The Notebook Review forums were hosted by TechTarget, who shut down them down on January 31, 2022. This static read-only archive was pulled by NBR forum users between January 20 and January 31, 2022, in an effort to make sure that the valuable technical information that had been posted on the forums is preserved. For current discussions, many NBR forum users moved over to NotebookTalk.net after the shutdown.
Good job iunlock!! Thanks for doing this. Always like to see a thorough comparison from its competitor.
From an Alienware 17 R4 standpoint, you are not going to get the best performance out of the box versus its competitor. But once its tuned, hands down the Alienware R4 get the thumbs up for having the best overall package. For something that is between 2-3k, you better get build quality with it and I'm thankful that the Alienware R4 hit it right on the donkey's a$$. I cringed when I see so much flex from cheap build quality on anything. Although the R4 has some faults, everything else does too. But boy, like what iunlock has listed of all the positive things that I also agree put the R4 on top of the food chain for the best overall package.
I find that your review on the msi is too harsh. My gt73 does not exhibit any of the issues you drill down on it for, and the videos are showing the worst case example of a gt73 which im sure can be said for any laptop be it alienware or msi. If you get a turd, it will be turd.
However this review is great for those who are prospective gt73 buyers as it will show what to look out for to prevent getting a lemon.
Cool thanks, is that 1.3V max or average?
Also sorry my question wasn't clear. I meant when the TDP does increase, will 4GHz still be enough not to hold it back then?
Very welcome. It's true that every company has their faults, but overall package wise the AW is clearly the winner, even more so once it has been repasted and fixed.
As stated this review is from my perspective and from my own experience. I am not loyal to any brand and just call it like it is.
There are things that can not be argued though like the build quality. The MSI's build quality for a machine that cost $2000+ is unacceptable, especially when their lower models like the GS share the same characteristics. It just depends on what the buyer is looking for and if they don't mind the build quality the GT73VR is a fantastic machine for what it is. If you can land one even cheaper, that's even better.
With these being laptops, people want durability and want quality. Most people look for the overall package and don't care about synthetic benchmarks that really don't translate to real world performance. Because the truth is, most people can get by just fine with even a GTX 1060 while traveling so the reality of things are very different than our 'wants.'
Also to add, since these are laptops that are designed for portability, even if some GT73VR's are not as bad as the unit that I have, people will also take into account that over time, this could end up being like the unit that I have. Mind you the unit that I have is a brand new unit so if it's already falling apart now before it's first oil change, what does that translate to in the future?
Trust me, I would not go easy on AW and I'd call it out just as much if not worse, because they have a higher standard to live up to after they had scraped the AW18. We've been slamming them hard for their initial batches of monkey assembled machines. - Somethings can be fixed, but poor build quality is unfortunately not one of them things.
I too run at 40x when gaming as running at 42x is just burning unnecessary fuel IMO...higher clocks for the games that I play have zero effect on gaming performance as most of them are GPU bound, with an exception of a few titles that do utilize the CPU heavily, but even then....there will be little to no difference at 42x than 40x to justify the heat IMO.
Very nice. Keep at it...once you find that sweet spot, put it through some tests (gaming etc...) and see if it's stable as most often times than not, even if it holds a certain voltage during a bench etc... that setting can fall when doing other tasks.
Yeah that's the only way I test it. +90 mins of BF1 seems to be the most brutal test I can find except for prime. Fyi that target was actually for 4.1, not 4. For 4 I'm just using an offset and no target but it seems something odd is going on below like -65/ 70mV where it just always returns the actual V back to the values for -65/ 70mV. This could be because of BIOS 1.0.9 but I don't wanna go-to anything else because the fan profiles are aids
Yeah sorry I have been only using that but I just wanted to state that only prime other than BF1 works it to the point of crashing. Why is prime a complete no no btw?
OK well I guess that's why it's so thin! It's a great laptop the AW R4.
But I'm liking the idea of my Xidax XM-11 better. I've got the option to run (2) 1070's or (2) 1080's
I could buy a whole new laptop with the price of some of these MXM 3.0 gtx1080 kits, with added additional cooling. And this is just for a single card, and upgraded cooling.
that's a clevo P870DM, you're basically having the best LGA desktop replacement laptop available on the market right now
if you want a smaller laptop maybe consider the AW13?
for upgradability there's the Tornado F5, 15 inch and quite thick but still smaller and lighter than a P870DM. I'm pretty sure you can install your MXM 1080 in it as well
The AW17R4 with the GTX 1070 is an excellent choice.
AW's are all bga so no swapping of anything there except the typical storage and RAM.
The MXM's between the MSI and DTR's are different.
The MXM's are different sizes. (Form factor)
Yea I agree, which really takes a hit on making sense of investing $3,000 on a laptop only to spend more than a third of that again to upgrade the GPU? Where's the logic? - It's unfortunate both ways...but at least with a bga you can sell it and upgrade, because with a dtr, you'd have to do that as well regardless. The market for AW is a lot better than Clevo, unless you find some clueless Timmy where mommy and daddy will pay a ridiculous price to buy a used DTR. I feel sorry for those people lol...
Sad truth. This is why we have to support dtr companies, but man they better up their game in build quality and design, otherwise they will become extinct.
Is there a thread somewhere that mentions the extent the newer Kaby Lake models of the AW 17R4 has 'fixed' the heat issues. I would like the AW17R4 for the design considerations, but I am relatively new to repasting and would prefer something that works moderately well stock. Otherwise, are there any services that will repaste an AW for me?
well, this is what dell web site tells us: Alienware 17.3” QHD (2560x1440) 120Hz TN AG 400-nits w/ NVIDIA G-SYNC and Tobii Eye-tracking
so it IS a TN panel. BUT - and it is a huge BUT:
"The 1440p panel had a very strong Delta-E accuracy score of 0.5 (0 is perfect), which is even better than the category average of 1.6."
(
http://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/alienware-17)
For example - ASUS G701 has 2.4
so AW actually has TN panel and it has level of TN quality but this level is comparable with IPS and at the same time it gives 120hz.
My Feb 6th gen 17R4 with 1080GTX was HOT .... My seventh gen April 17R4 1080GTX is HOT- few degrees lower but based on my limited experience they did not 'fix' do anything over the last quarter to address the issue. Looks like the only way is to play the return lottery and or repast.
well, as far as I can tell from my own experience people usually do not tell if something satisfies them and always ready to raise the concern. would be interesting to find the real statistics related to the heat issues. perfect if it would be divided by the brands and the years. like currently I have asus rog g751 with NVidia g980m and when I play crisis 3 the intel extreme tuning utility shows me the cpu temperature as ~80-85. it is already almost 3 years old machine and I don't see any signs of problems. so 90 in AW17R4 for me looks a little bit more but it is a 1080 gpu so I think it is still in a reasonable range for gaming. after that of course the question is how the whole system will be ready to keep this temperature. again - from my experience - my asus looks ok. it blows a lot of hot air from the vents but the keyboard is nicely cool. I have an 8 years old acer which already killed two ssds and one wifi card but it is still alive.
I also own g701vi from asus, I like this screen more than qhd in aw/clevo, both have same screen
but fhd IPS in aw17r4 is still my favorite, dont try new qhd in aw17, but pretty sure dont enjoy it
Thank you ,
But in all the bentchmarks MSI 7RF kick Alienware in CPU and GPU! I have MSI 7RF and my friend has ALienware, I agree the material in alienware is better but MSI in gaming is much more bettter that alienware
What is your fire strike, wprime v1.55, and highest cpu oc?
Go look on 3dmark - > Fire Strike under 7820hk + GTX 1080 notebook -> Filter GPU count to 1...
... And tell me what you see ....
Also with gaming, there's no difference lol... The gaming experience is pretty even under normal to high settings across the board.
Even in extreme conditions, which your msi does not accomplish, a 10fps gain from a desktop when you are already getting 100+fps is not going to make any gaming experience any more extravagant lol.
@iunlock: How did you get hold Razer Blade Pro, its similar to MacBooks with its looks, I'm eager to see thermal performance or throttling after Conductonaut/Kryonaut. Keep us posted.
Dude listen, I'm from UK also but with all due respect, ownordisown is a lovely guy but tests the units for about 5 minutes before posting a review. He does no investigation into causes, does no modifications to resolve any issues, sees only one unit and had no direct relationship with Dell. Many times he has posted expressing gratitude or advice from Team LHz and iunlock has also featured on his show as an expert consultant!
In short, review is flawed big time based on one unit he received from each manufacturer (note this was a skylake unit too which is far less capable out of the box stock than kabylake).
If I were you I'd listen to
@iunlock 's and the rest of Team LHz advice, they see hundreds of units, for many laptop manufacturers, have a direct relationship with these and regularly tear them apart to understand issues, limitations and provide fixes free of charge for the community.
For a professional full breakdown review of alienware vs MSI, check out the
@iunlock review in this forum...
Maybe he unbox it like a lot owners and start using the machine from the start? Did you really expect he should start modify the laptop before the review and video?
I would say this is Apple vs. Apple
I don't think he modified the MSI unit either
Or maybe the video man
@hmscott know?
I don't think other reviewers either would modify laptops before the review.
It's what I have said for years, if reviewers don't go far beyond opening the box and giving shallow reviews of what they find, they are hardly worth using for deciding what to buy.
Owner / user forums like NBR give much better input as to what to expect, what to look for when you get your unit, and what to do when you find problems.
@iunlock and anyone that has worked on and/or owned the laptop or related model from that brand will have far better and more useful advice than someone that touched a laptop only briefly and then reviewed that laptop only in the shallowest level of hands-on experience.
Most high-end laptops need some software tuning, even just undervolting makes a huge difference in benchmark and gaming results when it comes to temperature and thermal throttling. Reviewers could and should make this a standard part of their reviews.
It does mean they will need to spend a lot more time with the unit, tuning the undervolt takes time, but it's what every owner should do these days - since Haswell, and they would be doing a service to their readers / viewers by doing so. Rejecting a laptop due to thermal throttling because it hasn't been undervolted is a shame.
For Clevo's and similar laptops it would be great if the reviewer can do physical tuning, repasting and fitting the heatsinks, but it's unlikely they will get permission from the companies to do this physical work on loaner laptops.
Those laptops get used / sent out to multiple reviewers, the results will vary depending on reviewer's rework, which really just says that Clevo and the resellers should do that physical tuning work before sending them out for reviews - and for every unit sold to end users.
Given the undervolting is unique to each laptop, the vendors should start putting the tuning in the BIOS and tune them before they go out. For the bad paste / heatsink fitment issues almost every Clevo laptop has, the vendor should resolve those issues before shipping to the end user.
Either way, with the poor QA / testing these laptops are getting these days before shipping, real hands on tuning needs to be done to each laptop before anyone can give an opinion on a laptop's true potential. And, if reviewers won't or can't do that tuning, they really can't give an accurate review of the laptop.
These days as a new laptop owner you need to undervolt at the least, for many laptops that will be enough, otherwise you are going to need to get in there and re-paste, shim, and maybe even refit your cooling for better contact performance. Check the forums for owners feedback about their experiences.
Another way to say it is, if you expect these laptops to work to optimal performance out of the box, your expectation is unreasonable and won't be reached very often.
This is why I always recommend that people look beyond just one review, because the reality is very different than what is being portrayed in many of the basic reviews. ownordisown is a great guy indeed and I have much respect for him. I value his efforts in putting up videos to show out of the box numbers.
The reality that we have to keep in mind as consumers is that we can't go into buying a system at this level and not expect to at least tune it.
Like car engines, not all silicon are created equal so expecting too much from an untuned engine is unreasonable due to the nature of how things really are.
All systems must be tuned and highly recommended to do a proper repaste, but that can also introduce more variables for massive amounts of inconsistency if not done properly.
Does having a system run like it's suppose to out of the box a good thing? Of course, but again...if you're buying a gaming laptop and plan on pushing the system to its limits, it is without a doubt unreasonable to expect a miracle without both proper tuning and a proper repaste.
I would say it is unreasonable to expect an Apple vs Apple from gaming laptops that clearly need to be at the very least tuned.
We all know that these laptops are like freshly built car engines. You can't expect to put a freshly built engine in a car, take it to the track and expect it to product results anywhere close to its real potential.
There is very little value in comparing stock systems as they are both (equally) not in their peak state.
The reality of these things needing to be tuned and properly repasted is no secret...it's just a reality we have to live with right now, which is fine for us enthusiasts.
For the masses....well....some of these brands can stay stock and if kept stock it'll do fine....no biggy...
Most of even the mainstream YT'ers don't mod their systems...that is why it needs to be taken in with a grain of salt.
Always World Class with your input. Thanks for that.
As I've explained above, it's definitely the reality where comparing these things stock for stock hold very little value due to the nature of what we're dealing with here.
You've nailed it with what you've stated in your last sentence:
"if you expect these laptops to work to optimal performance out of the box, your expectation is unreasonable and won't be reached very often."
Here's another 2 reviews of latest Alienware 17R4
One and
twoposted in the *Official* nVidia GTX 10xx Series notebook discussion thread.
Don't expect every sole out there tune their machines right out of the box. Some will newer open their laptop, even for re-paste or cleaning. They should... But this isn't the world we live in
Yeah, You can say it this way... But It's only the way the reviewers do it... Can't do much with it!!
Then you have to call it Apple vs. Apple This is what people get out of the box. Same as the reviewers get the package from Dell, Msi, Asus, Clevo, Gigabyte, Acer, resellers osv.
Oh no, I don't expect every person to tune their machines, which is the problem at hand, however, some ODM's offer laptops that can be ran stock just fine, yes including the new Kaby 17R4, if left stock.
I see your point about it being Apples to Apples, but it's not an ideal comparison due to the fact that they are not representing the true potential of the hardware.
@iunlock: Did you replace the entire motherboard on Razer blade after burning out the PC using 1080 GPU? Or did it hold pretty nicely. We are interested to know, just post the thermal results at stock paste/settings.
I've been saving up for the MSI GT73VR for a while now, just that I haven't run into anything the chunks my current lappy to want to pull the trigger on a purchase. I really liked your review, and the pictures on page 4 that showed how filthy the MSI got has me leaning towards Alienware now especially since price wise they are extremely close now counting the sale that is going on. However I do have some concerns if you could care to educate me thanks.
- 1st problem for me is the big lack of USB 3 ports. My current setup requires three ports as I connect two external 2TB hard drives plus a mouse which means I'd need a USB hub. If I'm understanding this right, the USB port can only power up to 5w, which both my HDs drain. Even if I was to use a USB hub and plugged them both in via the one connection it wouldn't work? I should be looking for USB hub with it's own power cable to mainlines if such a thing exists er something like that?
- I am only looking to purchase a GTX 1070 version for the best price performance, however in the UK the only available configuration is with an I7 7700HQ rather than a HK. How good or rather how bad is this processor compared with a mildly overclocked HK version? Also there has been many bad temperature stories so I'm assuming if I do go ahead with this less demanding solution I should be 'cool' to go? ;o
- Notebookcheck says all the processors support up to DDR 2400, Alienware are selling 2667 sticks as an option so, how does that work do the 2667 only operate at 2400 levels or something else? IE: It's a scam?
- Can you elaborate on what these line issues the QHD screen has? 1070s are only shipped with the 1440p screen here in the UK.
- I guess lastly should I be holding onto my wallet and wait for any sort of tech update / new laptop releases nearer the end of the year or not. As far as I know Nvidia won't have any GPU release this year and I dunno if an Intel refresh would be significant or not.
Problems? See this thread at archive.org.
