17" R5 Just How Bad?

I've been reading threads posted by enthusiasts that have been really critical of the latest generation of Alienware computers specifically about their throttling under load and I am curious whether this is affecting all of the newer 17" Alienware computers and whether it is an issue for real world applications and gaming or whether it is restricted to bench marking and overclocking.

I am in the market for a new computer and I want to know whether or not I am going to be having these problems myself. My current preferred build is the 17" with the i7-8750H, GTX 1060 GPU and a QHD display to be used for normal work and then at home an AGA with either a 2080 or 1080Ti for when I want to game.

My thoughts were that having the smaller GPU in the laptop will keep it lighter to carry (even if only because of the smaller power brick) and the AGA will provide the graphics grunt and keep the heat out of the laptop (to a large extent) when I am gaming. So with that build will I have an issue with throttling and overheating?

 

Please read @Papusan 's posts in this thread as well as this:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...rmance-explained-by-notebookcheck-net.808983/

He explains everything, but you need to take the time to read.

If you want a summary:
1) it's BGA. BGA is garbage. Because BGA is a FAILED BIN of a LGA chip. failed bin means the chip didn't meet silicon purity quality standards to be used in a LGA processor. I believe the only LGA processor that is similar quality to the *UNLOCKED* "HK" BGA processors is the 8700 Non K (fully locked) vs i9 8950HK or 7700 non K vs 7820hk. That means these chips run hotter, and have less overclocking headroom. So that means they are DISCARDED parts of LGA that Intel still needs to sell to get money from. BGA has its place. But not in "high performance" desktop replacement laptops, which could easily accept a LGA Processor if the engineers weren't so lazy, stupid and incompetent.

2) horrible quality on the cooling. Warped or woefully inadequate heatsinks, terrible thermal design, recycled platforms that were barely adequate for 4 core systems now being used with 6 core systems. News flash: a 6 core on the same heatsink will run HOTTER than a 4 core on the same heatsink if it's the same process and generation.

3) cancer firmware. Locked down. Limited to what Dell wants you to do. False advertisements (5 ghz!!! LOOK 5 GIGAHURTZ !!!!). Misleading. Viral marketing based on their "legendary" name to mislead newbies into thinking they are buying quality. You are limited to whatever overclocking parameters Dell (or other ODM's like MSI, Asus, Acer or even Clevo (those without a Prema Bios) limited you by their own choices, to protect the end users from themselves. They think end users are incompetent and stupid. They don't want end users tuning their own systems, because they think they will catch fire.

4) other stuff I'm not going to get into.


@Papusan @Mr. Fox

 

Thanks for replying @ Falkentyne but I have read Papusan's thread which is why my original post states I am not into overclocking or benchmarks and I do understand that a laptop CPU has always been inferior to a desktop CPU! I also don't care if it is locked down because I am not into overclocking and I am not reading Alienware's advertising.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the processor in your laptop, in your sig, also a BGA? If so then you are using one already and I guess you don't like it but BGA, like it or not, is what is being offered by nearly all laptop makers. Please don't rant at me about it.

My original question still stands with a small addition - 'So with that build will I have an issue with throttling and overheating' while using the AGA? My thoughts were that without the laptop GPU having to do any work the heat sink might be able to effectively keep the CPU cool while I am playing.

 

If you want the current alienware laptops as of today then you need to spend time and money on it.. What I mean is that you need to fix the thermal issues by repasting a better thermal paste and repading putting new thermal pads to balance the heatsink.. My main issue with the current models is thermal problem and tripod heatsink.. If you can live with that i guess your good to go in buying one.. also plus what @Falkentyne said..
http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...5r3-disassembly-repaste-guide-results.797373/

http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...ven-core-temps-due-to-uneven-heatsink.797477/

 

That second link is gold. Thanks for that.
You have to ask yourself why on earth did Alienware go for a tripod set up?

 

My point of view is that you are kinda overreacting, the reason "LGA" based laptops run is that they are twice as thick and often by enthusiasts are tuned and adjusted to run well. Out of the box Clevo's also run hot which is shown multiple times in reviews and have their fair share of issues.

The larger problem is just poor QC in most laptops these days and need to be adjusted, this goes for all laptops brands and types now.

 

No prob.. It's nice to share info.. The forum here is really nice and. its. members.. They educate you.. hehe..
No idea why they opt on that route.. If I'm going to guess it might be they are reducing the size of the laptop..

 

As you can see by my sig I am currently running a Clevo with a i7-6700K and a 1080 and I can vouch for the 'running hot out of the box' and needing a fair amount of tweaking to get it to run right.. The other downside to the Clevo is I use my computer at work and sometimes have HoI4 or another 4x game running in the background while I am in the office and because I don't have an integrated GPU the fans are running a bit and it is annoying. Don't get me wrong I like the Clevo but I am trying to come up with a better solution that suits me.

 

You are probably right but it was the wrong decision in my opinion. I've loved all my previous Alienwares and wouldn't have bought the Clevo's if I could have configured an Alienware to suit me when I was buying.

 

A lot of people here commenting on it dont have actual experience with these laptops (some do ofcourse) but its not just the so called "tripod" it makes the margin of error larger yes. But the main culprit have been too thick thermal pads on the GPU side (and to some extent the CPU side).

This is part of the QC story, if the correct thermal pads are used then the thermal are great. As I have posted multiple times the screenshots of while stress testing and a couple of other users as well. But most people have been focusing so much on just repasting and fairly poor results because of that.

It is **** that users have to fix the QC themselves. But most advocates against "so called" BGA laptops all have been repasting their own machines with extreme pastes such as Liquid metal thermal paste. Thats why I say pretty much any game laptop now out of the box by any manufacturer isnt great when it comes to cooling. I have yet to see one current machine with zero issues out of the box. More important is can it be fixed or not these days.

Yeah the tweaking is what I am talking about. For me gaming laptops always have compromises. So you kinda need to pick the compromises you can accept to live with. I just repasted and repadded my Alienware and it has been running great ever since. Especially when the ambient temps arent that high (25c and higher) I have yet to see my CPU go over 80c and the fans barely turn on.

 

@FrozenSolid You might have heard success stories of few people owning 17 r5 and after heatsink replacement the issues were reduced unlike early batches.
I recommend you choose 15 r3 or 17 r4 with 7820HK and GTX 1070 for better AGA performance esp. CPU bound games, Higher Physics scores in 3D mark.

 

MHW is CPU-bound even on 1080p

 

No its not, higher CPU speeds can improve your framerate, but it is not impacting GPU performance. Still I have yet to see the game placing more than 80% load on the cpu both in 1080P (which is the most likely resolution for CPU bottlenecking) and 1440P. More cores do improve the physics performance in MHW but that is also because the dreaded Denuvo encryption.

 

5820K @4.4 I'm seeing around 70-85% even load on all cores/threads.

GTX1080 @ 1950 / 5485. Ultra settings with volumetric fog off. Newest nvidia driver.

 

I run on mixed high and Ultra settings on a 1070 with volumetric on.

 

I've seen many complaints about BGA but this is just misinformation. This isn't how binning works and mobile processors are binned to run cooler and more efficient - as that is what is important for mobile computing! For an example of the opposite look at the AMD TWKR (if I remember right) that was highly overclockable but also had a high current leakage - they ran much hotter than a standard bin.

Having a problem being polite when reading this.

 

Cooler and more efficient? @Papusan ? @Mr. Fox
Is this why people have been getting 99C temps on these BGA processors?
Is this why people have been getting vcores exceeding *1.4v* on these Alienwares?

Oh look at the non tripod MSI GT63.
http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/msi-gt63-a-mistake.823297/

These processors are **NOT** binned to run cooler!!!
they are binned to run HOTTER.

Watts is amps * volts.
Higher volts=higher watts=higher temps.
Binning?

Binning is silicon purity.
Purer silicon runs at a LOWER VOLTAGE at a certain clock speed than badly pure silicon.
Lower voltage=lower temps.
Logic 101 here.
These processors get put into LGA systems, highest bins=K processors. Lower bins non K and locked SKU's.

BGA is FAILED BIN CHIPS.
Meaning these chips did not meet testing for LGA binning.
These chips will require MORE VOLTS to run stable at their non turbo ratio multipliers.
That means MORE HEAT.

And you start overclocking the unlocked BGA's? Voltage goes through the roof and so does power and heat!

The VERY BEST BGA bins are equal to the worst LGA bins.
Me and @Vistar Shook have two of the best 7820HK cpu samples. And both of us have problems running cinebench at 4.9 ghz with Liquid Metal, without the temps becoming unmanageable. Note: We both have the two world record spots for BGA garbage for cinebench.

5 ghz runs are impossible. CPU gets to 90C and the zener diodes have decided they've had enough and the laptop just shuts off and reboots. (Can't seem to avoid this. it isnt the VRM's giving out; MSI admitted they can handle the current, it's the zener diodes tripping them). Trying to tweak the PS Current Threshold 1, 2, 3 values in Core I/A Domain may or may not help slightly enough to finish a run, but setting PS Current Threshold 1, 2 and 3 to "256" causes the zeners to instantly reset the laptop as soon as power is applied in half a second.


That's why BGA is limited to 45W TDP. Because the chips run hotter than LGA and the cooling solutions are garbage too. Intel has to limit the chips to 45W because if they were 91W or 80W like their LGA counterparts, they would be thermal throttling all day, and they STILL thermal throttle unless you win the "motherboard lottery" and got a low VID soldered chip! MSI could have chosen to use the EXCELLENT cooling solution for the new 17" F7 and the WT75 in their GT75 Titan 8RG, but instead they used a 3 heatpipe aborted fetus trying to half-assed do everything, taking away half a radiator from GPU VRM cooling and sharing it with the CPU so they vomit heat on each other, instead of simply making a SEPARATE HEATSINK for single GPU configurations vs SLI configurations, instead of using the SLI configuration CPU heatsink for single card configurations!

Imagine the thermals if MSI had used this for their BGA Throttlebook:


(this is the WT75 and upcoming 6 core LGA F7 system).

Look at that GOOD CPU COOLING.

Instead, MSI used this for their throttlebook:


Yes folks.
This is the GT73VR / GT75VR heatsink with the middle heatpipe extended to a half radiator that was cut off the GPU VRM radiator (making the GPU VRM radiator also half size) and one GPU VRM heatpipe removed to make room for this.
(original GT73VR/GT75VR heatsink):





So.....why didn't they use the WT75 version for the 6 core GT75 Titan?
Because a SLI configuration exists on the motherboard. That CPU + GPU1/VRM system has to exist so that a slave GPU will have room for a 2nd heat block and GPU VRM cooling on the left side.

BUT THEY HAD TO PENNY PINCH AND SAVE MONEY. Instead of making a better CPU block for single card configurations, they just used the same CPU system for SLI and 1 card, to save money!!!! They already have a "different" primary GPU heatblock/heatpipe layout shape for SLI systems already (the GPU heatsink used for single card systems won't fit as the heatpipes will block the second card). So why not have designed it right for SINGLE CARD systems to begin with??

 

The GPU thermals are better with the current setup than their previous....

I dont know how how it would save costs because this setup is nothing less in complexity or materials.

 

Thanks for the suggestion but it has to be a 17" because I need the screen real estate for work and I would prefer to buy new because where I work reliability is essential. It is because of reliability I replace my laptop every 2 years.

 

Get a business laptop like Thinkpad for better reliability

 

I understand but what then for gaming? I work in a remote location and use my laptop every day for work and I game at night.

 

You could get both! Or get a precision with a Quadro GPU. They are not cheap but can run games. I have the P3200 which essentially performs like a GTX 1060.

 

Thanks for the suggestion but if I was going to buy two computers then I would buy a desktop and a laptop for work. I enjoy playing FPS and I think what I have just ordered is a good compromise.

I have ordered the R5 with i7-8750H, 1060 GPU, QHD screen for work and I'll add an AGA and an RTX 2080 for when I'm gaming.

 

Or, depending on your needs, check out HP's mobile workstations or high end gaming laptops. Sadly the Omens aren't the same sexy high end case they were for the first few years but they still pack a punch with up to a 1080 in them. Again not sure what your needs are but the HP mobile workstations can be some serious beasts but probably not the best choice if you want to game as well.

 

Hopefully that will do the trick for you!

 

Sounds like a good plan! You are using the AGA at home, connected through an external display, correct? Using Optimus to pipe the AGA output back to the internal display may noticeably impact performance of the RTX 2080.

I only have the 7700HQ, which doesn't draw nearly as much power as the 8750H, but my experience is if you turn on CPU Performance Mode and do some undervolting you can generally use it at max turbo speeds without a problem. The bios and ec limit the TDP to 45W without CPU performance mode enabled, and at 3.9Ghz it ought to be around 60W or so if you undervolt by -.150v. It can always benefit from a repaste (if anything to reduce the amount of fan noise generated from poor die contact) but you have a very high chance of being able to use it without modifications. Oh, and at least with the 7700HQ / GTX 1070, it came with a smaller heatsink than the 7820HK / GTX 1080. If they do the same with the new R5, you could buy the beefier 8950HK / GTX 1080 heatsink and install it to further reduce temps.

I am not a big fan of the QHD AUO TN panel. The one I used had some pretty bad color gamut, color banding that was visible while gaming, and poor contrast ratio. Having already seen the Chimei FHD TN panel I ended up just installing one of those in the 17R4. My 17R4 didn't support GSync though, so just keep that in mind if yours does and you ever want to try a panel swap yourself because it may cause compatibility issues.

 

Thanks for the suggestions. I plan to do a little stress test and check for uneven core temps and temps in general and I have already ordered some Fujipoly Ultra Extreme and some Arctic Silver 5 (I still have some IC Diamond) so I can re-paste and re-pad if I need to. I like the suggestion of getting the bigger heatsink and will probably go ahead and do that anyway.

Hopefully my screen will be okay but if not then I will do some research before whipping it out and replacing it.

Thanks again.

 

Use IC diamond instead of AS5.

 

IC Diamond is my 'go to' paste but I read that with the heat sink potentially not sitting squarely on the CPU a thicker paste might be better. Anyway I'll have the AS5 on hand if I need it.

 

Happened to see you on this thread - funny, I was strongly considering Omen at first too! But hard to find with a QHD screen, and a 1070 or 1080 GPU. CUK looked like the best source but they would need 6 weeks so I gave up. If I didn't mind 1060 and a 1080p screen though, Costco had a nice setup for $1,500, I remember. Then the price crept up to $2,200 range to get the better screen, more ram, etc. (and that's how I ended up with AW)

 

Personally I think two laptops is inevitable, unless you really don't care at all about portability/battery time. I know there are thin gaming laptops, but it's a compromise on everything then; maxq GPU, can never get the fastest CPU to work optimally, less hard drive space (a biggie for me for a workstation, maybe not for you).

I am considering returning my AW 17 R5 due to thermal issues and a persistent network disconnection issue every day which I am almost completely sure is related to the Killer Wifi. I've complained tons about it in the Lounge forum as I've tried everything, worked with Killer support, etc.

I read about the thermal issue everywhere, but I thought/hoped, maybe it's better now. But the best I can get with stable OC is barely above 1,100 Cinebench score. The retarded (I mean this in the true sense of the word, lol - as in, governed/slowed down on purpose) MacBook Pro with i9 even gets a 1020 or 1040 score. Dells own XPS 15 with the i9 gets an 1,115 or thereabouts. I wish I had that info before ordering my AW. (this is just CPU testing, not even with GPU running, to be clear - if it was only during GPU heat being produced, I wouldn't care)

Ask yourself, are you really okay with having a machine that weighs twice as much, costs more, has worse battery life, etc., than the XPS 15, yet requires overclocking to even score the same as the XPS 15 on Cinebench? Mine from the factory only got a 980 score! Even now, I don't get 1100, I just ran it again tonight and I got a 1073 score!

I didn't want to believe the negative posts that the CPU is useless, but it's true. You get the same turbo speed capability as the chip two models below (8750h). Other than 3 MB extra of cache, you will have a CPU that costs $200 more than the 8750h for no good reason. Again, I couldn't believe it. I thought, at least if I get even 20% more performance than the 8750h, great. If I had high temps but still got 1200 consistently in Cinebench, I wouldn't complain at all. But having to undervolt by 100 mV just to get my score into the 1,000+ score range is not good.

 

Actually I am getting the 8750H coupled with the 1060 for all the reasons you have quoted. Weight is not an issue as I have been carrying 17" DTRs to work every day for the past 10 years or more and it would be nice if I could get an all-in-one 17" DTR that weighed less than 4.5 kg but I've never found one and probably never will.

I am hoping that with the 8750H and the AGA I will get more than adequate gaming performance when I do want to game. Here is hoping anyway.

 

As I and brother @Papusan have tried to tell each and every one of you,
the ONLY laptop worth buying as a high end gaming desktop replacement is a Clevo P870 TM1 with a PREMA bios from HIDevolution or another Prema Partner shop.
The older MSI 16L13 was plagued thermal issues and firmware problems with "BGA" style cancer limitations (much of the BGA laptop code was recycled and used for their LGAbooks) that even a Prema Bios couldn't fully remove.

The upcoming MSI F7 (Evoc if bought from a Prema partner shop like HIDevolution, but make sure a Prema Bios will be made for this first) looks to actually have a decent cooling system for once, with 5 heatpipes for the CPU, without the GPU VRM's puking heat on the CPU cooling anymore. But it definitely won't be as well built as the Clevo. Plus there were issues on at least some systems where you could not output to an external monitor while in the Bios, if you were using the Nvidia GPU (iGPU completely disabled).

If you want something portable to do business work on, buy that $500 disposable BGAbook that Mr. Fox recently bought and save your money for a nice ITX build.

 

Ok I didn't see that part. Yep the 8750 is probably the sane choice. You might end up re-pasting anyway if you want the most performance with less fan noise though, but at least you won't be limited in total expected clock speed. I would do the same if I was going through it again although I'd want the 1070 I think. It's a sweet spot in terms of processing power per watt.

I did carry my 17 MB Pro to work semi-regularly which weighed about 7.5, and it wasn't too bad, but in a place like NYC where you're walking the whole way to work (or at least, you're not setting it down in a car, etc., the bag is always on you), it does get heavy and I didn't think I would want to carry it every day at that point. Obviously if you're commuting on train (commuter rail where you're not worried about theft as much) or car then it's much less of an issue.

Anyway good choice. I should have done the same. I have some 1080tis lying around, lol.

 

I've got news for you: every single performance laptop these days absolutely needs a repaste and an undervolt, regardless of brand. The entire industry is shoving high end, high power components into packages that cannot accommodate them.

 

That may be true. But check out this Asus ROG video from Linus - it hits 4.7 and maintains 4.3-4.4 Ghz, stock out of the box, nothing tuned. Granted, it's hitting 95 degrees or higher, but at least it's not throttling itself below 4.3, and probably undervolting and limiting to 4.2 would be enough if you really didn't want to re-paste it. (and to re-paste, it is easier to get the heat sink off, no need to remove the entire motherboard like with AW). It gets the advertised 4.3 Ghz boost with nothing else done. Big difference between that and me having to undervolt -100 mV just to get 3.7 Ghz. There's definitely still degrees of effectiveness in what these manufacturers are delivering.

[Spoiler: with repaste, undervolt, and the forced air he tapes on, they do get it to 5.0 Ghz throughout the whole Cinebench run.)

 

your computer is not going to last long if you're bouncing off 95C, your surrounding components will begin to degrade and fry. Just because the CPU can take the punishment doesn't mean its supporting components can.

 

At least it delivers what it says, and you can decrease temps by undervolting out of the box without repasting if desired. Sure wish my 17 R5 had worked like that. Now I'm stuck trying to return it, since I really don't want to do the much more complicated teardown just to attempt a repaste, and not know how much better it will get me on thermals. It has wasted a month of my free time so far. At least if I knew it got 4.3 out of the box at some temperature, I could plan on re-pasting down the line (or not, and just get the mobo replaced if it ever fies).

 

http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...950h-coffee-lake.810891/page-79#post-10741832


http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...950h-coffee-lake.810891/page-73#post-10735108

 

Interesting, Linus got 1200+ if I remember correctly out of the box on CB. I do wonder if they (Youtubers) get specially picked units for review. I wondered that as I was watching. Just made me angry watching it as they got to goof around and make that video and spend no more than an hour or two repasting, undervolting, duct taping their blower fan, and get it to 5Ghz.

 

The 5GHz CBR-15 score is flawed. The Videos from Linus are more like (bad) entertainment if you have nothing else to do.

 

Hehe, I agree completely. I usually hate his videos. The "5 Ghz" thumbnail made me curious which chip/laptop he was referring to though and I got sucked in to watching it.

 

They always get you with the catchy thumbnail.

 

5 GHz single core, not multicore.

 

Really? I thought with his blow-a-ma-tron setup he got 5Ghz on all cores long enough to run the Cinebench score. Maybe it was Prime 95 single core then. I skimmed through most of it so maybe I missed that he was doing a different benchmark at the end.

 

5 GHz, cannot be achieved on a BGA single power supply. 8950HK is already a tad unstable, the higher it clocks the more power it wants.

On 4.6 GHz my cpu scores only 1450+/-. Meaning it runs around 2/3 bins behind on a 8700K.

Bga is crap forget about it. Listen to @Falkentyne and @Papusan these things are possessed machines without you having the option to tune your machine the way you like (Dell cancer bios).

 

Look at 14:10 in the video - he hits 5.0 Ghz, 1569 CB score - so that is obviously the multi-core benchmark, not the single-core. It was six-core 5.0Ghz on that run.

 

1450 is really good if that's what you're getting. I hear you on the BGA issues - but a lot of it is in the bad pasting, isn't it... I'm doing a re-paste tomorrow, might swap/add some pads, and if i get scores/clock like yours, I will be very happy. If I get even 1250-1300 solid, that's great. MB Pro only gets 1030 or thereabouts. I am just not happy with my current 1080-1120 score range. Still better than MB Pro but once I saw how much more others were getting, I got hungry for MORE POWER, heheh.

LGA looks good but man, for the price of a similarly equipped LGA-book, which is $1,500-2,000 MORE than this one cost, I could keep this one, AND build myself a very high end desktop with an even better CPU than you can get in any notebook!

 

Lol that's way too low for 5Ghz....

https://hwbot.org/submission/3929118_drweez_cinebench___r15_core_i9_8950hk_1688_cb

This is a fully stable 5 ghz run. It scores over 100 points more.

 

I will also add - my previous MB Pro probably did not get much over a 700 score, if that (it was mid-2014). So if am doubling that with this one after re-paste, I am pretty much set. 100% increase in CPU capacity is great (thanks two +2 cores and higher clock). Getting 120% from 8086K is even nicer but not worth a 50% increase in cost, for my purposes/requirements.