI GT72VR 7RE Dominator Pro. It's absolutely fantastic!

If you'd like to talk to me about the specifics of the case/situation:
Twitter: @ disassembler ( https://twitter.com/Disassembler )
Linkedin: Disassembler ( https://in.linkedin.com/in/disassembler )
or, on NBR Forums, as well.

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Note:Before I begin, I'd like to thank the community in advance, for your responses and the respective moderators for shifting my previous post to the appropriate sub-forum (if it is wrongly placed). Dear Moderators, if this thread does not align with the interests of the community/forum, kindly notify me, instead of deleting it. I will respond at the earliest (Changes will be made within an hour, ideally. However, I assume the outer timeframe to be within 2-3 hours.) make the appropriate changes to ensure that this thread abides by the forum rules & guidelines.

I would also like to clarify that this is not a rant. I seek genuine opinions from fellow users/gamers & the international community as a whole regarding my matter.

A complete documentation of my experience with my Alienware 17r3 (2016) and Dell India on Steam forums:
( here )

A link to the Google Drive folder (actively updated) I’ve shared that contains several screenshots, DOCX files & other relevant media pertaining to my situation:
( here ) -- Link is now inactive. Files & directories will be locally stored for reference.

[7th December, 2016] Update: Dell Advanced Resolution Group agent (called back today) continually tries to assure me that this device is built for such high temperatures (as high as 97 deg C) instead of admitting that the product (as a whole) is faulty. When I told him about the AIDA64 results and how high the temperatures (PCH & CPU) went during testing, he told me that they do not accept results from any third party software. I told him that it was not just the AIDA64 results -- my games (Battlefield 1, Titanfall 2, Gears of War 4, Hitman, Rise of the Tomb Raider, Quantum Outbreak, The Division, Watchdogs 2, and similar) are lagging to the tune of 2-11 FPS. The frames per second fluctuate from 400 FPS to 2 FPS to 11 FPS and back to 400 FPS at random intervals across several games. Even more so, during extended gaming sessions! Applications sometimes take time to load, as well. If this isn't lag, I don't know what is. This is outrageous!
Moreover, he kept asking me how I measured the temperature and FPS in-game in a ridiculous tone. According to him, even if any light third party software is in the background (even something lightweight like HWinfo64 / CPU-Z), the system will be stressed and generate more heat.

The ARG agent even mentioned over the phone, I quote, "All these parts have been replaced at your request".
What the hell does that even mean? It's a defective product with a track record for overheating & diminutive performance. It's almost as if he meant to suggest that the parts were replaced at my request and not because their "engineers" found something wrong with it as well? Their support staff aided with 95% of the troubleshooting. THEY diagnosed the system & ascertained the need for parts' replacement.

He seems adamant on iterating that parts will be replaced, as per the service agreement while refusing to admit that my 17r3 is faulty despite all service done till date. He also refuses to acknowledge the Notebook Review community, this forum post & the comments fellow members have posted.
It's like an elaborate cover-up .
I told him that the phone conversation clearly wasn't working out for the both of us & that I'd rather he contact me via email instead before hanging up. I want to get all of this on the record in the form of formal email correspondence.
At this rate, looks like my lawyer's going to have an early Christmas.

[5th December, 2016] UPDATE: AIDA64 Extreme Edition Results confirmed my suspicions. It's touching even higher temperatures (97 degrees Celsius) than before on-site servicing. PCH Temperatures seem way too high, as well. I've uploaded the report to my Google Drive Folder ( https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BynIJD_FQlrIbXlQc3M5dDZuYlE ).

Logs & data have been shared in the Google Drive folder. I will personally update the contents of the same as I gather more data about the product post-service.

Components of this post:
1. Conversation with Agent from Advanced Resolution Group
2. Background Information about my system
3. Recommended Course of Action
4. My views on the situation
5. TLDR; (fast-forwards to my question)

1. CONVERSATION WITH AGENT FROM ADVANCED RESOLUTION GROUP

An agent (Mr. SKM) from the Indian corporate office has been assigned to my case. He contacted me yesterday (during and after the parts replacement & servicing on my product was performed). A screenshot of the correspondence email has been uploaded to my shared folder in the Google Drive link above.

I was informed by the agent that the Alienware 17r3 is not like most Alienware products. It cannot be compared to any other laptop made my any other brand. According to him, it also cannot be compared to another Alienware 17r3 (2016) from the same production batch (or from other batches, for that matter). He claimed to have experiences with several 17r3 laptops and as per our conversation, he said that no two laptops were the same. I tend to agree with the latter statement.

As he suggested, it may generate more heat due to greater processing/rendering power (it's logical). However, he seemed adamant on stating that 93 degrees Celsius was "normal" as far as Intel i7-6700HQ (6th Gen CPU) temperatures go and that the laptop had not generated an excess amount of heat. It could not be termed as “overheating”.

He pointed me to Intel's ARK specifications page saying that up to 100 degrees Celsius was okay.

As per my knowledge, that (100~ deg C) is the Cap for TJMax ( link here) nearing which the processor starts throttling and shuts down beyond a point.

He said that the processor is just a part of the entire system and if I had a problem with it, he could offer replacement of the CPU if it malfunctions.

Dissatisfied with the reply, I told him to leave the processor aside and refer to the product as a whole. The product was not giving the desired experience. The CPU, GPU & PCH all at abnormally high temperatures prior to servicing (I have not yet tested my system out post-service). I have observed that the product (as a whole) is (over)heating which causes lag across almost all games I play (even optimised ones), that causes a temporary (intermittent) dip in performance & FPS. In my opinion & in the collective opinion of the gamers’ association that I'm a part of (here in India), this level of heating in a gaming/high-performance product is unacceptable. Several gamers in the association are long time Alienware product owners. Most of them have rigs & setups that would put mine to shame. They were appalled by the response I got & deemed the entire experience (product+service) to be unacceptable.

If anyone has a better point of view, please feel free to comment on this thread

2. BACKGROUND INFORMATION ABOUT MY SYSTEM
More than 80% of my product (Motherboard, Fan Assembly, Keyboard, Power Brick, Killer Wireless Module, Power Button, HDD, Thermal Pasting, LHS Macro Keys, etc.) has been replaced in the form of “in-warranty parts replacement” for various reasons (all of which are documented) over the past 6 months. My laptop even has a scratch (on the panel on the back of the screen) caused due to mishandling by a technician (I’ve uploaded a picture to my Google Drive folder). The scratch is not covered under warranty, I was told.

For reference, I bought my laptop 7 months ago (it is still in warranty). It would seem that the product had a manufacturing defect (as a whole) which resulted in such problems, leading resulting in so many service tickets.

3. MY VIEWS ON THE SITUATION

I cannot believe Dell/Alienware approves of such high temperatures and such dismal/inconsistent performance. Such temperatures are not "normal", by any standards.
If they are in-fact normal, the community needs to be made aware of this claim so potential customers can choose another brand/laptop in the same range that offers superior cooling and/or a better service and/or a more customer-friendly replacement/refund policy.

We’re clearly spending way too much money on a product that (based on what I was told) will not be refunded/replaced. I’m of the opinion that this purchase is turning out to be a waste of money and time that could have been spent more productively.

I seek opinions and intend to put forth all my points & my arguments across in a formal email to top Dell Executives and the agent in charge of this situation so that it goes on the record.
I'm absolutely certain executives other gaming brands & fellow gamers/users would concur with me. The local gaming community already expressed its approval of my argument in principle during our meeting. I think I need to put this across internationally as well.
I plan to put my case across to tech-journalists, distributors, retailers, bloggers, columnists, fellow gamers and youtubers either way. They need to be aware of a product, the brand and its policies before purchasing it for themselves/clients and/or recommending it to others.

4. RECOMMENDED COURSE OF ACTION
I've consulted the local (& regional) gaming community, the gaming association that I'm a part of, some friends (who own Alienware products themselves), my technical advisor, my business partners, my legal advisor and several others.

As of today, the consensus is that either one of the following should be done:
1) Push for complete product replacement (Avoid refurbished replacements & decline to acknowledge if they offer any refurbished product) & an extension warranty
2) Request for a complete refund and return their product.
3) Take Dell to the consumer court (and if that fails, to the High Court) regarding my problem.
4) If all else fails, I was also advised to silently wait out its warranty period & resell it as a second hand laptop in the offline market. I will then use the proceeds to buy a new laptop (ASUS ROG/MSI) of my choice.

I seek advice from the Notebook Review community as well.

5. TLDR;

My laptop is still giving me several problems and has started heating up (PCH goes as far as 80 deg C under 40 minutes of minor load. I'm sure I could push it higher with an extended gaming session), considerably, again.

As one user (and gamer) to several others, would such levels of heat prior to servicing, having replaced so many parts in a product still within warranty and having received such a response by an authorized agent after such an ordeal (product is still in warranty) be collectively acceptable to you, if you were a customer in my situation?

What would you do?

 

If the paste job and heatsink are good the temps should be around 70~75c for the 6700hq. butnif your ambient temps are 35c it could be easily 10c higher as well.

 

No its BIOS (I mean faulty 1.2.x versions), if you're able to do a BIOS update to 1.3.6 or higher and install intel DPTF v8.2 to get those temps down to your ambient temps. I'd advise you to follow what @rinneh said and your problems would be solved. Also, disable all those Dell services too that maybe consuming more cpu in the background and causing the system to overheat.
As @rinneh said about excessive power that could burst the power brick's cord whilst using BIOS 1.2.x versions. Update to 1.3.6 or higher ASAP.

 

I would request a replacement and then sell the replacement as a new product to get your money back (or most of it), and go from there.

Most definitely replacement time.

 

93C under light loads sounds like an issue.
You should try Prime95 + Furmark and see what temperatures you get.

My 2 weeks old Inspiron 7566 with i5 6300HQ + 960M easily hits 99C on that test. It's on the way back for a refund btw.

Seeing that R4 is out, I would ask for an upgrade (top up at your cost) to R4 because it has a better cooling system.

It's been only 7 months so you can still buy the extended warranty if the above option doesn't work out. The time lost and effort to constantly "fix" it with Alienware is not worth it. I will never buy a product with an inherent flaw.

 

Ambient temperature here, in Mumbai, as per present weather, in my particular location, is 26.5 deg C. My room is well ventilated, the AC's on literally whenever I'm on for a gaming session.
On-site engineer did a great (re)paste-job, replaced the fans & heatsink assembly. However, the 6700HQ easily registers readings of up to 80 deg C under minor load even after servicing.

The Dell On-site Service Engineer (re)installed v1.2.14 during his visit. I've downloaded the 1.3.6 binary executable. Will double-check it, take a backup of everything I have here & flash it.
I've already disabled all (unnecessary) Dell background services, so I doubt they'll pose a problem.

I concur. That's exactly what I thought would be the best possible approach! Dell India has betrayed my trust, as a customer, with such services & such a (premium) product. I'd rather recover whatever money I invested in this product and go for another (reliable) product/brand. I've never had such bad experiences with a regular laptop, let alone a premium one. It's a waste of time & money.

I'll give Prime95 & Furmark a whirl. I'm also going to try AIDA64's tests & benchmarks while I'm at it.

Absolutely! A 17R4 (top up) with a 1080 would be fantastic for a replacement, if it does (indeed) have a better cooling system. I'm not too keen on purchasing Alienware products again.

 

What happens when you do a stresstest with XTU for example on the CPU only? Is it only a peak of 80c by the way of a constant? Because if the CPU heats up quickly you will have a peak but when the fans kick in, it quickly cools down.

Also dont expect every alienware laptop to be trouvlesome. Most users are probably happy with their purchase including me. Monday morning models/lemons are sold by every brand unfortunately.

 

UPDATE: AIDA64 Extreme Edition Results confirmed my suspicions. It's reaching even higher temperatures (97 degrees celsius) than before on-site servicing. PCH temperatures seem way too high, as well. I've uploaded the report to my Google Drive Folder ( https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BynIJD_FQlrIbXlQc3M5dDZuYlE )

I've yet to try testing the CPU individually, however, I'm sure the AIDA64 result is comprehensive on some counts. I'll try to revert with XTU results in a while.
Expecting every Alienware laptop to be troublesome would be unreasonable & impractical. I'm glad you're enjoying your purchase & hope your laptop fares better than mine.

However, I wish to caution the community since 2 more friends of mine (both, Alienware owners) have stood up & registered complaints regarding issues in their AW17s after I took the initiative.
Seems like it's a toss up between two probable things - a design flaw in the entire SERIES, OR a manufacturing defect in my particular product.

 

I think the idle temps are way higher than normal. Probably its the board and PSU unit that is showing signs of another failure.

 

There's a very good chance Volta will be announced in May. Replace that expensive paper weight!

 

Well i can assure you it is not a common design flaw in the entire series. Your PC is pretty much identical to mine. Considering the AW15R2 motherboard is the exact same one as the AW17R3. My temps are under load about 74c on the hottest core and 70c on the lowest core. 66c max on the GPU. Ambient temp is now about 22c where I am.

But i did notice the fans only kick in when the CPU reach a temp of 60c. BUt it can peak to 70c for example for the first 2 seconds until the fans do their job.

 

I've actually stopped using my laptop because it gets too hot, now. I also fear for heat damage to my NVMe 950 Pro. As you said, it's probably the board.

I'm aware of the board being the same. When the first engineer came and replaced the board, it said "15r2" in the BIOS entry. Then, he flashed the update & it reflected with "17r3" in the same entry.

Your laptop's temperatures are perfect for a 15R2, in my opinion. I sort of expected mine to be similar (More or less +5 degrees Celsius, in my case). I've also updated the logs in my folder (You could navigate to the 'Alienware 17r3 AIDA64 results' subfolder for the same).

If it isn't a design flaw (I tend to agree with you), I would imagine it's a manufacturing defect (in the product, as a whole) that's causing all these issues. 90% of the laptop's parts have been replaced in under 6 months.

 

@disassembler:If your luck is great, you could ask Dell for complete replacement for either 17 R3 or R4. AFAIK, there isn't much support from other OEMs that make gaming lappies in India. I hope Clevo, Razer to come to India to cherish gamers.

 

I'm unsure of how to go about the entire process of asking for the replacement when the Dell Advanced Resolution Group agent (he called back today) continually tries to assure me that this device is built for such high temperatures (as high as 97 deg C) instead of admitting that the product (as a whole) is faulty. When I told him about the AIDA64 results and how high the temperatures (PCH & CPU) went during testing, he told me that they do not accept results from any third party software. I told him that it was not just the AIDA64 results -- my games (Battlefield 1, Titanfall 2, Gears of War 4, Hitman, Rise of the Tomb Raider, Quantum Outbreak, The Division, Watchdogs 2, and similar) are lagging to the tune of 2-11 FPS. The frames per second fluctuate from 400 FPS to 2 FPS to 11 FPS and back to 400 FPS at random intervals across several games. Even more so, during extended gaming sessions! Applications sometimes take time to load, as well, under such conditions. If this isn't lag, I don't know what is. This is outrageous!

Moreover, he keeps asking me how I measure the temperature and FPS when in-game as if to ridicule me. According to him, even if any light third party software is in the background (even something lightweight like HWinfo64 / CPU-Z), the system will be stressed and generate more heat.
He seems adamant on iterating that parts will be replaced, as per the service agreement while refusing to admit that my 17r3 is faulty despite all service done till date. He also refuses to acknowledge the Notebook Review community, this forum post & the comments fellow members have posted.

It's like an elaborate cover-up to their entire scheme.
I told him that the phone conversation clearly wasn't working out for the both of us since we were interrupting each other mid-conversation. He clearly wasn't getting my point. I also said that I'd rather he contact me via email instead before I hung up.
At this rate, looks like my lawyer's going to have an early Christmas.

 

Use the Alienware Command Center to record your playing sessions, your framedrop will most likely be related to a CPU or GPU throttling, or even both. You will be able to see a perfomance drop from the GPU or a 100% of the CPU (from my own experience, I had this along the frame drop you said). You will be using they own software to prove that a machine built to run games, is not performing as it should be.

Write a long email, write everything they did to your machine, attach proofs of all the trouble you had. Do not even try to speak to the indian support by phone, they will never let you speak (also from my own experience).

 

You could tell them, PC shuts off every time even if I game even at lowest settings (hint!!).

 

Lol, I doubt that'd work again. I already told him that! The person at the other end is a seasoned employee from the administrative department. He's tried every trick in the book to pin it on it being "normal". As a customer, I'm shocked. I can only assume that they're trying to get me in a loop so that I get frustrated, deem the issue to be resolved and stop calling them.

Thanks Alex. It seems you have had quite some experience with your Alienware as well. I seriously doubt it'll do the trick, after today's diplomatic & defensive reply from the ARG agent. He seemed hellbent on trying to get me to replace parts again (I'm not sitting through a 4½ hour service session again, no thank you).. But for the sake of it, I'll give it a try. It's beginning to become counterproductive for me, as a professional, since I'm wasting hours documenting this thing with the hope that Dell will finally acknowledge my case & grant me a replacement. All this time and money could have been saved if I never purchased the Alienware 17r3 in the first place. As far as experiences with Alienware products go, mine have evidently been very negative.

I can't believe I paid upwards of ₹1,60,000 for such a horrible "gaming" laptop. It's disappointing.

 

I've been there. When they sent my case to the Advanced Group, they tried to replace my system for a refurbished one, and then I sent a huge email, saying everything I did to solve the problem changing parts and everything and then he replied the next day with the aprooval for a brand new replacement. My issue was a on-site technician that was always escalated to replace my parts and he always screwed the system when trying to replace the mobo. Well, I hope that work out for you, it did for me.

 

Atleast your ARG agent offered complete replacement after much pursuasion. I've sent several huge emails over the past few days documenting everything wrong with my system (and my experience with their service). The ARG agent still says that he can only replace parts as of now. I'm afraid my plea for complete replacement falls on deaf ears. They've replaced so many parts - and screwed it up even more, in the process - that it's barely the same product I received 7 months ago.

The ARG agent even mentioned over the phone, I quote, "All these parts have been replaced at your request".
What the hell does that even mean? It's a defective product with a track record for overheating & diminutive performance. It's almost as if he meant to suggest that the parts were replaced at my request and not because their "engineers" found something wrong with it as well? Their support staff aided with 95% of the troubleshooting. THEY diagnosed the system & ascertained the need for parts' replacement.

 

Well, that sucks. Give it a shot using their own software to prove that the f*cking gaming system is not doing its job while gaming

 

Guess it's worth a try. Thanks for your help, Alex. Repped you. Your inputs have been invaluable.

 

You're welcome man. I hope you get a brand new AW 17R4.

 

@disassembler

Bro im from india too and their customer service is well what the duck.Push for a complete system replacement tell them its not acceptable. Try repasting with gelid extereme or icd 7 if the repaste is also not working then u should strongly push for the 17 r4 they will be lauched in india during december end , jan 1 week.

After reading ur problems i highly suspect the motherboard is bonked (bad chips both cpu and gpu) + might have been repaired way too many times cause dell gives refurbished parts.

Dell service sucks in india period and in the name of parts replacement all they give is refurbed crap.Better to stay away.

If u want ur money back only case is to sue them or if u know someone high enough then talk to them.

And if ur gonna buy a new laptop much better option would be clevo azom systems if ur aware.

Just look at the new 15r3/17r4 thread its plagued with problems the heatsink is screwed a design flaw to say.

Please check the asic quality using gpuz

@VICKYGAMEBOY maybe he can shed some light as he has been through the same ordeal.

Also have u updated the bios to the latest version ?

 

Service Engineer used Arctic Silver equivalent thermal paste for the repasting. He pasted it well, so I don't have a problem with that. Laptop still overheated despite the repasting, so I concluded that the pasting is not the issue.

Yeah, I think the Mobo is all messed up as well. Way too many parts have been replaced.

Clevo and Razer are great brands, in my opinion, but it's a bit difficult to find their laptops in India. Will have to import either's products which could increase the cost by a fair bit.

If 15r3/17r4 is flawed as well, I'm wary of getting the 17r3 upgraded during replacement!

I'll fire up GPUZ & give it a look, in a while, as soon as I get back home.

I hope @VICKYGAMEBOY can share his experience either here or in the inbox. Will message him in a bit.

I've updated the BIOS to 1.3.6 & installed DPTF as @Vasudev suggested. Difference is not noticeable, since Gears of War 4 started lagging very heavily last night during a multiplayer session with a friend. I'll give other games a try as well. I doubt it's a BIOS issue, for that same reason.

 

As5 is crap, i assume u have tried everything so do u have any trustworthy guy who can repaste ur laptop or can u repaste urself, i would advice to buy gelid extreme or better ic diamond 7 if the heatsink is uneven also how are ur thermal pads are they damaged or are they new ?

I think it may be a bad repaste, if temps are consistently bad i had a dell guy once over for repaste instead of using a pea drop he covered my entire die with the thermal paste like frosting on a cake.Do a repaste urself or from someone trustworthy.

Also please refrain from using fumark it burks out the gpu.Try undervolting using xtu and use occt for stress tests.

 

Dont say that too loud, Razer has a lot of troubles, check out the subforum there. CLevo isnt always great either. It simply comes down to this. Every brand has lemons.

 

Fair enough. Having said that, Alienware probably presented me with a lemon the size of a pumpkin, in that case. I'd be hard-pressed to make some lemonade out of this whopper.

My business partner handles hardware at my company. He has the steadiest hands I've seen & regularly assembles/fixes desktops. He's very skilled. I could ask him to repaste it, however he did caution me regarding warranty issues that may arise from an unauthorized repaste.

I noticed (during the service session) that the thermal pads are in relatively good condition, considering all the heat generated over the past few gaming sessions.

I've taken a call to remove my 950 Pro, format the AW17R3 & reinstall Win10 on the HDD that it shipped with. I can't risk heat damage on my SSD - will install it on my work laptop (an upgraded MSI GL62QF).

 

I u want help or advice in regards to repasting and other things @iunlock is the guy.Second, no repasting does not void ur warranty unless u break something while repasting thats ur responsibility.

Also use gelid extreme or thermal grizzly kryonaut for the repaste and if possible chamge the thermal pads with the fujipoly ones.