Alienware 2015 - your views on BGA vs. upgradeable CPU sockets and MXM slots

As the title suggest, please feel free to DEBATE as much as you like, but please be civil to one another.

Seconds out, go for it if you wish to discuss the merits, pros or cons of either BGA or sockets/slots.

 

Why not post this in the hardware subforum? There are literally numerous laptops that are BGA.

Here's why I think socketed slots in this laptop are useless.

1. We're at the tail end of Haswell. Haswell used the LGA964 for mobile and LGA1150/LGA2011 for desktop. Broadwell mobile is BGA only, and the desktop doesn't really matter because Broadwell isn't focused on high end performance its focused on low-mid end performance and power consumption.

Skylake mobile is BGA only. Skylake desktop uses a whole brand new socket: LGA 1151. Moving past skylake Intel will most likely be BGA only. There isn't some giant conspiracy. Just as chips get smaller the socket becomes a limiting factor. As for the changing sockets, well its new technology...kindoff silly to expect them to stick to a single socket design forever.

Anyways, your upgrade opportunities outside of Haswell are virtually zero. So just like us with BGA processors you're going to be locked into this generation and nothing more.

2. Like its already been mentioned elsewhere. Most of Alienwares customers don't upgrade their CPU/GPU. Companies are going to focus on their biggest customer base. Not the small enthusiast minority. It doesn't matter what Alienware did in the past, that market doesn't exist in large numbers anymore.

3. On the GPU side in a few years I can buy a desktop GPU and the GA and get vastly better performance than a single MXM card while being significantly cheaper. Compared to SLI MXM cards the performance will be slightly less but it'll be 1/3rd the cost (for a desktop x80 series card, and 2/3rds the cost for a titan). Not to mention the other benefits like warranty, GA being pretty close to plug and play.

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Now as to the benefits of socketed CPU/GPUs

- If something goes wrong with the CPU/GPU in the future and your warranty has expired, it'll be cheaper to fix it. Yes you can swap out a soldered on chip but its significantly more complicated and time consuming.

- You can upgrade CPUs within this current generation. That thing is essentially meaningless if you already own the best CPU thats available for it. Ie those of you with 4930MX/4940MXs aren't really going to be able to upgrade to anything better.

 

This is pertinent to those who are considering Alienware as a choice as a high end gaming notebook, that's why it has been posted in the Alienware sub-forums. You cannot compare a run of the mill ultrabook to an Alienware high end gaming notebook. You simply cannot compare every BGA notebook as in the same category. I thought this was common sense. This is more so to do with Dell/Alienwares move from sockets and slots to BGA and the pros and cons behind it. I thought the thread title was pretty much self explanatory.

Interesting to hear your thoughts on maintaining performance through the GA upgrades - how do you plan on dealing with a future bottleneck?

 

Except that are numerous gaming laptops that are BGA only too.

You want to talk about the pros and cons of socketed CPUs / GPUs then why not get their input too? The reason Alienware chose to do it doesn't change the pros and the cons of sockets vs BGA.

I mean if Alienware were the only company doing it then sure post it here, but they aren't. MSI, and Asus are two other major manufacturers that have done it too.

Well for most games the CPU isn't really a bottleneck, and when I get to a point where the CPU is a bottleneck then I it'll be time for a new laptop anyways (mine gets moved around and used pretty heavily since I use it both for work, home and gaming).

I mean for discussion sake lets assume that Alienware decided to go with socketed CPUs and you got a 4940MX. You'll hit the same bottlenecks too just a couple of months later with overclocking (at stock performance the two chips are relatively similar). And there are no more upgrade paths available, both broadwell and skylake are BGA only for their mobile chips.

So that 4940MX that cost you $1100 will be the best processor that your laptop will ever see. Just like my 4980HQ which costs $600 will be the best processor that my laptop will ever see.

 

I repeat, this is about Alienware and its decision to go BGA on everything - if you do not like the discussion, or if you feel it it is more suited to a general non-Alienware related thread, please feel free to create your own thread in said sub forum. Please do not deviate from the topic on hand here. Okay?

With that said, what about those customers who can't afford a 4980HQ configuration - how will they cope with a bottleneck? - end users buying a 13 or 15 with much lower cpu's. How is that going to affect them if they are thinking that the GA is the answer to all their needs?

 

I listed that as a pro:

 

I'm sorry, maybe I've not read your response correctly, but how is it a 'pro' if you cannot afford a machine (17) with a 4980HQ and later on come up against a bottleneck. Example being a GA with a base 13 with an I5 4210U ??

 

A pro for socketed CPUS. Read my original post again near the bottom.

 

Okay. Gotcha. My apologies.

Still, for someone who configures with an I5 4210U, how do you think that is gonna pan out? - obviously it is just 15 and 17 that have I7's and the 15 is limited to a lower I7 than the 17.....

 

Well lets be honest here. The cheapest 13" laptop is $900 (at least here in the US, I can't speak for worldwide). Without any coupons or haggling and only going by the base 10% coupon thats floating around (and there's 15-20% ones too) that drops the price to $810.

Sure I completely agree the CPU isn't the most powerful. But for $810-900? I doubt the people who are buying the cheapest alienware 13 are going to be willing to spend to $300-400 (or well $600 for a high end model) to upgrade their CPU to a better one in a few years. It simply doesn't make any sense.

 

Pro for BGA: You will be able to buy processors in the future.

 

That's really not answering the question, though. The whole ethos promoted by Alienware is that you can hook up a GA and get desktop performance. They advertise this across the entire new line up. Nowhere is it mentioned that your I5 4210U will be a cause for concern if you hook up a GA with a Titan X, for example.

Now, I know you have said that Alienware are now targeting the 'mainstream' market of those who just want to 'buy and go' but surely, this is akin to leading someone up the garden path, no?

You've mentioned previously that people just want something to 'work' and that most users don't really know much about technology - well how is that going to work if you are a 'mainstream' Alienware 13 buyer who has read into the GA thinking "Oh, if I get one of them, I'll be sorted for years to come......"

The same could be said for 'mainstream' tech-unsavvy customers buying a 15 with a 4710.

 

Well you do get a bottleneck sure. But you still get vastly better performance than the dGPU that comes with the AW13.

Even if it was a socketed CPU and GA it will still be a low powered one and then you'd have the same complaint, it won't be "true desktop performance" without spending half of the laptops worth on a better CPU down the line. If you're spending <$900 on a mainstream gaming laptops there are going to be compromises unless you're expecting people who spend $900 on a laptop (say with socketed CPU/GPU) to then spend $1000-1400 in the future to upgrade the CPU and the GPU...at that price point you might as well buy a new laptop sockets or not.

Either way none of you enthusiasts like the GA.

My R1 comes with the 4700MQ and it's a fine chip. Unless you're looking for maximum performance / have money to spend / got a great deal there's really no point to get anything faster. The real world performance difference is going to be negligible.

 

But therin lies the rub. Dell are selling the 13 with GA as a desktop solution, which to those 'mainstream' customers who just want a machine to 'work' will think is heaven in a box. As you like to talk about people who don't know what MXM etc is, they are hardly likely to know what a bottleneck is either. I imagine that they expect when they hook their 13 up to a GA, they'll get BAM.....GTX980 style performance, which is not exactly true.

As for you 4710MQ, I agree for gaming, but there are Alienware customers who use their machines for other things.....things that rely on cpu performance.

 

The entire market is shifting to this crap because it's cheaper to produce and eventually needs to be replaced. Pads the bottom line much more nicely. Gives CEO's an even nicer bonus at the end of the year. That's pretty much the only reason companies are moving toward this - it's all about the money.

Cell phones are a great example of this trend: People holding the iPhone 6 today will have an obsolete phone by September of this year, and in 2-3 years, you'll more than likely need a new one altogether. That's what they're banking on. They're capitalizing on and destroying the upgradeable market. If you're a parts company, I suggest you find alternatives, and soon. Your future is in jeopardy.

What does this mean for you, the consumer? Do not purchase more than 2 years of warranty, and get the best freaking deal possible on your Alienware. That thing will depreciate like nothing we've ever seen before. With Pascal around the corner, even the weakest of the Pascal GPU's (e.g. 1060M) will outperform the 970M, assuming the reported facts by NVIDIA hold true. Nobody will want your system, and you will want to upgrade. This is going to be a problem for some enthusiasts still grasping on.

 

So wait you originally started this discussion about people who can't afford a better laptop. And now suddenly those people can afford a GTX 980 and a graphics amplifier? So people who cannot afford to spend more than $900 on a laptop, can now suddenly afford to spend $900 on top of that to get a top of the line GPU and amplifier? That's some odd logic there. Most likely those people will be buying a midrange desktop GPU like a 960.

But for discussions sake lets assume what you said is completely true. Nobody who buys a cheap laptop is expecting amazing performance. They're going to be expecting average performance and thats exactly what the cheap laptop and GA gives them.

But this topic is about socketed CPUs and GPUs. Like I already said even if dell offered socketed CPUs in the AW 13, the cheapest one will still have a very low powered CPU. Your complaint will be EXACTLY the same unless you're expecting them to buy a GA, a 980, and a better CPU sometime in the future which is a preposterous thought.

And if you're one of those people then you're going to be spending money on a better CPU anyways so I'm not seeing your point.

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Anyways lets be honest people who buy the cheapest alienwares aren't the ones complaining about BGA. It's the enthusiasts who spend couple of thousands are complaining about BGA and always talking about upgrading to the latest and the greatest. The CPU upgrade thing affects them directly because lets face it, there are no more upgrades available to them. That's the best processor that laptop will ever take. There aren't anymore LGA upgrades and their won't be.

On the GPU side. The people with the R2 can upgrade to a desktop GPU which is far cheaper than an MXM card.

I've already said multiple times now that a socketed CPU is better for upgrades within that class, so stop trying to find these absurd situations to force your viewpoint. I'm not arguing that fact and nobody is arguing that fact.

Well lets be brutally honest here.

Nobody believes Nvidias facts. They always find this tiny ass random situation that doesn't exist 99% of the time and claim ludicrous performance figures.

I mean if you go by their driver figures alone, my old R1 should be running every game at like 500 fps now. I mean don't you remember when the 880M series came out, Nvidia were claiming 50%+ performance increases with some games getting more than 30fps! What was the real end result? It was like a 10% performance increase.

 

Offering dual-core CPU's in gaming laptops is just stupid. I can't even believe it. Offering a 970M with the i5-4210U and charging more than $1500? LOL. Not to mention they're still using 4th generation hardware while the 5th generation hardware is out, and the 6th generation stuff is coming out at the end of this year. I bet they're making so much money on these systems, lol.

 

Why would AW use broadwell? Broadwell isn't focused on performance at all its like 4%. It's all about power consumption. Hell their quad core CPUs aren't even out yet but they also won't be focused on performance.

If you want performance the haswell chips are simply superior in that respect. As for Skylake, it's not going to be out till the end of the year (and its rumored to be delayed a little bit further than that) so that's right about the time that AW will refresh their lineup anyways.

 

That's exactly why they should have waited. I just don't understand what's going on with Alienware these days. Who in the hell hit their head? What happened to Alienware? May as well rename the company. That's not Alienware anymore.

Don't ever use the 880M in an argument. That is the worst GPU NVIDIA has ever launched.

 

Waited for the broadwell quad core? Or waited for skylake?

For broadwell it's pointless. The haswell chips are essentially equal on performance. You're not going to see any performance gains from anything by going broadwell unless you really care about gaming on the iGPU and even then the performance difference is small.

As for waiting for skylake, AW refreshes every year so they'll be coming out with a new lineup anyways.

Its just an example of how nvidia bullshits about their performance improvements lol.

I'm willing to bet you the 970M will still be superior to the 1060M. I've never ever trusted any hardware manufacturers benchmarks, I never will and to date I've never been wrong. They all exaggerate the **** out of them.

 

They should have waited with the soldered CPU altogether until Skylake quad-cores come out. This entire 2015 lineup should really be a 2016 lineup. Alienware is not about energy saving, or at least it wasn't supposed to be. Doesn't make any sense what they're doing.

 

Oh right. I see what you mean.

They're essentially following what other mainstream manufacturers are doing.

Asus, MSI etc are all following the same trend, since AW competes directly against them now then it makes sense that AW would do similar things.

 

All I know is... I hate these changes. Just hope Alienware finds out who's holding their balls just in case they need them in 2016/2017.

 

The only way to force that to happen is to make the enthusiast market bigger.

Sadly that market is dying and has been declining for years now. As long as that market continues to decline every manufacturer (including eventually clevo across the majority of their range) is going to start going towards the mainstream route.

I mean look at how many enthusiast level gaming laptops existed in the 2000s? Sure a lot of them were clevo resellers but they all made it a point to differentiate their laptops, they looked different, they felt different. Nowadays all the clevo reseller laptops look identical save for like lid color and badge. All the remaining resellers are essentially competing with themselves to make money in a very small market, and with the rate its declining they will either have to change or start dying off.

 

steviejones133 I liked the title of the thread you made. The main problem with soldered hardware is that the laptop can be made thinner with weaker cooling. This makes this laptop computer less suitable for processor overclocking. With BGA hardware manufacturers removes your ability to overclock your hardware. This should not be doubted. Before boasted Dell unfettered that their AW laptops had factory overclocked processors in laptops that could be worn, now they brag that processors are overclocked only when they are connected to a G / A ... I thought that a laptop should also be portable with max cpu perfomance and overclocking. This is a downgrade of processor performance.
Why is this so the processors in new Alienware Laptop only be able to overclock when they are connected to a graphics amplifier? What exactly is the point of have a laptop where the processor can not overclocked when you are out traveling? Should you only get the extra performance from the processor when you are home?

 

Ironically, they made the systems thinner and botched the BIOS while still using the same old hot hardware from last year, lol.

 

One can not overclock hefty both processor and graphics card when the cooling is too weak due to thinner design.
This understood Dell, when they wrote the article this way. They know that the cooling in AW is to week...
A processor that can only be overclocked with dGPU disabled... What is the purpose?

 

Um that has nothing to do with LGA vs BGA. BGA doesn't mean that a manufacturer HAS to make a thinner / lighter laptop. It just means that they can do so if they choose to.

 

The best purpose of using bga hardware is that you can make the laptop/tablet thinner. When they do it this way other problems appear(come).

 

Yes but they don't have to.

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Sigh at the end of the day this thread is all but completely useless.

The people who like LGA are going to stick to their beliefs. The people who couldn't care less are going to stick to their beliefs. At the end of the day nothing is going to change, the same people are going to be on the same sides. Nothing has changed in the past few months, nothing will change in the next few months.

You like LGA, good for you be happy with whatever laptop you have and stop finding ways to make others feel bad about their purchase. Same thing goes for those people who don't really give a ****, I (they) enjoy their laptops and they shouldn't find ways to make others feel bad about their purchase.

Really this thread is going to turn into nothing but a giant circlejerk by people on both sides. It'll be the same arguments thrown back and forth a billion times and nobody is going to change their minds.

 

Pretty much.

 

Why started Msi to produce a new laptop witht dual mmx gtx980m "MSI Gt80 Titan"?

 

The GT80 is an exception. But compared to MSIs entire other lineup the new AW is on the same level as those.

As to why AW got rid of the 18 inch one it could have simply been that the laptop didn't sell well enough. They're not going to get rid of a product that got great sales, it would be lunacy.

 

to make others feel bad about their purchase.
This is no I desire and that is not something we(I) want....

 

I didn't say anyone was doing that (yet) did I?

But you know as well as I do that these threads always end up derailing into that. And its not surprising, you have two viewpoints with people who firmly believe in them. It's like having two walls arguing...neither is going to budge.

Hence why there's literally no point to this thread. The pros for LGA have been repeated a billion times, the cons for LGA have been repeated a billion times. The pros for BGA have been reported a billion times, the cons for BGA have been repeated a billion times. There's literally nothing new that comes out of these discussions, everyone already knows everything thats going to be said.

The people who like LGA are going to keep liking LGA and they're not going to change their mind. The people who don't care about LGA / BGA are going to continue not caring about LGA / BGA and not going to change their mind.

 

Lol no socket? not high end

 

If Dell had continued with socket processors another a year before Skylake processors coming, would not Alienware Laptop been so dam thin now and with weaker cooling. Then it would most likely also been mmx graphics cards in them. Then it would have been possible with high end extreme processors, good overclocking and better cooling on these AW laptop. Dell should waited with the thin design to the new hardware come .. There is no shortage of socket processors or graphics cards in the market so there is no reason to replace these with soldered hardware. If Skylake comes with BGA processors could none of us complained and all had to accept the new soldered hardware. That the renowned Alienware is one of the laptop with all hardware soldered Already now is a big paradox...

 

I'm hoping that an unlocked bios for my machine opens up a few more cpu tweaking options. The gpu being upgradable is far more important to a gamer.

Intel is basically not allowing new motherboard designs with socket based CPUs so it's not surprising no new systems use them.

 

Dell should waited a year to create such a thin laptop. When they made the laptop so thin, there was no alternative other than to use soldered graphics.

 

I'd have liked to see options for everyone but given Dell's current situation they need to focus and go after what they thought was the best markets. They tried then using the GA to target their traditional markets.

I personally would have gone a slightly different route in a couple of places but I can understand what they have done.

 

Had the new AW been a bit thicker so would the cooling of the laptop been better. Then a little opportunity to overclock the processor without using of G / A and Aw had the mmx graphics.

 

Thank the gods for this thread. Now please keep the BGA bashing here.

 

That would target a different segment though, many people are turned off by that little extra thickness.

 

Yes .. It quickly becomes the end on overclocking of the hardware now when everything will be so very thin.... The future comes with more throttling and heat problems ...

 

no raid options either for some reason

 

Purely a business decision by Dell. What you once favoured means nothing, only what brings maximum profits is cared for. Dell has done the numbers and for whatever reason they so should desire is the path they now walk.

The only thing we can do is speculate why this has changed, we cannot change it. Therefore we can either take it or leave it. If those who shall leave are less than those stay with those who now join, then this all will be a success for Dell.

Personally I think Dell are eyeing up the current market and shifting their product to suit to ensure they will get a piece of the action.

 

Hmm I have been thinking about this for a while now.

I have an AW15 and it fits my needs perfectly! 4710hq is more than enough for me and with XTU it never throttles I also have a 240watt PSU and I can overclock it 2 bins.

I look at my system this way. If I needed more I would of saved more for the 17 and got a 4980hq, I simply don't need it though. I only game and I do not do much that is CPU intensive. I just wanted something that was more portable in my eyes than the AW18 and also simpler in usage (SLI annoys me). The AW15 fits that perfectly. I don't really upgrade laptops and to be honest once they change the socket your stuck anyway. If you need more power buy a better one in the first place. I know there is a cost but is buying a slow CPU to then buy a faster actually cheaper?

The mobile GPU I would of liked to of seen this evolve into a slot in unit. Like installing a HDD. A module complete with fan etc.. So you can just swap it out. no fancy pasting or anything, just open up remove locking screen and latches pull back and out. Slot in new one. Would of been so easy and also opened up an entirely new market of Graphics card sales for laptops based on a standardised form factor. PSU's would of become needed based on the GPU, cooling could of been standardised into bottom to back or which ever direction. Cooling would of been something that the GPU vendor rather than laptop vendor could affect. Infact I might just patent it myself lol. (DEAR GOD someone read this and do it)

In the end I am not to blown out as for £1500 I got a killer laptop that I have swapped out my ram and M.2 + SSd drives, I get great battery life 5-6hrs with just web, I can carry it around easily without breaking my back and the build quality is great.

 

I guess it really is a case of 'each to their own' regarding this subject. If soldered components don't bother you, then who is anyone else to argue against it. I never set out to slate BGA - actually, as my baby AW 14 was stolen from my home recently, I'v been looking at replacing it for a couple of months now. I'll hold my hands up and admit that I too was contemplating a 15 or 17 from the new line up - odd as that may seem, given my attitude towards BGA.

For me, the deciding factor was cost. I could not justify spending close to £2,500 (in the UK) for something like a 17 with 4980hq/980m and a 3 year warranty.

To put my recent purchase into context when compare to the above machine, I recently bought an AW 18 with a 4930mx, 780m sli, 16gb, 512gbm mSata and 750gb HDD, Blu Ray for £1,800 with a 3 year warranty. Sure, my upgrade path on this platform is limited to 4940xm (which would be pointless ) and either 880m sli (not worth it as 780m sli is better) or 980m sli (requires a bit of work). The only other upgrades I can perform are ram and hard drives, so I guess you could say that to me sockets and slots as an upgrade path is relatively speaking a moot point. Still, for £700 or so less, I've got a machine that would kick a loaded 17 to the kerb and would be close to a GA with GTX 980 when pushed. I know bulky machines aren't everyones cup of tea, but it suits me just fine.

For others looking into the choice of a new 2015 model vs. an outgoing 2013/4 model, the benefit as I see it is 'wiggle room'. If you don't buy a top level spec like I did, you have room for upgrades as and when your pocket can allow. Wether the cost of those upgrades is worthwhile to the individual is down to the individual. I appreciate they may not be cheap, but those folk always have the choice of selling on the parts they have upgraded.

I can see the good and bad in both BGA and sockets/slots. I think my main agenda against sockets/slots is simply the fact that it can (in my humble opinion) castrate the potential lifespan of the machine.

 

That's cool I can understand that. The reason behind me getting the 17r2 admittedly was just for the graphics amp. Some people would never see the point in that but it perfectly fits with my current situation. Everyone has a right to like what they like.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

Well, I think this is fitting enough to drop a link.
http://na.alienwarearena.com/forums...ten-do-you-replace-upgrade-your-graphics-card